Wanted to give you big hugs on your antiversay.
You have helped everyone so very much with your wisdom, patience, and kindness, especially me.
I am glad that your marriage is better today and that you are happy. You deserve it.
Everyone is in my thoughts. I am reading and actually am having trouble remembering what I read. I need to take notes.
I do remember a few things, Allgood, I'm glad that you are feeling better and are able to enjoy the moment. Sometimes that's all we can do with the kids....just put everything out of our mind and just laugh and sing and play with our wonderful children.
Ats: Thank you for your post.
I believe you are right. I am in deep conflict.
We had a nice day with the kids. We've always got along.
BUT, you are absolutely right. I cannot make him happy, although I tried for the 22 years that I've known him. I sacrificed so much, my home, my career, being with my older sons by traveling overseas, etc.
I don't think anyone can make him completely happy. Just now, as I'm writing this, I remember him telling me once that way before he met me, he was engaged to 2 women at the same time!!
I had forgotten that!
DS34 and another dear friend suggested that WH is angry with me because I'm not accepting this like OW.
The other thing that is bothering me, just for healing purposes, is: Has WH always been like this, or I didn't see?
Is WH really the man I fell in love with who no longer loves me as he once did, OR
did he change OR
WH was such a good actor, that I really didn't see???
I know only I can answer this, but I think if I can figure it out, it would be helpful for me in moving forward.
How can one accept a situation if one doesn't really know what it is?????
That's what I've been banging my head on a brick wall about.
I was waiting for WH ...to see what he wanted, or what he was doing. I knew what I wanted, but thought I might still be able to get it. Or that I could accept something less as a compromise.
But there are less and less crumbs being offered.
I can't thank everyone enought for helping me through this. I do need your 2 x4's. I do need your advice and opinions.
I am starting to trust my feelings and opinions again but still self doubt. (with all things A related and WH related..... I'm OK with what to do with DS's thank God!!!)
Lost, M3, NJgal, dip, nofun, strongish (someday it will be a new name: STRONGER), UK girl, fnf and anyone my foggy brain forgot I've been reading, even though I didn't always respond. Thank you guys too.
[This message edited by honesttoafault at 7:28 PM, September 9th (Thursday)]
So sweet, BUT WH used to say things like that constantly to me. WH was sitting next to me driving, oblivious to all. It was sweet, and it stung.
I knew it was bologny, but I still loved it. I told him when I met him I'll do anything (within reason) that you ask, but don't TELL me what to do, it'll get my Irish up.
So he would say things like, could you get me a cup of tea, because it tastes so much better when you do it (with a charming smile)
I knew, and HE knew that I knew what he was doing, the lazy bum, but I still liked it and laughed and got him the tea.
I think WH was like a drug for me. I was and still am to a degree addicted to him.
With all the charm and compliments and affection, I put up with a lot of other crap.....
Sorry, all, just rambling, I hope you don't mind.
i am glad you are waiting 6 months, and you know its ok if you need longer, there is no rush for you to take your time with this, especially if he is doing what he needs to do on his end...
as for what he needs to do...well i so suggest you put together a list, the first part is the dealbreakers, like breaking nc, having another a, etc.
the second part is what you need to see from him to feel like he has owned his shit...that he knows what he's done to you, to your marriage and to himself, also the other things like he needs to go and continue through ic, do mc....
the third list is the things that speak to your love language, and also letting him know that as the days go by you may add anything to any of the 3 lists at any point in time...
honest: i triggered a bit reading one of your posts, i cannot go back to it, because reading the words will set me off...the part of who he was possibly before you married or met him...i wish i could say i was in the same boat, only i know this is who pfm was before i ever met him....that is one of the downfalls of not having a before...
for you i think the tendancies were definitely there, but with time grew steadily worse as his ego grew....and then it became like feeding the monster, there is never enough, and there never will be enough...#2 will def have to make room for #3....and if you are still in the picture i'm thinkin that she might just not be too happy with yet another woman in his life...you were already there, but to add another...well that would be her slap in the face...one she deserves...
with any luck maybe she will get fed up first and find herself another man...wouldn't that be a bit of justice now....
Is WH really the man I fell in love with who no longer loves me as he once did, OR did he change OR WH was such a good actor, that I really didn't see???
honest, I will leave the answer in your sich for you to determine, but your question resonates with me. Initially I asked the same question, where is the FWW I married? There are two answers.
1) She is/was in my mind, I married a person I perceived through my filters, expectations, and interpretations. That person never really existed except in my mind.
2) She is right here next to me, this is who she always was. I simply did not see her for who she really is. I saw the girl above.
