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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Long Term Affair Part 19
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 11:44 AM, August 30th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So... I am left with someone who loves me & wants me now, who is willing to treat me better, but remains someone who was completely unbothered by F-ing 2 women at once & lying to me on a repeated basis to keep it going.

Is he bothered by that behavior now? If there is no change from that person I would be concerned. One thing I can take some future comfort in is that FWW is not the same person psychologically as she was when she was able to lie to me, demonize me, and find pleasure from others.

It seems to me that the only recourse I have is to just take my chances (trust, but verify), which is really less than comforting - especially when I think about all the crap he did post-DDay that doesn't exactly inspire confidence that this was a life changing experience for him.

If it (dday(s)) was not a life changing experience, again I would be concerned. What need did the A fulfuill, why did he choose to have that need filled by the A rather than himself and within his M. If you and he both do not know the answers to these questions, how can he have learned from his mistake? Not wanting to hurt you again is not enough assurance, and in fact guilt from hurting you would put him at higher risk for another A.

I am able to work on R with FWW because she is not the same person who demonized me, lied to me, and cheated on me. If she were still the same person in perception and out look, i would have to leave.

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 12:03 PM, August 30th (Monday)]


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 11:54 AM, August 30th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ya- I'm not able to say that about my H.


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 2:35 PM, August 30th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Brokenpromise.. I am glad you posted.. You certainly have seen your fair share of misery in life. In your case.. I can understand the needs of both you and your H want to just “escape”…
I so miss the "husband" I thought I had.
.. I miss that too.. For me, I’m sure that feeling is gone forever. What is lost mostly for me is that deep sense of pride I used to have for my W. In my mind, I did cherish and believe she had dignity, quality, merit, or superiority…. It’s gone. I may come, back but I have accepted the fact those feelings may take years and years to return. Today, we treat each other very well.

Psndhart… There are laws of responsibilities in marriage. I think any of us can lose our way in life.. be it drugs, sex, any third party life mistake… but twice? Your H didn’t care how his actions would affect you. I know this.. If you decide to leave your H, I will predict that within a year, if you try (making an effort), a man will desire you…. Or, if you so choose, you can make yourself happy living alone! What is it that makes you happy? Is it being with other people? Is it helping others? Doing a good job at work? All this is something you are going to have to do on your own.

Allgood..

How is it that I am supposed to think that anything good that is happening in R is not a whole load of bullshit just like it was while the A was ongoing?
Yes - he seems to be more interested in me/our M - but all I can think about is all the people who said that was the way their H was behaving as well - only to find out the A was ongoing?!?
It’s call risk. You risk and take a chance. We take a chance everyday in life. I notice how close I am to cars on the interstate, only 3 feet from each other going 70 mph.. (112.65 kph for Laura.. lol) at any point in time some stranger may miss you in the blind spot and run you off into a head-on collision killing you kids… maybe kill even you! Allgood, why do you take a chance? Because you want your family to continue to be together… you want what you’ve built together... you want take a chance to see if someone can learn from a mistake and change for the better... and more….. You are giving your partner chance to achieve more then just sex… to achieve “agape”… There is never a guarantee your H won’t cheat on you again. But, if it happens, you know you loved your marriage enough to give someone a chance to make good out of evil. What they choose to do you cannot control.

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 4:27 PM, August 30th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

i am on my way out, just wanted to touch base and i will hopefully be able to post later...just didn't want you all to think i abandoned you...


i did read a bit and tryn's last paragraph, (hopefully he wont post again til after this post) was said beautifully and that applies to all who are in reconcilliation..and the stand you take on terrosim is what popped into my head reading it...basically do not be afraid to live your life or you won't live...life is about taking chances, not crazy ones, but ones that stand a good shot..life is for living....living in fear all the time is not living, its hiding...

good post tryn!!!

later

(((tribe)))


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 11:08 PM, August 30th (Monday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

i have caught up...and just want to send out some <<<hugs>>>

((((tribe))))

as scarlet would say" tomorrow is another day"

or annie

"tomorrow, tomorrow, theres always tomorrow...it only a day away"

nite all


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 5:38 AM, August 31st (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ats.. During my W's A... I too was cut down, beat up, and even more so behind my back! She said I was inattentive, unloving, un-everything.. That is all part of the A... Mean while, she accepted my gifts of a nice home, backrubs, sex, cookouts, trips, hugs, the endless love I gave her...

When you stop blaming your spouse for your own problems, only then will you be able to change and solve your own problems.

Why is it the above is so hard to live... That's even for me!

