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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Npd Thread Part 8
caregiver9000
♀ Member
Member # 28622
Default  Posted: 7:14 PM, April 25th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

jj, you kill me.

meh, indeed.

The "unconditional love" thing. I got the argument from Stretch that there was no. such. thing.

Well, I disagree. I think it does exist. But, love/respect for oneself trumps all else. Not selfishness, but self preservation. I don't love you unconditionally let me stand in the middle of the road and let you run over me with a car to prove it love. That is NOT love that is stupidity. But love you flaws and all? Want you to be the best possible you, help you to overcome any addiction or shortcoming? Stay with you when the going gets tough, shoulder part of your burdens, share my flaws and intimate feelings and fears- YES.

I never attach how I feel for what you can do for me. Or what you allow me to do for you. I care, and unless caring for you makes it IMPOSSIBLE to care for me, then that love is there and will not change.

"To thine own self be true." And that self is giving and loving, but if loving you hurts everyone else then.... well, can't be love.

How did it get to be so complicated? I thought people were basically good and love was something you worked at. This seething underbelly of emotions and the darkness of the human spirit... I can't look at it too closely.

The (((tribe))) regularly restores my faith and spirit.

Quick! Somebody be funny!

[This message edited by caregiver9000 at 7:15 PM, April 25th (Monday)]


Me: 43, independent, happy, despite co-parenting with a lower muppet
FT "Stretch" (and Skew!) ;)
DS 12 DS 9
S 5/2010
D 12/2012

Posts: 5307 | Registered: May 2010 | From: a better place
toughgirl8
♀ Member
Member # 29812
Default  Posted: 9:29 AM, April 27th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Don't think I have anything funny today, sorry... but my H said he loves our kids unconditionally, but his love for me is conditional. And it's always been about his wants and needs.

Caregiver - I definitely approached my M with :

But love you flaws and all? Want you to be the best possible you, help you to overcome any addiction or shortcoming? Stay with you when the going gets tough, shoulder part of your burdens, share my flaws and intimate feelings and fears- YES.

I certainly consider not senseless stupidity, but acceptance of your partner and loving them, flaws and all during good times and bad. Support, trust, respect, love through all obstacles, that is what I committed to do. I guess my H only committed to that IF when he said jump, I asked how high.

That is not respect, it's subordination to me. And I haven't been able to give it to him. Boy am i a b----!


Me-37
WH-41
M-12 yrs
D Day-3/2010
4 kiddoes
Some may say I have a short temper, I say I have a swift and assertive reaction to bull sh't. ;)

Posts: 327 | Registered: Oct 2010
caregiver9000
♀ Member
Member # 28622
Default  Posted: 10:26 AM, April 27th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I can usually find funny or make it in a pinch. so no worries.

I don't think they do love the children unconditionally no matter what they say. Of course I heard that too. But loving those children unconditionally means being faithful to them too. It means you don't put your need for internet sex above their need for security and constancy. It means you don't play financial games with your spouse to prove you have control. You don't let their lives get turned upside down because you convinced yourself that you weren't "happy" and you deserved WHATEVER they thought they deserve.

I have looked into the faces of my children through this shitstorm. My seven year old is sucking his thumb more than he ever did as an infant. And when he takes his thumb out of his mouth the anger and potty mouth to contrast with thumb sucking is mind boggling and disturbing. Yeah, the loving father decided his happiness was worth risking that.

Love the kids unconditionally? No fucking way and no one who cheats and plays games with the divorce process after, disappears and disappoints children, puts the life of their mother at risk through STD's has a clue what love is.

That is more game playing in my opinion. That is just one more way of the NPD fuckers trying to prove they ARE normal and that what they don't feel for us is our fault, because of course they love the innocent children. Until being a parent interferes with them being themselves.


