leaving you means to me that she has and had already envisioned a life without you and took steps to make that happen...
She also thought about M OM#3, and living in his parents house when they died. She thought about his daughter in her wedding and where the wedding would be held.
So while she never physically left me, she was checked out.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 11:30 AM, August 15th (Sunday)]
why she sound so much like she needed an escape, the om didn't seem to matter to her, who he was, only what he could provide so it seems....i find that so so sad, especially since what she was probably looking for was there for the taking the whole time in you....
....why didn't she go?, what does she say that stopped her? and what or why does she stay now?
Why didn't she go? The snarky part of me would point out that she was never very good at planning and follow-through. She did leave her 1st H though. She stayed for the kids, at least until DS18 got to where he is now, going to college.
What stopped her, I do not think OM#3 ever planned to leave his wife for her. Just like her AP in her first M, the OM said all the right things, but in the end had no interest in leaving his BS for her. He went NC immeadiately after exposure on dday and it has held ever since. Still she was looking at opportunities to go to the town where we used to live and DS18 is going to college. She asked DS14 soon after dday how he would like to move back to that town.
Why does she stay now? Who knows? She says because she loves me, wants to finally make things work. Maybe inertia, maybe biding her time, maybe not to upset funding for DS college, maybe the A is way underground now that she knows my ability to snoop. I think she is here because it is easier than not being here. I think she wants to have a relationship, I just do not know if it will ever be possible, or if I am willing to settle.
She spent most of the M presuming that I did not love her, did not like her daughters, and thought she was stupid. If I was quiet it was because I was mad at her. If I did not do the right thing to “make” her happy it was because I did not care for her. She has so many explanations and examples from our 20 year M that they contradict and get confusing. Simple fact is she told her kids, our kids, her folks, her sister, and her friends she was not happy in the M, and it was because of my bad attitude. They all felt sorry for her, and hoped she could find the happiness she deserved. FWW was shocked when she told her girls and sister of her first A, and they were not supportive. She thought they would be glad she was finally happy.
no employer should tell another how to live their personal life....
Allgood… I know I wouldn’t have any problem finding a new mate. I also would just “be” myself and allow God to send the right woman to me… I was just giving you some options to consider. Revenge affairs are wrong but you would be letting him know in advance, then, it would not be an affair. It would be an “open” M. Let’s see how he feels once he starts to vision you, his W, his mate, his mother of his kids, allowing some other man to have his W… Wonder if he would get it then? Some other man taking his W… Hummm..
My W and I separated for 3 days. I made a date just to talk with friends, friend but only platonically. My wife discovered it when this lady had called me back while I came home to get some stuff. I had told my W all along that I would not R during any S. My W thought we were still going to try and R. I made myself clear. I never thought my wife could be so mean and jealous. To this day, we must avoid this woman at any social event. The tables turned you see…
[This message edited by trynhard at 5:21 PM, August 15th (Sunday)]
This is not a question I ask of myself to cause myself unecessary discomfort but in order to kow and perhaps stay in reality about how genuine my spouses committment to me and the marriage really is. This is not to say that all of this is deliberate or cruel or intentional on the part of my spouse either. He may very well want to feel that certain kind of love for me with all of his heart..but in the end..he may just not be able to feel what he cannot feel! It is my job to watch out for my heart..to be careful..my H has a history of lying to himself when he wants something to be true.
So, I look at the signs, of how and why he returned. did he return to me as a man who semed grateful to be free of the ow? Did he seem happy to be free of the burden of the lies and the shame and guilt? For those of you who are saying a resounding "Yes" then it is a slam dunk for you! You may have been fortunate enough to have discovered the affair at a time when your spouse was ready to leave his affair partner.
In my case, my H did not seem like a man in love with his wife when he returned home to me. It was glaringly obvious, I need to be aware of this as it may effect my future. Heads up and not in the sand are best.
Self-deception- is literally a matter of deceiving oneself- and thus raises unique questions.
How can one deceive himself-unless he already knows-what it is that he is deceiving himself about?
For those of you who are saying a resounding "Yes" then it is a slam dunk for you! You may have been fortunate enough to have discovered the affair at a time when your spouse was ready to leave his affair partner.
This was me.. I made this last year...
Infidelity should be illegal
I agree. If it was illegal it may deter some from slipping down that path. If you could get jail time, I don't think my H would have done it.
So, I look at the signs, of how and why he returned.
He's here working hard, tells me he's happy, but I just don't get the feeling that he's attracted to me. Just doesn't seem to desire me. Says, he wants me to be ready and doesn't want to push me. I would like some romantic gestures to let me know that he desires me.
the only problem is... like Tryin says is to stop trying to make sense of this mess and instead put it behind me....
easier said than done...
