I know this... I am in a good place. Everyday now, I seem to feel good. It has taken months and months. It hurts me to see so many in conflict too...
I sure hope you're having fun with your new biz..
Tryn: I am glad you are well. For me personally, the prospect of us attending Retouvaille is just slim to none. I'm looking at my H's complete difficulty in expressing his feelings in a significant way, despite IC, despite seeing me taking the 1st step (I was not big on sharing feelings either). I just do not see him participating in something like this. Would he go if I made it mandatory? I suppose. But, the idea would be for US to get something out of it. Now, I assume you will say something like it's for this very reason that we need Retouvaille, and you might be right. I know you said you were not very comfortable with this kind of stuff prior to Retrovaille, but I have to imagine from your posts alone, that you had this in you all along. Plus, as the BS, I suppose you were affected in a different manner, maybe you were more motivated to go so you could alleviate your own pain and heal in addition to restoring your marriage. I don't know, I hope I'm not being offensive.
In addition to this, it was almost impossible for me to arrange for babysitting for myH and I to go away for the weekend, the possibility of us arranging that again, plus my H's erratic work schedule, etc. It just doesn't seem possible. And, I really, really do not want any family members to know about this. They are too gossipy and I'm sure my kids would find out eventually. Nothing is worth my kids losing the respect for their father, even if he deserves it. (Miracle -this is not a slight at you at all - you are in a different situation.) If I tried to arrange for babysitting as much as would be required, questions would be asked by family.
So - that's my take on it.
Fun: I am so sorry about what you are going through.
At: be careful about your list of questions. I'm still reeling from what I learned the other night & it's spinning me closer to depression than I would have otherwise predicted.
Therefore, I am back to there being no good reason to ask about my A questions, but I still have them. IC told me it is not a good situation that if I have a question I have to ask FWW to resolve the issue. He says I need to be able to “self-sooth” in this situation. Still no idea how to do that, but I am to bring my list of questions in for the next session.
Good news, FWW asked me to make her appointment when I was in, so she is still going.
I told him I was not feeling much emotion this week, mostly just detached. It took about all of 15 minutes until he had me off and running on an anger rant. It rather took me by surprise. He looked very pleased with himself. I clearly have a lot of crap I still need to figure out how to resolve.
FWW and I talked on the phone today on my way to and from IC. We followed up on our brief discussion last night, and it is painful to hear how she felt during our M. She is very clear to say that it was due to her misperceptions, but still I feel so bad. As an example, my family generally does not talk in the car. No reason, we just never did. I am the same way, and can go for long periods just riding and be OK. If someone wants to talk, I will, but I rarely initiate. FWW always assumed this was because I was mad or thought she was too stupid for me to talk to. Hours and hours we went places in cars, she was in emotional pain and feeling worthless. No wonder she never wanted to travel with me. There are many more examples and I am sad to have been such a source of pain to her.
I also feel sorry for her as she deals with the fact that that with the A, drinking, expecting people to intuitively know how to meet her needs, her behavior has been that of her alcoholic Mother who openly cheated on her Father. The one person she hates, and never wanted to be like, she now realizes, she became. She has a lifetime of crap to work through. I need to work on patience, again.
At work today, I had to read through pages and pages of handwritten notes by someone's spouse. I could really feel the pain and regret in his writing.
This made me think.
(This usually leads to no good).
In any event, I told H that I now know what true remorse looks like & detailed what I thought it was. To me, it's being in pain for seeing someone you love in pain, knowing you caused it. It's struggling to understand how it is that you caused such pain without making excuses or justifications for the behavior, no matter how hard that is to do, because you just can't live with yourself otherwise. I guess I want to see some real internal struggle taking place, so I can have compassion & believe in my H again.
My H basically told me that he feels like shit when he's sees that I'm hurt or sad & knows it's all his doing, but he's not the type to fall to his knees crying & begging for forgiveness.
I think this isn't enough for me. I really don't need to see the begging & crying, but I would like to see some sign of internal struggle.
Idk -just my random thought of the day.
I really don't need to see the begging & crying, but I would like to see some sign of internal struggle.
I absolutely understand what you are saying. In March and April, the worse period for us with anger and confrontation, I got begging and crying from FWW. Maybe it says something bad about me, but I still like it when FWW describes her pain, her triggers, the humiliation and regret. It is not that I want her to suffer, but it helps to know that she is not doing as OK as she appears on the outside. I could not go through all the shit so far, and the years to come if I thought she was “just OK” with everything.