Me: 43, independent, happy, despite co-parenting with a lower muppet
FT "Stretch" (and Skew!) ;)
DS 12 DS 9
S 5/2010
D 12/2012

Posts: 5307 | Registered: May 2010 | From: a better place
toughgirl8
♀ Member
Member # 29812
Default  Posted: 1:53 PM, April 27th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Until being a parent interferes with them being themselves.

This statement completely resonates with me. I couldn't leave my H for a day with the kids to go to a funeral without loads of shit. (Really, it happened in Feb.). He can't handle an hour alone with the twins and loves to comment when I'm exhausted or exasperated with them about "YOU wanted them", as if he didn't take part in their conception. He was so freaked out about having them that it contributed to his stepping out on me.

My in-laws raised my Step D for a long time cause he was clueless in college and her mother couldn't handle her either. Talk about enabling the selfish behavior, then somehow I managed to take over where they left off.

The man hasn't even fessed up to the existence of my Step D in his professional circles. He thinks having a kid so young reflects badly on him. That hurts me, I hurt for her and she isn't even aware.

The more I think about it, it's not the A that will break us, it's him, me realizing that I can't have what I need with him. He'll never recognize our needs. After 13 yrs together, how can i expect anything to change? I can't.


Me-37
WH-41
M-12 yrs
D Day-3/2010
4 kiddoes
Some may say I have a short temper, I say I have a swift and assertive reaction to bull sh't. ;)

Posts: 327 | Registered: Oct 2010
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 9:17 AM, April 28th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

An NPD doesn't have "unconditional love" for his children.

The closest emotion to love an NPD will experience is only for themselves.

Any "love" they claim to feel for anyone else is simply a feeling of ownership. (if that's a feeling) but it
goes along with the sense of entitlement. And "unconditional love" is simply a stronger feeling of ownership.

NPD's are not capable of real emotion or genuine feelings. They are a shallow, superficial shell of what appears to be a human being.

Be careful when you have conversations with them about "love" and other emotions and feelings because their definition and understanding of the words are completely different than yours and mine.

[This message edited by sadtoo at 9:21 AM, April 28th (Thursday)]


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7926 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
hopefulmom
♀ Member
Member # 23556
Default  Posted: 4:39 PM, April 28th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My NPD ex. negotiated his way out of child support for his children (my pension was worth a lot more than what he would have paid in child support). But they are his kids??? And he told me I should only support them until they are 18. That's all I'm responsible for. And then what? Kick them out? Two are college students. They are our kids afterall?

He told his college bound daughter that if she would agree to let him be her father, spend time with him, talk to him, he would see about helping her repay college loans in a couple of years but right now he didn't even know how he could support himself??? He only had gotten 1/2 the value of our home in cash!

Unconditional love? No I don't think they can do it. It's all about what's in it for them.


me-44
WH-45
married 22 years
Dday 10/08
Divorced!

Posts: 257 | Registered: Apr 2009
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 9:52 PM, April 28th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Love yourself unconditionally.
You are worthy of it...you do deserve it, you are commanded not to doormat.
Wondering what their definition of unconditional wastes time better spent on yourself. It's a given the 2nd word, love, is like a far planet. Out there.

sad said it well; BE CAREFUL!
please please please...LIMIT your deep conversations. Hold your truths within.
Any info they receive...will be used to hurt you, control you...
please, LIMIT the info. It's less they have to hurt you with.
hugs tribe


Posts: 6021 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
caregiver9000
♀ Member
Member # 28622
Default  Posted: 4:46 PM, April 29th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

not just be careful with the deep conversations because they will use it to hurt you, but NPD's are great chameleons. They study us for our normal reactions. They study us and can mimic emotion.

Every conversation where we try to "MAKE THEM SEE" is futile. What we might do though is make them harder to recognize. I am a great talker. (and humble too) I could describe how I feel and why I feel that way and what made me feel that way six ways from Sunday. ON and ON I would think if I can only EXPLAIN it so he sees!! Well I can probably do that. But I can't explain it so he FEELS.