It sounds as if your wife does not show a lot of remorse for the affair... is that the probelm?
what kind of things has she done to make amends to you?
tryn: i understand where you are coming from i really do, its just not realistic in this society, its a law that will never be...i also think that what one does with his personal business does not always affect their life, with few exceptions...drugs and alcohol among them....we live in a society that has a great need for morals...we live in a society where someone else is always to blame, i could go on and on about the society we now live in....parents who shouldn't be, politicians that need to experience life from a poor persons perspective...etc...
the somewhat good news is now some bs's are sueing the op's....now that i love...we should be able to sue our ws's too if we choose divorce...a sahm should not have to go back to work just because her husband decided to cheat and leave, or a sahm should not feel like she is stuck in a marriage simply because she doesn't make any money, and her husband will not support her....if you choose to cheat you need to pay, not necessarily with jail time, but money to the bs....
ats i do not remember is your wife in ic, i know you are both in mc...but is she also in ic...and how often are you going?...i think you both need to go weekly, she's got lots of issues to dig into, and you both have lots of issues to dig into together...
i am sorry ats...i hope though that you find some more pockets of happiness along the way, pockets that will turn into more then that...
In my case, my H did not seem like a man in love with his wife when he returned home to me.
Paper Roses, this is my sich too, but not because of her affection for the OM, though it wass there more than she let on. On dday she told me it might come as a suprise, but that she had been unhappy most of the M. I know this is typical WS talk, but for her it is apparently true, and looking back I see it now. Her kids and family confirm it. They all felt sorry for her, but no one said anything to me that she was so upset. They did not want to hurt my feelings
I like the plug anaolgy njgal480.
It sounds as if your wife does not show a lot of remorse for the affair... is that the probelm?
what kind of things has she done to make amends to you?
Inconsistent at best. If we talk about it or I raise the subject she will tell me how badly she feels, how she triggers. To make amends...she quit f#cking OM#3 and quit sexting and doing phone sex w/BIL. She follows my lead. If I send her a card, she sends me one. If I schedule an outing she will usually come along, but I am still not a lock for her time. If I propose sex and remind her, she will usually comply, but still at the end of the day and she is often tired. She will answer questions if asked, painful ones if pressed, but I am no longer asking any because I do not see the value of additional information, especially if only given begrudgingly. My IC seems to concur with more information being of no real value.
We quit MC a couple months ago. She is doing IC every two weeks, but I suspect she will cancel her appt. this week. I started back into IC two weeks ago.
We have not had sex for 2+ weeks now. I triggered badly the last time, and she wants us to "talk" beofre having sex again. I have asked to talk 2x, I will ask again tonight. We re-arranged our room and set it up for massage and tantra, had a GREAT night of nonsexual touching. We agreed, I thought, we should do that reguarly, weekly. That was 3 weekends ago.
Her sister called today and said that her parents want FWW, DD31, DD27, and FWW's sister and neice to come for 60 wedding A. I cannot come because we cannot leave DS14 alone and DS18 will be away at college. There was no discussion, she said she is going. BIL will likely be there. All I have going for me is hope DD27 will go and keep tabs for me. She was on my side through the whole A time.
FWW is upset this weekend with DS18 leaving this week. Last week it was work, the week before that something else. I told her I need more time and attention and we were back to me being selfish. Not so clearly stated as it would have been in the past, but that was the message.
I characterize her efforts since dday as always being a day late and a dollar short. I do not know how long I want to wait. When I go to IC next week I will have about a month of feeling detached. If I get a second month while she is away on training over my birthday and then to her parents and maybe seeing BIL, I may have my 2 months of consistent feeling I always was looking for. Once she is back from visiting her parents it will be our dday A time. Infact, she will be away to see them one year from the trip to visit DD27 which was when I discovered the A. It will be a re-enactment.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 7:01 PM, August 15th (Sunday)]
Sorry, but I don't remember th
[This message edited by njgal480 at 8:59 PM, August 15th (Sunday)]
and its time for you to give your wife some blunt clear communication of what you feel...and i really hope she comes through..it i remember correctly she seems to need it to be desparate for her to take action...she needs to be in ic, weekly, no cancelations, and i think you need to set this boundary and why did you stop mc...you two are way too far from doing this on your own...and again if i remember correctly she doesn't always see what is pointed out to her without you showing her...which means she is not "seeing" her actions yet...not without your guidance as it seems.....
what is it with our ws's, they all seem to be lame without guidance...like if you dissappear so does the effort or appearance of effort....and the guidance almost needs to be forced for them to "listen"...
DS14 and I cannot go for 3 reasons. 1, I am not wanted by her Mother. 2, $$ we are spending money we do not have for DS18 college, 3, DS14 has a HS football game that weekend and is in the marching band.