ETA: It also was not enough or helpful when FWW would go on and on about how SHE felt awful, SHE would never get over it, SHE would never be trusted again. I really needed some empathy from her, and that has only come recently. There is a post floating around SI where a BS wrote for her WS to imagine her having an A. It is very graphic and asks him how he would feel. I used a modified version of this during a discussion with FWW to help her to see things from my perspective.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 4:10 PM, August 11th (Wednesday)]
In my case, OM had been through much pain before he met my W. My W too. They both could connect on some level where I was not capable. I think it was because of they could express feelings. Today, I changed. I believe I now fill that "desire" my W always needed. Maybe over the Top now You know I push and push this... Because I know you will really like it. The program was hard, it was emotional, but my W and Both agree it was worth the hard work. It take time too. I'm just trying to help you. Your H would get it. I know.
Let me tell you... What you want, you will get through this program... I know it.
Did I tell you 80% that go through it are R'd?
[This message edited by trynhard at 4:44 PM, August 11th (Wednesday)]
Now about you feeling sad that you were a source of pain for her. She sounds a lot like my W. My W will think that I am being mean and hateful if I am critical of anything she does. In fact she will take things I say as critical when that is simply not the truth. Example. Last week she talked to a man who I had been trying to get in contact with, to do some work for me. She set a appointment for him to come to our house to estimate the job. He was coming here at 6 pm after he got done with work. Since we usually eat around that time, she asked if I wanted to eat something that was fast to fix. I said yes, since he is coming at that time I think that is what we should do. She got mad, and replied that she only set that time as it was when he was available and that sometimes you have to take the time these people offer. No shit. She was really mad. I was fine with the time, I was not mad. She just took it that way. She does that a lot. The point is, she made me the source of her pain. She made me, (in her mind) mean. I do not feel sad that I was the source of her pain. I was not. She is the source of her pain. She does it to herself. I suspect your W does the same thing. Recently my W told me that I had been mean to her for 30 yrs. She indicated that fact as a reason for her behavior. Now I am not perfect, but I am not a mean person. It take a lot to get me going in that direction. Like your W, she had/has all these misperceptions about things. My W also has a lifetime of crap to work on. She is not going to do it though. I need to work on my patience but, my patience is running thin.
Hugs to the tribe.
Try to thinking about 3 or 4 new interesting topics the next time you take a long car ride... My W and I talk about work related stuff.. Obama is always fun..
Dip.. my w always thinks I say the wrong things to people.. I go huh? What's wrong with that? I said to a check out lady, why don't you call more people over to check out!
She get's embarrased with I only tip a dollar to valet.. It's a damn Kid I told her... Oh well I guess I have a few more things to work out.
[This message edited by trynhard at 4:38 PM, August 11th (Wednesday)]
Did your C give you any good reasons why your wife telling you the truth would not help you with your trust issue? Just wondering.
He didn't, and I did not ask. I have a great deal of trust with my IC. He worked with me when FWW was WW and gaslighted me in 2007, and he has been very effective for us both since dday. I suspect the reason is that it would just create a bigger tar baby for me to peel off. He is very focused on my needing to "self-sooth" and not rely on FWW or others.
Trynhard,, I am moving to M fixing mode, but realized today I still have a lot of anger over the A.
That is what I am going to work on at the Texas G2G..my first one and I'm hoping to discover some 'self soothing' techniques from other SIers....
Keep us updated on any techniques you discover that work for you AND are LEGAL!
My H basically told me that he feels like shit when he's sees that I'm hurt or sad & knows it's all his doing, but he's not the type to fall to his knees crying & begging for forgiveness
This is my H. Totally!
But I am proud of myself tonight. Even though I am a conflict avoider...I have stepped up to the plate and said what I needed to say for the past year. I again tried to bring up my hurt and that fact that I was scared of him trying to search out OW. I perceive it as he is still thinking of her and still has feelings for her. I asked him if he truly wants me. His reply...."Oh Christ... here we go again"....and he got up and walked out to the garage!!! I am so frustrated.
Retrouville is something my H wouldn't even consider....of course if I told him I was going to leave him if he didn't, maybe he would go! I think H is a lost cause.
I can understand at this point why our Hs don't want to talk about it, just from a frustration level. And, from their perspective things have been "better" despite the fact that we never really got the comfort/closure, etc. we needed. So, let sleeping dogs lie...
You just caught him researching OW!!!!!
I think he's just checking out. It's hopeless to him. He's too weak, etc. to fix the relationship & he's coasting.
I would have to videotape me asking my H to go to Retrovaille for you guys to see what I'm talking about.
In all honesty, I can only conclude that I am not a priority to my H. He prefers to be with me because he loves me, he's spent more than half his life with me & is attached to me, and we can have an intact family. So, he is willing to do some things, but this is clearly not as devastating to him as it is to me.