[This message edited by trynhard at 5:39 AM, August 31st (Tuesday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
Laura28
♀ Member
Member # 28997
Default  Posted: 6:10 AM, August 31st (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

HI tryn

Don't know what to say except I'm here and I hear you

HGS
Laura


Married 30yrs Me BW 57Yrs Him FWH 59yrs
OWzero 1988 EA?/PA? Gaslighted.
Dday May 28 2010.
OW1 1994(6mths PA, EA til dday).
OW2 2002(8yrs PA).
OW3 2009(1Yr PA).
Others???? Status: Not Divorcing..but.."You can't unfuck the goat"

Posts: 2729 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Australia
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 6:56 AM, August 31st (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ATS --
I'm sorry about the prolapse. I hope it's not too painful to fix. I was not surprised to read she'd skipped her medication. I guess my "mood disorder" radar went off.

Take extra care of her right now, I'm sure she's very scared.

Miracle

Life is even about taking crazy chances sometimes too.

Allgood

On Dday, it was as if a huge weight had been lifted of my husband's shoulders. That doesn't mean he's not still fogtastic, but I did see and I do see indications that he was bothered to some extent by betraying another person.
I think it's important for you to think if you see something like this.

Folks -- it's all about you vs. them. You want to be a team, but you can't if your teammate is going to sit there with his/her fingers in their ears throwing a temper tantrum. So, how long do they get to have the tantrum before you say "forget it, I'm going home. Play by yourself."

You can only control yourself. Say it a MILLION times. Then, think of ONE thing you want to change that is completely in your control and change that. Your WS will notice the smallest consistent change you make. It will get them thinking; maybe even nervous.

I ride my bike to work now. For someone who has spent 54 of the last 60 months pregnant or nursing and has been pregnant 5 times and had 3 babies and 2 D&C's in that time, it's quite a change. And, of course, my body is changing to match that too. You don't bike 40 miles a week without it starting to show.

Ok random cheerleading there.

she had no awareness of my H being married in the first few years. He snowed her too.

My WH's AP got married while he was seeing her and he didn't know (this was several years before WH and I met.) so, I've seen this before, where the AP started off not knowing they were an AP and then continuing or going back to the A later (WH broke it off, but resumed the A about 3 years into my relationship with him.)

Saw IC yesterday. Ran some things by him @ my stich. Got a whole lot of yes, you're right. He sees no point in MC for us right now, which I agree, but he does agree as well that WH needs more IC. He did give me some circumstances in which MC might be helpful now for a few brief sessions, but we both think MC is pointless until/unless WH does some other things first.

WH and I will have joint session with my IC soon, but it's not a proxy MC or anything, IC wants to know what I was like when really sick, how I'm doing now, where he sees the future going from WH's perspective.

so, there you go.


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 8:45 AM, August 31st (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

M33 - I just read the article you linked in General on trust. I think it would be a great article for everyone on here too.
I especially liked the part that highlighted the "dimensions of trustworthy behavior."
I can clearly see why I still struggle with trust when I read this section.
Briefly the 3 dimensions include ability, integrity and benevolence.

"Ability refers to an assessment of the other's knowledge, skill or competency. This dimension recognized that trust requires some sense that the other is able to perform in a manner that meets our expectations.
Integrity is the degree to which the trustee adheres to principles that are acceptable to the trustor. This dimension leads to trust based on consistency of past actions, credibility of communication, commitment to standards of fairness, and the congruence of the other's word and deed.
Benevolence is our assessment that the trusted individual is concerned enough about our welfare to either advance our interests, or at least not impede them. The other's perceived intentions or motives of the trustee are most central."

I found this to be so interesting because after 4 1/2 years I still struggle with trusting my H which is definitely taking its toll on both of us.
Looking at each of these dimensions then I guess for me I doubt sometimes that my H has the ability to perform in a manner that meets my expectations based on a history of serial infidelity in his first M and then an 8 year LTA during our M.
As to the integrity dimension it is the "credibility of communication" aspect that impedes my ability to trust. My H has lied throughout his life. Even now, after all that we've been through, I catch him in little white lies and no matter how many times I tell him this is a problem, he still can't seem to break this habit.
But I think it is the benevolence aspect that is my biggest obstacle in trust. Maybe we all have to answer the question implied here - Can we honestly and completely believe in our S's concern for our welfare once they have shown us for an extended length of time during their LTA's that our welfare was never their concern? IMHO it takes a great deal of commitment from them to prove that our welfare and the welfare of our children in now primary above any and all of their needs. I know there may be others who disagree but when our welfare has been so heartlessly disregarded for years it is time for our FWS's to make every effort to assure us that nothing is more important to them than to restore our belief in the value they hold for us.