I laid it all out for her. My disappointments, my expectations, why I continue to not trust her. She has gone to bed. She says she is trying. I appreciate that she cannot change 50 years of behavior in months, maybe she never can.
Questions asked by the tribe about this. She and her BIL engaged in sexting and phone sex. He told her he would never cheat on her sister, and this would just be fun. She loved the attention, they way he looked at her when she visited. She admits that she would never have told me about this is I had not seen some of the texts. I suspect they have had sex, but she will never admit that.
She did not want to go to IC, thought it was no use. I am happy to have her there every other week. When we were doing MC I just sat there most of the hour, it was all going over her stuff. I figure in IC without me she can be more open. At some point when she gets her shit figured out we may try MC again.
She says when I am detached she does not know what to do and withdraws. She says I will never get over it, most of the it I have only known for 4 months. She needs to step up. If she continues withdrawing, goes to visit her parents, does not SHOW me some effort, it may be too late. It was good so long as I am carrying the load and accommodating her.
You can't analyze stupidity.
There are some things we just cannot figure out, and the WS can't figure it out either. "What was I thinking?"
As I have been reading everyone's posts, I realized something. Although a lot of WS's go through "the script" in terms of the things they say, and the denials they give, there does seem to be a big difference between WS's that have 1 short affair, ones that are SA, and those who have LTA's.
In addition, I feel that those who have been in LTA's also fall into various categories, but I do see a running theme in many: the WS's seem to have some major personal problems. LOL, I don't mean to be facitious!!
For many BS's of LTA affairs there is a lot to deal with. If the WS says they want to R, they often go to IC and there are a lot of FOO issues to deal with that probably caused them not to have boundaries in the first place, or have such low self esteem that they needed external validation from outside the marriage.
The fallout of the affair must be dealt with, and the problems of the marriage itself.
Ats, I see from your posts that your WW has a lot of personal issues. She probably thought so little of herself that she could not even accept that you loved her, and she made it a self fullfilling prophecy.
NJgal, from what I gather, it's more to do with alcoholism than anything else. So that has to be addressed, and then why the addiction then.
Allgood, there seems to be a lot of H's that could not accept their wife to have an affair and would leave immediately. This is probably why your WH has trouble understanding why you may want to R. It's like he feels he did this horrendous thing and really expects that you will leave him. In your case, I feel Tryn is right, Retrovaille might really help you guys, and if not both of you, I think it would help you.
PaperRoses, I understand the doubts that you have. If they could deceive us so well, how do we know they are not doing so now?
But, as a very dear friend said to me, "They could deceive us so well and we believed it BECAUSE they wanted us to believe it."
As for wanting to know more info? My take on this is that most likely it would be beneficial to know MAJOR details, as to to when it started, etc. How often they met. When it ended. BUT, I do know that when we have triggers, wanting to know what the OP wore for example or how "they did it" is too much info for us to process and info that is unneccessarily hurtful. Somehow, we may be focusing on the trees and not see the forest KWIM?
With my first xWH, he left immediately, no info at all and it was a blessing after all. I did not want to know what they did, or how they did it. Less for me to mull over and obsess over FOR ME. I could just focus on the major picture: he left and I must deal with it.
I don't know if my ramblings are making any sense.
I do know what would help me if I were truly in R and I got a trigger. I would tell WH I had a trigger, and I would want him to put an arm around me and say that he was sorry I am having pain. I would want to hear him say, "I'm sorry I put you in this pain, I didn't do it to hurt you, but we are working to make things better and it will be better. I love you. Let's have faith in each other."
Something of that nature.
There is a lot of work in R for a LTA. More work than usual. It may seem daunting, but I feel that there must be a committment with both parties to promise and vow to really really try thier best. That is where I think the trust begins. Not so much the trust that the WS will never "do it" again, but the trust that they are commmitted to R and will try their best.
I pray that everyone is in a better place today and I pray everyday for each and every one of you that you will be in less pain and on the road to happiness.
ETA: I am not stronger, still in a lot of pain. A lot to process. I put a lot away so I can deal with everything a little at a time. I have just been surviving.
I find out a new thing and I'm brought to my knees, but as a dear friend pointed out, I'm getting up more quickly now, although I'm still very wobbly and shaky.
I know you are doing so much of the work. From what I can see, your WW really doesn't know how to have a relationship with someone.
I really believe she loves you to the best of her ability, but she doesn't love herself. She can't see how she can be worthy of love. and ironically, she blames it on you!!!
I feel she not only should go to IC weekly, but possibly bi-weekly!!
Take care of yourself.
Her answer; she says she wants a divorce. She would rather visit with those that abused her and protect whatever it is she is protecting than deal with me.
I will give this time and not over react. I will let IC work me through this, but I need to go back to taking care of me and my boys.