When I finally realized that- I no longer felt the compulsion to share my feelings in an attempt to get the remorse. It was never going to come. I will never get the apology I wanted/deserved. That is one more thing I do not and cannot control.


Me: 43, independent, happy, despite co-parenting with a lower muppet
FT "Stretch" (and Skew!) ;)
DS 12 DS 9
S 5/2010
D 12/2012

Posts: 5307 | Registered: May 2010 | From: a better place
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 7:50 PM, May 1st (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I could describe how I feel and why I feel that way and what made me feel that way six ways from Sunday. ON and ON I would think if I can only EXPLAIN it so he sees!! Well I can probably do that. But I can't explain it so he FEELS.

OMG Caregiver!! Thank you! That really helped give me a "aha" moment!

Thought I would share this, it might give a smile:

DS16 is wise beyone his years and knows that WH is NPD.

The other day his friend saw my new book on the table, "disarming the narcissist" by Wendy Behary.
The friend says jokingly, "Who is this for?" and nods toward DS16. My son answers, "That's for my father. He has weapons of mass destruction in the backyard." (disarming....weapons.....)

I haven't laughed out loud in a very long time!! Yes, these NPD's do have weapons of mass destruction of our egos, spirit and self esteem!


Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 10:06 PM, May 1st (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


Sounds like an interesting book! I'd be interested if its conclusion is nothing other than 'prepare to love the rest of your life as a doormat'
i don't even know if that was a typo, please report back! Because disarming them's a GOOD idea!

[This message edited by jjct at 10:08 PM, May 1st (Sunday)]


Posts: 6021 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
lied2
♀ Member
Member # 1807
Default  Posted: 10:26 PM, May 1st (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Love....they don't have a clue.

They really don't exactly move themselves either. They also hate themselves along with everyone else they profess to love.

They could not understand feelings if they were smacked by them up the side of the head.


The grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence. It is astro turf.

The essence of love is not what we think or do or provide for others, but how much we give of ourselves.


A clean house is the sign of a broken computer.


Posts: 8196 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Ontario, Canada
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 11:39 PM, May 1st (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

jjct: No, it's not a typo. The name of the book is:

"disarming the narcissist: Surviving and Thriving with the Self-Absorbed" by Wendy T. Behary.

Pretty interesting. Altough NC is the best course of action, I still have to deal with WH because of the kids and I thought the book might help me with dealing with WH and not falling into the regular traps and responding to the button pushing WH tends to do.


Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 2:02 AM, May 2nd (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


BE CAREFUL!
please please please...LIMIT your deep conversations. Hold your truths within.
Any info they receive...will be used to hurt you, control you...
please, LIMIT the info. It's less they have to hurt you with.
hugs tribe

And this

Every conversation where we try to "MAKE THEM SEE" is futile. What we might do though is make them harder to recognize. I am a great talker. (and humble too) I could describe how I feel and why I feel that way and what made me feel that way six ways from Sunday. ON and ON I would think if I can only EXPLAIN it so he sees!! Well I can probably do that. But I can't explain it so he FEELS

Both of these are so true. The first because everything we say to them is eventually used against us in the most cruel, twisted and horrible way.

And the second, by us trying so hard to make them see. We are inadvertently giving them a glimpse of humanity. Now they KNOW what emotion LOOKS LIKE and they copy it to use on us at another time they need to be convincing.

Looking back in my situation, there were so many times when my XNPDH displayed inappropriate emotional responses. Many times for me it was chilling. He would either under react or over react. And most times he would "almost" get it right, but the assignment of the emotion was "off" just enough for me to recognize that he was either faking the emotion, acting, simply didn't care, up to no good, stupid....something. At the time I didn't know what the hell was wrong with him. But I knew SOMETHING was very wrong with him.

He could do fairly well during most day to day situations. But it was during other times that we didn't do often....like weddings and worse were funerals.

