She cannot truly R if she is putting herself before you. After her track record, it's going to take a long time for you to "get over it" if you ever do. But one thing, you can't if she won't help you and continues to throw that in your face. She needs more IC to help her get over her FOO issues.
I'm sorry she brought up the D word.
I want to know how she can say she wants to divorce, and then go to sleep.
I really wish I had not decided to cut back on my drinking.
are you saying that your husband has not initiated any sex with you.
Not really. We did go away this weekend and enjoyed our time but on a day to day basis...no. One problem is he goes to bed at 9:30 (I just can't do that) and gets up at 4:00 am (can't do that either). Our one daughter that is home from college is never gone, or she leaves after he goes to bed. We get NO alone time. She will be heading back this week, so I'll see how things go. We will definitely have lots more alone time and hopefully, he'll flirt with me and make me feel sexy.
I wonder if you would see your wife in this? or if she would recognize herself?
it could be something she could explore with the IC.
I'm so sorry for your pain.
She obviously is having difficulty dealing with the very hard work that you need to do in order to reconcile after infidelity!
It is not an easy thing... the WS really needs to look at themselves in the mirror and get honest about who they are, how they got here...no more lies...no more lying to themselves...
not en easy thing to do for people that have been having in denial most of their lives!
Keep reading the Ortman book...regardless of what your wife decides to do... he gives good advice in the last chapters about strategies to help you de-stress and heal from the trauma of infidelity.
and.. I know it may be expensive... but, IC for both of you is really important.
I think it is more a control issue. She has tried to control her environments most of her life. She has used sex to control and manipulate men, it worked on me, for most of her life. I know she definitely does not feel in control now, and I am not responding as I should.
She clearly knows she can still jerk me around and she is still safe, I wonder what that says about me?
Ats: I am so sorry your WW said the "d" word. NJgal gave you great advice.
It seems that your WW probably feels more "secure" or "comfortable" playing the old tapes and battles from FOO. She is terrified to really look at herself and work on herself and is why she mentions D. I mean she is absolutely terrified!!
I don't think it's that she doesn't love you, but she doesn't love herself.
I understand what you mean about why you want to know some more details to determine if she's lying still or not. I can only suggest that you write down the things you WANT to know and reread the list and see if you can pare it down to the things you FEEL you NEED to know.
I see that you have been working so very hard and when you do, WW does too. Is she generally externally motivated? I know that you are doing your part and more and probably wish that when you need to take a breather, she could pick up the slack. I don't know if she can yet.
I understand completely what you were saying about feeling a certain way consistantly that will help you in your decision. But, I think Tryn is right about Retrovaille. What do have to lose? It can only help you if nothing else and then you will know that you have done everything in your power to help the sitch.
There has been no "us" for a long ime, if ever. I have been on my own emotionally for as long as I can remember. I should have left before the affairs and been honest then that I was not happy and did not think you cared. I did not interpret your behavior correctly. Thought you didn't care so I unfortunately tried to fix it in the totally wrong way. I took the corward way out and cheated instead of being honest about wanting to make my relationship with you better. It was my way of fixing what I thought was wrong in my life instead of divorcing or making the marriage better. I am sorry for hurting you and family and friends and sorry this is how I tried to be happy and tried to avoid being honest about wanting a divorce. I don't know how I feel about wanting a divorce now. Thought it would be easier to work things out but it has been very difficult. I would like to think there is some hope but really don't know. That is why I get hung up on why what happened with cum is so important. Being able to be honest about how I feel seems more important and taking an honest look at options seems more important and being able to continue to be honest about feelings even if it is not something you want to hear.
Just like after dday I see no need for immediate action, but I no longer consider us working towards R. I am tired, if there is a future she is going to have to break trail, but I think the clock has started on us. Without some real change, I dod not see us making it through the holidays.
I guess I hoped that at some point she would fight and do whatever it took for us to have a better future, but in her mind, we never had a past.
Thisa morning, I hate my life.
FWW says she told her parents about the abuse when she was older, but they took no action. Knowing her as I do, she was probably not real straight forward in her accusation. The abuse happened when she was JHS -HS age. He would buy her beer, ciggarettes, give her things from his store. There would be inappropriate touching, she mentions a French kiss. I do not know the whole story. She says that at the time it felt exciting to have the attention from an adult.
She and her BIL have always flirted, it is (was?) her nature. When she visited a few years ago he stared at her while she did her yoga. He said he would never cheat on her sister, but asked if he could call her some times. Her sister has had much less C than FWW and is in worse emotional shape. Her M is non-existen, they are roomates. FWW said it was exciting to have men (including BIL) want her and pay attention to her.
