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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Npd Thread Part 8
caregiver9000
♀ Member
Member # 28622
Default  Posted: 8:31 AM, December 7th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It WILL help with treatment, because then we can say (level 2 on the physical violence scale, but level 9 on the self-absorbed no empathy scale). Helps the therapist figure out what issues to attack the hardest, and may also help in court battles, and if the client moves and starts therapy with another therapist....

Does anyone actually have experience with their NPD getting therapy? Stretch doesn't see anything wrong with him or his actions. He likes himself and he likes being the way he is, he has no interest in listening to anyone who will tell him he is wrong or who will expect him to do anything HARD. I hope to get court mandated treatment but have read that it isn't often effective in that NPD's just learn new skills or hone the old ones and get better at disguising or faking. Treatment is training on how to better fool the world. Back to thinking branding is a reasonable thing. And at the same time deeply disturbed that living with this man has caused me to share a perspective in even the smallest of ways with Hitler...


Me: 43, independent, happy, despite co-parenting with a lower muppet
FT "Stretch" (and Skew!) ;)
DS 12 DS 9
S 5/2010
D 12/2012

Posts: 5307 | Registered: May 2010 | From: a better place
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 11:58 AM, December 7th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just a crazy thought. Perhaps these people are doing away with the label because they cannot really test it because a NPD doesn't go to therapy?

Who knows? But it's a disservice to do away with this "label". Those who have to deal with them need help to understand what they are dealing with.

It is good to have a scale, because as others here have said, not all NPD's are alike in everything. There are differences of degree in a lot of the traits.

Caregiver, I like how you put that they can learn "skills" to hide the NPD. It makes a lot of sense to me, especially if the NPD is intelligent. The intelligent ones can see that a certain behavior is not working (kids do too) and they may not do that behavior because it doesn't get them their goals. I know we all do this to a degree, but I think it is the degree that is important.

I know over the years I would try to get WH see someone else's point of view in a disagreement he had. Sometimes I could see him really appear to be trying to understand....to empathize. He would have a bewildered look on his face at these times. But me, being the optimist about human nature, just saw the effort he was trying to make, and not the reality that he did NOT have that empathy. It was like a child really trying, and to this day, I don't believe he was faking that effort, albeit for a very short time, and in an odd way, I found it a little endearing that he was trying. Could he do it? Now, that's the million dollar question. He may have faked empathy at these times, but usually I don't think he really felt it.

Just had an AHA moment. I think my WH could sometimes INTELLECTUALLY acknowledge that another had different feelings than him, or that they were upset about something that he didn't agree with. BUT, I don't believe he could truly empathize the other person's feelings. I believe sometimes he knew intellectually that he was expected to act in a certain way and did, but the feelings?

All so superficial, and I bought into it all.

My WH was/is so charming that he could charm the birds out of the trees. He was so good at it, that he seldom had to resort to being mean and vengeful. He gave me what he knew I wanted to hear to control me, and I got addicted to his words.

So, there are different scales and degrees. But there should still be an overall label.

My son has ADD. He gets an IEP (Individual education plan) because not every child is the same and their strengths and weaknesses are different. I feel it should be the same with some of these definitions with personality orders. There has to be some kind of category that they fall into and then list the degrees and scales.


Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
letting_go
Member
Member # 13774
Default  Posted: 6:56 PM, December 7th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I wanted more information about narcissism and found this link to a book on google books.

H has told me on numerous occasions that he is unable to empathize or sympathize with people. He feels pain; however, he does not feel the pain of others. He's honest with me about what he feels. He just can't relate to me or anyone for that matter when it comes to validating their feelings.

There are other things that I have noticed which I don't feel like discussing right now. A couple of our MCs have hinted NPD but sense we were attending sessions for me, because there was something wrong with me.


http://books.google.com/books?id=uXhVr0wSx6sC&pg=PA149&dq=the+unstable+narcissist&hl=en&ei=WNX-TMPZMMKblgeiw9H6CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=the%20unstable%20narcissist&f=false


"To change and to improve are two different things."
Anonymous. German proverb.