ETA - thank you M33 for posting this link.

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 8:59 AM, August 31st (Tuesday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 10:57 AM, August 31st (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Good Noon Tribe,

I really feel like the next 4 - 6 weeks will show if we will recover from the LTA or not. If FWW does the things she says that she is going to, if we can both manage the wave of triggers expected during this period, I will feel that we have most of the A-crap behind us and much of my trust restored, and we will be left with just the relationship stuff to work on (and there is PLENTY of that)

OTOH, if after a year of this I am still being manipulated, if we are not able to turn to and support each other during the triggers and antiversary, then I will feel we have given it a good try, but there is just too much damage.

FWW and I are going to see an obgyn this afternoon to see what is required to put her back together again.

We talked last night for a couple of hours. It is nice getting to know my wife , but often painful to listen to. She is really feeling guilty, and unworthy. I spent a lot of time getting her to understand that I am still here because I want to be, that I do have other options. It does neither of us any good for her to feel inferior or unworthy.

We have MC session tomorrow, plenty to talk about I guess.

--Ats


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 11:11 AM, August 31st (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

fnf - you just summed up my IC session from yesterday.

I guess for me I doubt sometimes that my H has the ability to perform in a manner that meets my expectations based on a history of serial infidelity

And, here's the thing: I don't want to be in spy mode, so I don't want to check anymore -- and I always find something anyway so what's the point? So, how does WH prove his ABILITY to be faithful? See, transparency, etc. is designed to slowly prove this, but it backfired for him. And you can't prove a negative.

Soooo.... after some long, hard, careful thought and getting a second opinion from my IC I did decided EXACTLY what my WH needs to do to regain my trust. Obviously I had to think really, really hard, because it's not fair to say "do exactly this" and then it not be enough so I had to be 100% sure. But, I've been pondering it for 4 weeks now.

(1) biweekly IC
(2) post-nup designating certain assets non-marital property
(3) no friendships, i.e. complete NC with any and all former romantic interests
(4)WH must lose weight and get back into the same kind of shape he was in when he played NCAA sports.

They are all non-negotiable.
#4 was the one that made me realize that yes, there was something he could do to regain my trust where I wouldn't need or want to check up on him. The truth is, checking up is a crutch. Your WS has zillions of ways to break NC without you knowing.

But -- WH doesn't exercise now. And he needs to lose 60 or 70 pounds. Getting in shape and losing weight takes consistent physical and mental discipline. It takes effort over a long time. It takes willpower. It's measurable. It's also good for his health, for his self-esteem and, if he does it, will show those people who do know that choosing his M is a good choice for WH -- there's nothing like looking great for people to be convinced things are going well. So, I just know in my heart of hearts that if I say to him, get in awesome shape, and he does it, that would let me know that I'm worth a big effort to him. And I would be able to trust him if I saw him successfully make a big effort like that just because I asked him to.

Because that has been my IC struggle of late, I've been trying to figure out whether he was not doing enough or if there was nothing he could do.


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
strongish
♀ Member
Member # 29259
Default  Posted: 11:41 AM, August 31st (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Relative newbie here and don't know if I belong to this group or not. Two months post DDay for 4 year A by my WH. Does 4 years consitute a LTA?

Posts: 490 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Texas
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 12:09 PM, August 31st (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi strongish, they let me in with "just" 4 years, so welcome to the club!

There is so much more to a LTA, no chance to consider it a slip or a mistake. The fact that our spouse essentially had a seperate life for so long is a big part of what challenges many of us here.

So welcome, we can be a chatty bunch.

--Ats


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 12:13 PM, August 31st (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Welcome. I think anything over 2 years counts -- 2 years seems to be the outer limit of "normal" for the length of an A.

So, talk to us.


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 12:17 PM, August 31st (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Strongish: you belong here. My H's A "only" lasted 1 1/2 years, but I think I belong here because of the nature of their relationship, in addition to the duration. I'm looking forward to learning more about you.

Forgive and M3:

Can we honestly and completely believe in our S's concern for our welfare once they have shown us for an extended length of time during their LTA's that our welfare was never their concern?