We have a good counselor, I know he has made headway with her, but it may all just be too much for her to work on herself and us. So, do I wait and see?
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 8:19 AM, August 16th (Monday)]
bbl, gotta go...
I have been on my own emotionally for as long as I can remember.
[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 10:28 AM, August 16th (Monday)]
From her message, it does seem your WW is aware that there is a lot of work to do with herself and most importantly, she seems aware that her feelings in the marriage were based on false assumptions because of her demons. She is not blaming you, which is good. She is talking about honesty, and this time, I feel she really means it.
Ats, you and WW have a lot more heart to heart talks ahead, and she seems to be willing. I don't know at this point if you guys will R, BUT, and this is an important BUT, I feel very deeply from what you wrote, that you and your WW can come to terms with each other with RESPECT and KINDNESS.
She is overwhelmed with the immensity of the job ahead to fix herself and I truly believe it was never her intention in a million years to hurt you the way you are hurt.
Btw, whose 60th party is this? Her parents or an aunt and uncle???
Her parents 60th wedding anniversary.
[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 12:14 PM, August 16th (Monday)]
As I have said many times, it takes great brain strength to R. But I can understand if you need to take care of yourself... spend your mind on a new future.
[This message edited by trynhard at 12:12 PM, August 16th (Monday)]
At some point, YOU NEED TO PLAY HARDBALL. I need to play hardball now. All three of us are going to be in the "time to bring out the big guns" situation.
The problem is: you need to be emotionally ready for the fallout. Maybe you two are not yet. And that's OK. But what I want you two to do for me right now is this: get yourself where you need to be to be ready to draw a hard line. Because the moment is going to come.
Allgood: I'm perfectly successful in not rehashing the M during the A anymore. But, I knew something was very wrong in my M and WH wouldn't address it so I've actually been doing something called unilateral marriage counseling with my IC for the last 4 years. So, the A was *almost* a relief for me because there was FINALLY an explanation for why I was making so little progress!
And tryn -- way to tell off Allgood's husband!
ATS -- How do I get to be 50 and have 4 men fighting over me instead of 35 and cast off by my husband? Maybe I need to meet your WW. . .
What do you think would happen if you just said OK to her D threat? As Razor would say "fly little bird, be free!" What do you think she would do?
Honest, the script is so typical that I almost think we should use it against them. they say "Blah blah" -- and we say "yes, and then you say "blah blah blah" and I'm supposed to say "blah; look, you're a walking, talking sterotype so can we just skip ahead 6 steps because I've got to get this BS RESOLVED and move on with my life ..."
Paper roses -- you ROCK, please stay. Very thought provoking.
BTW everyone -- adultery IS illegal in my state, for what it's worth.
Miracle -- pfm did not love her better. If he did, that's where he'd be. Pfm's problem is that he doesn't love himself -- which doesn't leave him much to give anyone else. He loves you best, he just sucks at loving. Acceptable, no, and it's ok to throw yourself a pity party too if you want because you got gipped, but I'm just sayin' ...
FNF I think you are right about ATS's wife rehashing her abuse. I think my WH might be doing that as well to some extent, and I also noticed that in ATS's description of his WW.
Can't believe and all about the discussion about WHY your spouse chose you. and whether it's paritally $ or convenience...
I have given this a LOT of thought. I think: if this man will cheat on me with an older woman when I'm 28 and super-fit, what's going to keep him from deciding I'm expendable again when I'm 50 or 60? Or right now?
And I don't want to be the "easy road". I don't want to be a raging witch per se, but I can't feel comfortable continuing in this M if it's the easy choice. He has to prove he wants it enough to make it when it's the HARDER choice.
So, I've decided to level the playing field as much as possible. I'm going to do my best to make the consequences the same whether we R or D. Either we D or we sign a post-nup that is as close to mimicing D as possible AND he does the hard work of IC, MC, etc.
I've also decided how I'm going to deal with OW. You don't get to pretend to be my friend, get close to my children, take vacations with me, and betray me the way she did without consequences. You just don't. But I've thought long and hard about what I can/should do that is legal and also not harassment and also would be appropriate even if I didn't feel vengeful.
The people I tell will be the same whether we R or D. I have no need to tell anyone else about WH -- but I do have a short list of people I am going to expose OW to either way.
Level the playing field. He'll see the kids more if we R -- I can't change that (nor would I want to) -- but the financial stuff and personal exposure stuff will be made pretty much equal either way.
It’s totally about greed and selfishness. I can understand what you fine lady’s cannot seem to understand about A’s… I think about how good it would feel to have sex, talk some smack, be around someone other then our spouses… for me, it would be very exciting. Please don’t feel offended when I say this to all you fine ladies here… Heck I have some attractions just by reading your postings.. lol.. I admit it… I would love to have dinner, a good chocolate Marti drink, some good conversation followed by a roll in the hay. Yep, I mean every one of you fine ladies here on the LTA board……
tsk, tsk, tsk ... tryn.