"It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men." Frederick Douglass (1818-1895)


Posts: 3704 | Registered: Feb 2007
NaiveAgain
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Member # 20849
Default  Posted: 7:49 PM, December 7th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh, honesttoafault....they will then fall under the antisocial/sociopath label....they are not walking away like normal people...and no, they very rarely seek treatment anyway, but they are forced sometimes thru court orders


Original WS D-Day July 10, 2008. Kept lying, he is gone.
New WS (2 EA's, no PA) 12-3-13
If you don't like where you are, then change it. You are not a tree.

Posts: 14917 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Ohio
veritas
♀ Member
Member # 3525
Default  Posted: 9:13 PM, December 7th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The ex has been in therapy several times over the years. He did exactly what he does with everybody: turn on the artificial charm, try to figure out what they want to hear, and deliver it.


Actions unmask what words disguise.
Love many; trust few; and always paddle your own canoe.
When you win, you teach; when you lose, you learn.

Posts: 10164 | Registered: Feb 2004
sadtoo
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Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 9:51 PM, December 7th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think this is a good thing that they are reassigning some of these personality disorders. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed how some of them seem to "overlap".

I don't think they are going to do away with the BEHAVIOR. They are just going to reassign a name for it. That's how I understand it anyway. Plus, they are going to tighten up the diagnosis so it's not so all over the place.

The way I take it is if you just have a few traits, you're basically just a major asshole. If you fit the bill and answer "yes" to 1-10 you're a __________ and can't be helped.

Does anyone actually have experience with their NPD getting therapy?

Remember mine was a police officer? Gawd. Can you even imagine that lunatic with a badge and a GUN?? Well, it didn't go well and he was in trouble ALL-THE-TIME. He was suspended several times and ordered to undergo a psychological examination on several occasions. These are the test results that I found after I threw him out of the house. The ones that said:

Poor Decistion Making Capabilities

Narcissistic Personality Disorder with Sociopathic Features.

Not Recommended for Law Enforcement Duties.

Oh, it went on and on and on. He went to therapy and of course he'd been "railroaded" by a Sergeant who was "jealous" of him. He had never done any of the things they had accused him of...it was all lies...etc.

All LIES. I read the internal affairs WAR & PEACE BOOK of review from his file that was here in the house after I threw him out and it literally made me physically ill for weeks. I could not believe that I had married this sick monster. He was a total chameleon. The person I was reading about was not how he had presented himself to me. It was FREAKY!!

One other time we went to MC. But it was really IC for me because I was "abusing him by wrongfully accusing him of adultery." He insisted that I get on medication and find out "what's wrong with me" because I was "destroying our marriage." During my therapy, my therapist requested that he come to a session. He made several excuses and finally came. He was mad about it taking too much time out of his busy schedule. Then they "tested" him and he was mad about that. Then they took him in and talked to him about something...to this day I'm not sure what it was...the next thing I know he is SCREAMING at the therapist, "FUCK YOU!! I don't have to listen to this shit!! This is HER FUCKING PROBLEM!!! He went storming out. I walked in to where they were and the psychiatrist said, "He's a sociopath." That was it. He never came back and they started treating me as an abused spouse.

Believe it or not, I was shocked. I didn't really think it was that bad. That's how sick I was at the time.

[This message edited by sadtoo at 9:52 PM, December 7th (Tuesday)]


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7927 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
rainagain
♀ Member
Member # 14917
Default  Posted: 9:53 PM, December 7th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And so the brand would be...(instead of the capital letter N) the letter A for antisocial or the letter P for psychopath?

I have to same the new DSM name sounds a little scarier and I won't then be saying,
"No, narcissism doesn't just mean you like to look at yourself in the mirror a loT"

Plus, the desciption is exactly him! (just as it was with the old NPD).