Ok I know I'm making no sense but my kids are DAMNLOUD and are otherwise harassing me.
Fun, so glad that you have seen some changes in your H. I did not know his affair lasted for 12 years, that is a long time and yes, one would expect him to have some longing, I suppose...
You did not say how long since d-day and NC, so perhaps he will continue to improve. It took my H five years!
I don't know, sometimes I think I just worry too much. I think I should relax and enjoy R. Then I think, I was enjoying my life when I discovered that it was all a lie? so, I am just being careful.
Nothing going on, I just wonder, why did my H choose to confide in total strangers,
Self-deception- is literally a matter of deceiving oneself- and thus raises unique questions.
How can one deceive himself-unless he already knows-what it is that he is deceiving himself about?
One of the things I asked my H was whether OW was easier to talk to than me, but he says they just talked about everyday things like work, anything that was going on at home, like an argument, the kids, etc, but it wasn't deep conversation. (God knows I believe him! Lol!!)
As for priorities - maybe this is as much as my H can give (Tryn - I know, I know)- his IC seems to think he's doing the best for his ability. (The thought of finding another IC was raised & promptly shot down by H). I really do not believe that is true - I believe he's the type that needs to lose everything before true remorse is shown & the kind of effort I would expect from him.
Part of my struggle is that I continue to expect him to react the way I would. I would be overwhelmed with guilt & worry & would be doing cartwheels to get him back. But, then again, I wouldn't have had an A in the first place.
Another thought that has been crossing my mind lately is that I didn't feel "in love" with him for years, so why is it so troublesome to me that I don't feel it now?
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 5:47 AM, August 12th (Thursday)]
So, Miracle, this makes it very difficult to trust myself but also it makes me wonder. Why, would he want to shut me out? Why marry someone then shut them out of your life? I think I need to ask these questions.
But, I also need to know, how I could have lived in that empty barren desert and not known I was the one on the outside with my nose pressed to the glass?
When you say it took your H 5 years what do you mean?
tryn - I looked up Retrovielle and there is one near me. I'm thinking I may video tape me asking my H as it would probably be similar to allgood's H's reaction!!
allgood - I know my H's A did not devestate him as it did me. He doesn't get it. I seriously wonder if he is still here because of the longevity of our relationship, money, comfort level, habit, and most of my M he walked on me like a doormat and I just tried to smooth things over. Conflict avoidance at its best!!!
I remember he took a psychology class years ago and the professor was a woman. She wrote him a letter at the end of the class telling him how distruptive, controlling and manipulative he was in her class. At the time I didn't know what to make of that letter but now I keep thinking about it.
Allgood, I have heard that said of course, things like, it is easier to talk to the ow's as they are encouraging him to bad mouth me etc. He WAS bad mouthing me, by the way, venting, he called it!
Just sort of sad to think that I lived in an empty marriage because it was easier not to talk to me? Well, that is as good a reason as any I suppose but as bad a reason as any as well! Sad, so sad.
Why, would he want to shut me out? Why marry someone then shut them out of your life? I think I need to ask these questions.
I think this is an important question for both you and your FWS to know the answer to. If it remains unknown, it cannot be addressed and remains a threat in the future. I can answer this question about my FWW as it applies to our M. We know what the issues are, and I can see that she is workign to fix them and arrange internal warning signs to prevent them happening again. This gives me comfort.
Allgood, nofun, m334455, last night when FWW and I were talking, I was once again suprised at the types and numbers of triggers she has each day. Movie dialog, things at work, things the kids say, driving past places. While I am not happy to hear she has pain and embarasement on a daily basis, it does help confirm to me that she is remoresful, and that she feels pain over what she did. Do your husbands ever talk about such things, or do you ever notice this? This may be a way to talk about things that is a little indirect and does not but them on the defensive quite so quickly?
ETA: Paper Roses
Just sort of sad to think that I lived in an empty marriage because it was easier not to talk to me?
That's me too. At one point in MC, FWW said during our M she didn't want to talk to me about her needs and appear dependant or stupid, and she didn't want to hurt me by telling me I made her mad. MC said, so you had an A instead?, and FWW paused and said...yea.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 8:14 AM, August 12th (Thursday)]
While I am not happy to hear she has pain and embarasement on a daily basis, it does help confirm to me that she is remoresful, and that she feels pain over what she did. Do your husbands ever talk about such things, or do you ever notice this?
Did you have your coffee yet?
Um.... NO!.... He would never in a million years mention such a thing.
In the 1st 2 weeks of DDay he admitted that he missed talking to her because she was a friend & he usually keeps his friends forever.
He admitted he thought of her on her birthday.
Other than that, apparently he only thinks of her when I bring it up.
Thanks for the chuckle!