I understand 100%. Not everyone understands the appeal, but I'm one of those people who does.
I have thought over and over about why I was so shocked -- and so trusting -- and the bottom line is that I know my WH values our life together (the fact he's still here proves that) and to risk something you value would be stupid and my WH is not stupid ERGO I believed he would not cheat.
Apparently he is PARTIALLY stupid.
I'm still just letting new IC lead me around by the nose. The man seems to have a plan so I'll keep cool and have my little plan/dreams until it is revealed.
Last night my WH got to listen to our friends rip on the father of our son's classmate whose wife D'ed him b/c he'd had an LTA. They were talking about how his 10 year old son won't even talk to him now that he knows what happened (the father told the boy) and also how the little guy feels culpable because his dad was always taking him and his brother over to OW's house as a cover ... who knows whether that made any impression on WH at all.
ats i had only just started to respond earlier, and i love all of the responses you got from the others....so rather then repeat them i would just say i agree with them....
there is more thoughts that i am having on the subject....ats...your wife has huge issues, i believe for your own peace of mind you need to set down some boundaries that are requirements for you, choices she has to make...ic needs to be one of them...there is no way you are capable of helping her heal all of her issues...and her issues need to be addressed because she is headed to self-destruct....her reply to you was all about her...not about both of you or you, but her.....
her issue of abuse....does she admit everything that this man had done to her...i get the feeling that she is sugar coating it somehow...whether she is making more out of it then it was or is in denial of what it really was.....
stand up for yourself and tell her that she cannot go to this party period....for soooo many reasons...first and foremost her abuser will be there and her bil will be there and she does not belong in the same place as they choose to be....and if you are not welcome then neither is she....
and i noticed you wrote that you wished that you were still drinking...i am really glad and proud that you are not...and if you could make it through this crap without it....that is a huge feather in your cap so to speak....and you are well on the road to healing.....and i gotta tell you...i remember saying to myself over and over that this healing shit just really hurts....and thats because it does...but we need to go through the pain to get to the rainbow....i know that there is a saying for this, i just cannot remember it right now....
i also do not think your wife is capable right now to see beyond her own perceptions of her own pain....she is stuck there, and i believe she still feels safe that you aren't going anywhere, so stuck she will likely stay unless she gets that help...intense help....
ic and mc need to be mandatory for both of you....living like this is not working, and neither of you are getting your needs met.
honest: i am glad to see you posted...please keep posting my freind, even if its nonsense, you need to stay connected to people who genuinely care about you and have no stake in you like your kids....another words we are here for you...and all that goes with you..
oh and honest....have you vented lately...and studied and preferrably not at the same time..
believe: have you addressed this issue with your husband over the lack of true intimacy....baring your soul so to speak on the subject.....and i am sorry i need to tell you that it sends up little red flags to me that he is not a more willing partner or trying to find a way to connect with you intimately.....
FWW did come to SI a few times to lurk. She hoped to get the WS point of view with which to challenge me, she was disappointed. She did read a lot, and early on, it was a turning point in our R. I have encouraged her to sign on and post, but she says it is not her thing. The only people she has to talk too are her sister and a friend from our former town who both knew about the As. Neither are strong M supporters, not saying they are anti-M, but both have their own M problems.
I have been trying to think what triggered all of this, we were really, FWW and I both thought, doing so well. About 3 weeks ago, I had enough of an itch that I made an appointment for IC. I remember at the time just wanting to "tie up loose ends". I think it is the trust issue, believing that she is telling the truth. Now she is so defensive and withdrawn, I feel like I did in April before the big disclosure. I am having déjà vu episodes and not coping well. I dread up coming the 4 hour drive back Wednesday from taking DS18 to college. I just know my thoughts are going to wander.
FWW is not at her office or answering her phone calls. She called DS18 just after I sent her a text, so it is not that she is too busy.
I want to call BIL and read him the riot act and warn him off of going. I want to call SIL and ask why she is organizing this event no one wants to attend for her Mother that neither she nor FWW like or respect. I of course will do none of these things because I am "stable".
I am going to see if she is willing to get back to weekly MC, we were doing well when we were doing that. We were also spending more time together. Just driving there and back and a breakfast afterwards to decompress were 3 hours each week. But then I wonder what she is hiding. I sometimes feel like my IC (our MC and her IC, all the same guy) has tried to warn me off. Maybe he knows something he cannot share. See, the paranoia is all back.
I think she needs to understand what mature love is about... Some people cannot know, nor ever understand. Some can.