Now, faith is being sure of what you hope for and certain of what you cannot see. Heb 11:1
I done been through the pain and the sorrow the struggle is nothing but love. Maino
Me: Divorced BS 49
DS22, DD19, DS17

Posts: 1277 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Massachusetts
veritas
♀ Member
Member # 3525
Default  Posted: 10:12 PM, December 7th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And so the brand would be...(instead of the capital letter N) the letter A for antisocial or the letter P for psychopath

I didn't explain very much in my first post about it, so I'll further clarify.

Antisocial Personality Disorder (aka Psychopath) has been around for years. The ex's brother is actually a diagnosed APD.

NPD has not been shifted to APD. At this point, it is seen as a separate disorder, and this has caused some dissension because most people have narcissistic traits, some of which are healthy and necessary.

However, most of the people who are currently described as narcissistic actually have a lot of antisocial/psychopathic tendencies. As such, instead of being treated as Narcissists, they'll be given their proper due as psychopaths. I'm all for it.

@sadtoo: the ex has pulled out a knife on someone at a staff meeting and threatened a coworker to the point where he felt in fear of his life. He defamed them both so badly that most people actually took his side.

[This message edited by veritas at 10:34 PM, December 7th (Tuesday)]


Actions unmask what words disguise.
Love many; trust few; and always paddle your own canoe.
When you win, you teach; when you lose, you learn.

Posts: 10164 | Registered: Feb 2004
lied2
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Member # 1807
Default  Posted: 11:18 PM, December 7th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

the ex has pulled out a knife on someone at a staff meeting and threatened a coworker to the point where he felt in fear of his life.

And he didn't do jail time?

These people somehow seem to come out on top after crap like that. It is scary

I am for anything that makes the whole disorder clearer. Mind you given the success they have treating it I doubt it will have much effect.


The grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence. It is astro turf.

The essence of love is not what we think or do or provide for others, but how much we give of ourselves.


A clean house is the sign of a broken computer.


Posts: 8196 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Ontario, Canada
sadtoo
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Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 11:45 PM, December 7th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@sadtoo: the ex has pulled out a knife on someone at a staff meeting and threatened a coworker to the point where he felt in fear of his life. He defamed them both so badly that most people actually took his side.

V, OMG. Did they call the police? Were charges filed? I can't imagine with witnesses that he will get off from this...

But these creeps are so freakin' slippery. Who knows.


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7927 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
caregiver9000
♀ Member
Member # 28622
Default  Posted: 12:05 AM, December 8th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I really am not trying to make this funny, but all I can think of is "These are not the droids you seek." Jedi mind powers.

Somehow, through charm, repetition, speaking loudly and often, intimidation and fear, just talking until everyone else is confused and exhausted, or creating situations which make others act crazy so they can go "SEE? I told you she was crazy!" Their ability to create an alternate reality is SCARY!!!!


Me: 43, independent, happy, despite co-parenting with a lower muppet
FT "Stretch" (and Skew!) ;)
DS 12 DS 9
S 5/2010
D 12/2012

Posts: 5307 | Registered: May 2010 | From: a better place
NaiveAgain
♀ Member
Member # 20849
Default  Posted: 7:29 AM, December 8th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ok...there is another site dedicated to outing these kind of people and helping the survivors (moslty APD, but again, I believe NPD is pretty much the same thing)....and here is the research they found that has been done about the people that attract APD/NPD....

Traits of targeted women

The research both bloggers quoted described a particular situation—people walking down the street, and how vulnerable they might be to being mugged. It should not be generalized to describe all victims of psychopaths. After all, how many of us were involved with muggers?

Consider the research by Dr. Liane Leedom on women who were targeted by psychopaths. She found that they have three traits in common:

* Extraverts. The women are outgoing, competitive, strong-willed and liked excitement. Sometimes they are free-spirited.

* Cooperative. They are high in empathy, tolerance and compassion. They value getting along with others, and are willing to compromise their own interests for the larger picture.