And then there was that blank stare. OMG. What is that? Is it, "I'm dumb...I don't know what to say?" or is it, "I'm going to stare you down and intimidate you until you go away so I don't have to have this conversation anymore?" Or is it simply, "My memory bank fails me, as I have nothing to copy for this emotional situation and since I'm not human, I'll just give you all I have right now...this dumb stare."

[This message edited by sadtoo at 2:03 AM, May 2nd (Monday)]


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7926 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
Frank2010
♂ Member
Member # 29438
Default  Posted: 9:42 AM, May 2nd (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

New to this thread so bare with me if this has been discussed already.

Can NPD escalate? And can P/A behavior manifest during an escalated NPD?

I am finished with the M but still seeking to understand. I am D'ing because I give up on her ever feeling anything remotely close to remorse. But trying to convince myself that there truly is no hope left. 99.9% to that point.


Me 56 BS
Her 59 WS NPD(She is Empty)
D-day#1 05-01-10
Dday#2 06-04-10 previous ONS 9-24-09 AFF hookups

Status: S & D'ing


Posts: 1195 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: North Texas
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 1:04 PM, May 2nd (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Frank,
I'm not quite sure what you're asking.

Can NPD escalate? And can P/A behavior manifest during an escalated NPD

The disorder can escallate especially at times of stress. During times of stress are when the NPD typically "acts out".

I'm not sure what you mean about P/A behavior. Physical affair? If so, then yes. Sexually acting out, drinking and other reckless behavior is common.


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7926 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
Frank2010
♂ Member
Member # 29438
Default  Posted: 2:15 PM, May 2nd (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I was referring to Passive/Agressive Behavior. As for NPD escalating....We were together 31 years. She has always been selfish, as noted by family and friends that have known her as long as I have. But since being busted it seems like that has escalated even more. I did not even know what narcissistic meant until her first suicide attempt last May 21st, the attending psychiatrist told me there was no remorse or guilt that they could find and that she was "extremely narcissistic."

I don't know if her narcissistic behavior has escalated or I am just more aware of it. I have always just accepted her behavior as part of who she is.

As for the P/A behavior, I have just seen it more and more as I tried to hold the M together.

I would come up with an idea or a plan that would help us move towards eachother. She would agree to do certain things, but then after a couple of days would stop doing them. I would tell her what I needed to heal or what would help me recover and it seemed she would purposely withhold whatever I brought up or do it briefly and then stop. When I got hurt or anxious and tried to talk to her about it, she would treat me like I was crazy and not reacting normally. I should be dealing with this better and I am never going to get over it. And I would never be ok and I would never change, etc.

So I don't know if that behavior existed before, or if it has just manifested itself since she got busted in affair.

I would ask her if she would read something and she would agree and read part of it and quit or not read it at all. ie. Huffi's post "What every WS should Know", on line book I printed out for her "How To Gain Respect And Forgiveness After Your Affair". She read part of this one and said she had to stop. I asked her why and she said she got to the part where it said "if you are not 100% comitted to saving your marriage don't read any further", She said she couldn't do everything the book was saying she needed to do. She did not agree with everything, and knew I would never be happy with anything she did. Another book, "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair", she said she browsed it but it was just more of the same. I don't think she ever cracked the cover.

This is why I am getting the D. Not because of the affairs but because of these character and personality flaws.

I would just like to be able to understand the behavior better. Not interested in changing anything. Just find some peace within myself. It is not enough for me to just say "it is her it is not you". KWIM???


Me 56 BS
Her 59 WS NPD(She is Empty)
D-day#1 05-01-10
Dday#2 06-04-10 previous ONS 9-24-09 AFF hookups

Status: S & D'ing


Posts: 1195 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: North Texas
woundedby2
♀ Member
Member # 18522
Default  Posted: 2:39 PM, May 2nd (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Frank,
Welcome. Yes, NPD and the P/A stuff will increase as they are stressed out and unable to deal with the events. They don't have the real tools to deal with this emotional upheaval, so they start acting out in very crazy ways.