Yesterday I gave my H a 3 page letter essentially stating that discovering his A was a life changing experience for me & I need to know that it was a life changing experience for him as well. I then continued to state that otherwise I was maintaining a relationship with someone who lied, day in & day out, unbothered by it, someone who had sex with someone, loved someone, in addition to his wife for that period of time. I then went on to give him a few of the more hurtful things he did during this time - how he could just bounce between women like that boggles the imagination. I then proceeded to show him the things he has done since DDay that undermine the theory that the shock of DDay changed him or that he truly appreciated getting a 2nd chance with our marriage.

He texted me today telling me he hasn't forgiven himself, he thinks about it every day & does not think I should be with him because of it. We will talk about it later - but clearly there are no apparent solutions to this other than time.
And I am mindful of Tryn's statement that we just have to take the risk.

Ats: You know I was just there last week - the 1st antiversary. The only thing I can say is that the 1 year mark seems significant, but it's really not a lot of time to deal with all of this. I think we need to just look for progress. I hope it goes well for you.

G2g.


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 12:42 PM, August 31st (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Good Allgood. Then you've answered that question -- there IS something different. That is very important. I feel like patting you on the back!


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
strongish
♀ Member
Member # 29259
Default  Posted: 2:03 PM, August 31st (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you for welcoming me. My DDay is relatively recent, 2 mos. I say relatively because as you can imagine although he says that he is willing to work towards R, my WH continues to try and sling a portion of the blame for the A back on me.

There is so much more to a LTA, no chance to consider it a slip or a mistake. The fact that our spouse essentially had a seperate life for so long is a big part of what challenges many of us here.
I am struggling with this. Although my initial reaction was to try and stay together I now wonder if I'll ever trust this man again. 4 YEARS of lies and deceit and he won't admit that he actually lied to me. Although there are brief moments of clarity, for the most part my WH remains in a fog. In order to keep some perspective I find myself sharing some of what he says with our MC when I see her individually and with a close friend of his/ours that I a very much respect. I am trying desperately to conduct myself with dignity although there is the constant struggle not to just lose it sometimes.

I think my WH is baffled by my reaction. He is more used to being the "smart" one and is usually able to combat my emotion with logic. This time his logic fails and he repeatedly tries to divert to another point, which I can usually resist. My WH has always been the "stronger" one in our relationship and I think he's frustrated by my reaction and refusal to just "accept" his apology and move on. It felt good today to get confirmation from a friend that they thought I was acting reasonably and with more compassion that my WH deserved. So....I've got that going for me!

[This message edited by strongish at 3:17 PM, August 31st (Tuesday)]


Posts: 490 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Texas
strongish
♀ Member
Member # 29259
Default  Posted: 3:19 PM, August 31st (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just realized there is also a thread for ONS support. Wow! I qualify to be a part of that one too! Jackpot! My WH broke off his 4 year A and then followed that up with 2 ONS's. Does this mean I won the infidelity lottery?

Posts: 490 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Texas
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 3:27 PM, August 31st (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Strongish - how are you? You haven't told us much about you & you just sound ridiculously strong under the circumstances - but it's so hard to tell in black & white sometimes.
I hope you are ok....

(BTW - how is it that he explains the 4 year LTA - I guess I'm just confused by your statement that he won't admit that he lied to you.)

[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 3:29 PM, August 31st (Tuesday)]


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 3:33 PM, August 31st (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Welcome strongish....
IMHO a 4 yr affair DEFINITELY qualifies as membership in our sad little club.
In fact,in my opinion, anything longer than a yr qualifies as long term...
a ONS (one night stand) is one thing... a few months of losing your mind and behaving badly is another... and then there are our spouses....who got into a routine of living a lie for years and years....
you are very new to the process and so is your husband.
This is not an easy thing to get over....
It takes most people YEARS to get over a ONS ...let alone a 4 yr affair!!!
A good book to start with is 'Not Just Friends' by Shirley Glass. If you haven't read it yet..go and get it.
If your husband agrees to read it as well it will help him to understand the severity of the situation.
IC (individual counseling) preserved my sanity....
I think that MC (marriage counseling) is not helpful until both of you have gone to IC and explored your own personal issues first.
And,when you go to your first IC appt...remember..not all ICs are knowledgeable about infidelity... so expect to search for a good match for you.
Many ICs and MCs bring their own baggage to the situation...for example..our first MC was big on telling me that I needed to 'move on'...and stop discussing the affair details!
This was 3 months after d-day! I had found out that my husband had a 5 yr LTA and this man was telling me to 'move on'!!
I stringly suspected that he had been a cheater himself... when I asked him that question he didn't answer me... we stopped seeing him and found a new MC.
But, overall, IC was more valuable for us both.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


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