* Invested in relationships. They like being around people. They are sentimental and focus on special moments.


Totally fits me to a T, and now I understand why I have known 3 of these kinds of guys.

Also, this research was just on women, there are men victims also, and if I find research about what kind of guys draw these predatory women, I will post that also.

[This message edited by NaiveAgain at 7:32 AM, December 8th (Wednesday)]


Original WS D-Day July 10, 2008. Kept lying, he is gone.
New WS (2 EA's, no PA) 12-3-13
If you don't like where you are, then change it. You are not a tree.

Posts: 14917 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Ohio
veritas
♀ Member
Member # 3525
Default  Posted: 8:06 AM, December 8th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And he didn't do jail time?

These people somehow seem to come out on top after crap like that. It is scary

Well, you see, what had happened was... he "only" pulled the knife out while they were arguing and started playing with it. He didn't put it to his throat or point it at him. So it was an implied threat and since the other guy was unpopular, it was waved away. The second incident happened in another country, and the other guy was from a 3rd country, and it was also waved away in a wave of "boys will be boys" especially when they're away from home, blah blah.

I am for anything that makes the whole disorder clearer. Mind you given the success they have treating it I doubt it will have much effect.

Especially since apparently, there are some people who don't believe that NPD exists. I'll be more than happy to give the NPDx YOUR cell number so you can get his utterly insane messages...

[This message edited by veritas at 8:07 AM, December 8th (Wednesday)]


Actions unmask what words disguise.
Love many; trust few; and always paddle your own canoe.
When you win, you teach; when you lose, you learn.

Posts: 10164 | Registered: Feb 2004
letting_go
Member
Member # 13774
Default  Posted: 3:21 PM, December 8th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Especially since apparently, there are some people who don't believe that NPD exists. I'll be more than happy to give the NPDx YOUR cell number so you can get his utterly insane messages...


"To change and to improve are two different things."
Anonymous. German proverb.

"It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men." Frederick Douglass (1818-1895)


Posts: 3704 | Registered: Feb 2007
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 5:37 PM, December 8th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Consider the research by Dr. Liane Leedom on women who were targeted by psychopaths. She found that they have three traits in common:

* Extraverts. The women are outgoing, competitive, strong-willed and liked excitement. Sometimes they are free-spirited.

CHECK!

* Cooperative. They are high in empathy, tolerance and compassion. They value getting along with others, and are willing to compromise their own interests for the larger picture.

CHECK!!

* Invested in relationships. They like being around people. They are sentimental and focus on special moments.

CHECK!!

Especially since apparently, there are some people who don't believe that NPD exists.

Yeah...believe it or not, there are lots of people who think that NPD is just someone who looks at themselves in the mirror all the time.

Greek Mythology:
The Greek youth Narcissus was exceptionally proud, in that he disdained those who loved him. As devine punishment he fell in love with his own reflection in a pool, not realizing it was merely an image, and he wasted away to death, not being able to leave the beauty of his own refection.

So from that, there are people who think that NPD is looking in the mirror at yourself too much.

V-they can call my X-Dumbass too and listen to his blather.


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7927 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
Clearview
♀ Member
Member # 29565
Default  Posted: 7:51 PM, December 8th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If anyone is interested, Sam Vaknin has tons of videos posted on youtube. Very informative and straight from the horses mouth, as it were.
It's like a window into your narcissists mind, the very place they don't want you to go.

Posts: 166 | Registered: Sep 2010
HappilyUnMarried
♀ Member
Member # 21299
Default  Posted: 8:45 PM, December 8th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have been hearing about the change in NPD classification since this summer. It has fascinated me. I have discussed this, in detail, with several mental health professionals.

One psychologist told me the real reason for the re-classification. The classifications are closely tied to the codes insurance companies use for claims and treatments. The purpose for classifying any disorder is to outline, specifically, the recommended course of treatment for the insurance company and doctor. It all has to do with how much (or little) money they are willing to pay out, for how long, and to whom.