Suicide threats/attempts, substance abuse, verbal and physical abuse, and even crazy stalking behaviors become quite common as the NPD realizes that they are losing control. It is all a game to them. They don't care what is at stake or who they harm in the process.

There is much information out on the web about NPD and the closely-related BPD (borderline personality disorder). Read up on it. The more you understand the disorder, the more you understand about what has happened to YOU in your own life. Sigh.

This thread is full of wonderful people who have dealt with the same flavor of crazy you are dealing with. Lean on us.


Me: BS
2 kids: DD15 and DS18
Him: The Assclown NPD
OW: "friend" of 15 years
Divorced! Feb. 2010

Everybody, soon or late, sits down to a banquet of consequences.
~Robert Louis Stevenson


Posts: 7633 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: SoCal
caregiver9000
♀ Member
Member # 28622
Default  Posted: 3:05 PM, May 2nd (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Or is it simply, "My memory bank fails me, as I have nothing to copy for this emotional situation and since I'm not human, I'll just give you all I have right now...this dumb stare."

this gave me chills. I remember that look, the blank stare. It was an absence of response and it bothered the hell out of me! But it got him what he needed, because I would "fill in the blank" and lead him to the appropriate response every time. Indignantly, I would say things like "How can you not be sorry?" or "I am furious with you and you don't even care enough to react to that?" I am a teacher by profession and for a while I believed I could teach him to give me the reaction I wanted and it would be okay. EGADS. What I did not know...

Funerals. Illnesses. He never teared up at a movie. Like you say, I was aware that something was "off" and now I see.


Me: 43, independent, happy, despite co-parenting with a lower muppet
FT "Stretch" (and Skew!) ;)
DS 12 DS 9
S 5/2010
D 12/2012

Posts: 5307 | Registered: May 2010 | From: a better place
toughgirl8
♀ Member
Member # 29812
Default  Posted: 4:12 PM, May 2nd (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Frank- I'm learning too here.. the more 180 I gave my H, the more he started drinking, manipulating and threatening me emotionally.

Talk about letting me down when I needed him most huh?? (I'm certainly no stranger to that in my M) But for someone who claims to want to stay married, seems a little counterproductive doesn't it?

Going to new MC tonite but I don't want to. I'm sooo nervous. I feel the point is moot. The hope is gone and after some 180 and his reaction, I'm not emotionally invested anymore. I just want the pressure and anxiety of his nagging and neediness to go the f away already!

Don't mind me, I'm totally freaked right now. Not sure why I scheduled this appointment. I'm quite sure I will get nowhere.


Me-37
WH-41
M-12 yrs
D Day-3/2010
4 kiddoes
Some may say I have a short temper, I say I have a swift and assertive reaction to bull sh't. ;)

Posts: 327 | Registered: Oct 2010
Frank2010
♂ Member
Member # 29438
Default  Posted: 4:20 PM, May 2nd (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Woundedby2,

Thanx for the input. Everything I have read says that NPD is not treatable or cureable. P/A is, but would be a therapists nightmare. If this is true, then I have no options but the divorce. And that was my logic. I guess I would just like to confirm the diagnosis so that I KNOW I have made the only choice.

Has anyone successfuly R with a NPD? Or P/A? Or Both?

I know I could never get her family to get her in for psych. evaluation. And at one time early in R attempt, the therapist suggested it and she agreed. But the insurance ran out and we couldn't afford it. She also told me that on of her IC told her it sounded like I was NPD....that's just what she said. Then when I brought up P/A her new therapist supposedly suggested I might be P/A and that is why I keep "sabotaging" the marriage. By "sabotaging" she means not accepting the crumbs and just "getting over it".

Oh well,.....it is history now.....and so is the marriage. Would just like to know that I have made the right choices and that I didn't expect too much.


Me 56 BS
Her 59 WS NPD(She is Empty)
D-day#1 05-01-10
Dday#2 06-04-10 previous ONS 9-24-09 AFF hookups

Status: S & D'ing


Posts: 1195 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: North Texas
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