So why will NPDs lose their distinctive classification? Because they do not think they have a problem. They are happy with who they are. The don't seek treatment. They wouldn't follow treatment even if they were diagnosed! So in the eyes of mental health professionals and insurance companies, it is not a disorder if they don't want treatment and can "cope" outwardly in society. And NPDs do cope. They are actors, politicians, sports stars, doctors, cops, lawyers, etc... they often "thrive" with their condition. It's almost a desired trait in politicians.

Now when it "crosses over" to APD... well, that's different. They need a classification because they very often are brought to the attention of mental health professionals and the court of law for their conduct. They rarely get by in our society.

NPDs "just" do severe psychological damage to their victims. APDs can cause physical damage. My son is APD (a living hell). APDs have many of the traits of NPDs AND MORE. I can see why they want to put them in the same spectrum.

My ex is NPD. He is charming on the exterior. He has a good job. He tries to mimic (sometimes successfully) a real person. He won't "get caught" doing anything illegal because he doesn't like to be shamed. He's sneaky and deceiving. He lies so naturally. NPDs suck in their victims and do their damage slowly. Damage that people have a hard time understanding until they are caught in a NPDs web.

My son the APD? People are charmed by him initially, but his erratic behavior soon shows through. Anger, physical outbursts, breaking things, no regard for authorities or the law, etc...

Both disorders, in my personal classification, will always be "disorders". Both types cause significant damage to others. But the insurance companies don't give a crap about the damage that NPDs inflict and that's what counts. They certainly won't pay for something the patient doesn't think they need.

[This message edited by HappilyUnMarried at 9:20 PM, December 8th (Wednesday)]


True happiness comes from within, not from someone else.  Don’t make the mistake of waiting on someone or something to come along and make you happy

Posts: 1291 | Registered: Oct 2008
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 9:02 PM, December 8th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Like they always say...follow the money.


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7927 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
MaleableReality
♀ Member
Member # 22451
Default  Posted: 8:58 AM, December 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Been a while, sorry I disappeared, but reading through the post from new members of our sick little club, I am getting those "yup" moments and nodding my head. Man, they are all alike.

So, my stbxNPD is very calm these days. He's spent the better part of the summer dealing with a "crazy" neighbor who is pursecuting him. As much as I give the physical cues that I don't need to hear about it, everytime he drops/picksup kids, I get the long drawn out story of how awful its been dealing with this lunatic, how he's being arrested, they have a court date for a protection order, etc. My only communication has been "are the kids safe?" and he assures me they are, so I just nod politely and say nothing. I might add a "they must be hard for you" and that's it. I've gotten really good at NOT engaging with him.

But the NPD struck me yesterday pretty hard. Both my kids have their school concerts this week. They're very excited and naturally want their loved ones there to see them perform. When I handed him the dates I asked if HE would invite his parents. He said he'd take care of it. I'd rather let him do that as he clearly does not want me involved with them any longer. So, sent a text as a reminder yesterday and he responded that it was just going to be him, he had not invited his parents. His mom has been extra cranky lately and "trust me, you don't want to deal with it."

Frankly, I couldn't care less. Its not about me. I can certainly say hello, give hugs and then sit down and enjoy my kid's concert. I don't think 5 minutes of any level of crankiness is too much to pay for my kids knowing their grandparents came to their concert.

Afterward, I was just thinking, see, this is what he does. He doesn't want to deal with his parents, so he decides on his own not to invite them, then tells me he's doing it to spare ME. No thought at all for what the kids want. It makes my heart hurt for them. Next time, I'll just invite them myself. I shouldn't even have mentioned them to him and just done it.

Why do I still treat him like a human being?


Posts: 64 | Registered: Jan 2009
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 8:16 PM, December 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Why do I still treat him like a human being?

Because you're a human being and it's NORMAL to treat other people like human beings.....

It's not normal to think and rethink everything we say to NPD's because they ALWAYS have an ulterior motive and they are always LYING.


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7927 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
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