This led to the next question, how did I miss this? I am trained and paid to evaluate, how did I miss the issues within FWW? I missed them because they were unexpected. Nothing in my experience prepared me for the possibility of a person so emotionally injured as her. Not expecting it, I did not see it. There are many studies where people miss obvious things because they do not expect them. In one recently on television they had people on the street ask strangers for directions, half way through the directions, a crew carrying a large board would walk between the two people, and the person who was asking the question is replaced by another person. The large board prevents the person giving the directions from seeing the actual switch. After the board passes, the person giving the directions continues on, they do not notice the change because it is so unexpected. In retrospect, it is all so clear about FWW and her needs and struggles. I see them now, I did not then. I feel frustration, anger, and guilt that I was so naive for so long.
strongish, I originally gave FWW and my M 3 months, which quickly became 6. So long as we were making progress. At 6 months things were at their worse, but still making progress so I gave it a year. I am coming up on a year. The answer for me will be when she quits, or I get two consecutive months of feeling like it is no longer working. I have had a month of hopelessness, but not yet two. If I ever go through 2 months of hopelessness I have given myself permission to hang us up. If I discover a new A, or that there is significant information about her previous A’s, I am determined to walk away. I also understand that I cannot fix us, I can help her, but most of this is on her because they are her issues.I have continued to work on me. If we do work out I want her and I to be proud of me. If we do not work out, I want her to regret her loss.
You're right. There is no rush and I'm desperately hoping that WH is finally starting to own his shit. I read the book about love languages and I'll start working on that now. I've already told WH some of my dealbreakers, but you're right, it would be best if we talk about that up front. FWIW I'm confident that WH is no longer in contact with OW. She's the one that outed the A to me as he would not resume the relationship. Our MC agrees that she wouldn't have done that if he was still seeing her. But it would help both of us if I could come up with some ideas of the type of behaviors I would like to see from WH. I told him that I want him to "win me back" but since he's never been very creative it's unrealistic to think he would be now. My initial response was that I did want some grand gesture...I don't know, 27 dozen roses, one for each year we've been married; a full-page ad in the newspaper saying why he loves me...you get the idea. Chime in tribe...what do you think would be a grand gesture?
Chime in tribe...what do you think would be a grand gesture?
Sustained IC to discover why he found the idea of an A acceptable and necessary, and to fix that inner issue.
Reading Not Just Friends, Love Languages, and Sexual Detours and then discussing them with you.
Writing out an explanation of the A, what was done, why it was wrong, and what he will do to try to fix things.
A post-nup declaring many key items as your property and not joint property. Contributing to a fund under your control to use to hire an attorney and move out if he ever has another A or just fails to repair the damage.
Buying 324 roses or a full page add is a one-time thing involving money only. A really grand gesture would be something that called for sacrifice on his part and at the same time provided comfort and or safety to you.
I just finished Love Languages and have started Not Just Friends. I was thinking of asking WH to read some of this forum. What do you think?
warning: do not overwhelm him with everything at once...one at a time, or give him the book and a printout everyday...
ats gave you great suggestions for the "grand gesture"...i can understand the need and desire for the romance, to sweep you off your feet, riding in on the white horse....but in real life those things don't mean a thing without the basics in place....
lost soul: i had this cute vision of you sneaking off with a laptop.... ...i know how much your grandbabies mean to you, so enjoy whichever one you will be seeing...
I would be very suspicious of his gifts to you. It could be a coincidence but both of these 'gifts' could easily be ways to spy on you and to control you.
The advice you got before about checking to see if he put any spyware on the computer...is good advice. He may think this is the perfect way to find out in advance what you are planning to do in terms of the divorce and if you are dating etc. Same with the cell phone...will he be getting the bill and records of everyone that you call?
Please go talk to an attorney...you may be surprised to find out that your financial situation is not as bad as you may think.There may be ways to help you and the children.You said he mortgaged the house..but, is there any equity in it? Maybe, that could be the one tangible thing the courts will give you.. the house... because they will realize that he can leave the country and never look back..never pay you or the boys one cent of child support!
When a judge hears that he has married another woman , and has fathered 3 children with her and supports her and the kids in a very generous manner....well...the judge will NOT have any trouble making a positive judgement for you and your children here.
Your husband has made his choice..he only hangs around a bit to save face... he makes these little gestures to you and the kids to keep you all on a short string...to keep you satisfied... and in his mind in a few days he will be going back to his new reality...
so sorry that you have to live through this!
keep going to the IC!
Sorry I have been out of touch this week. Has been a little difficult.
After very intense HB (almost daily) things have gone awry. For some reason H has suddenly been unable to perform this week. If it wasn't for my tech toys I would have thought he was up to mischief again.
Anyway, I'm now concerned he has lost interest in me. He swears not the case and seems annoyed with himself when he has probs. I keep telling him not to worry about it.
He has been marvellous in every other way. eg Last night when he came home from work we were just lying in bed cuddling and he said "You are a good wife". I told him "Yes I am and I appreciate you saying that".
I suppose I'm just trying to interpret these problems performing. Is this something Whs go through? I just hope it's not because he's missing OW3 or getting bored with me.
Much as I try to be strong I get very insecure at times.
BTW today would have been my mum's birthday (her funderal was 26th May this year 2 days before my Dday) so guess I'm just a little down too.
Sorry I haven't been able to respond to everyone else. I really do empathise with what you are all going through but this week for some reason I have had heaps of trouble concentrating and it seems that no matter how many times I read posts they don't sink in and I can't follow what's going on.
HUGS to all
Forgot to include in previous post. I think part of the reason I'm feeling as I am is because I still have this fear about who he really is. I keep trying to think if his behaviour is REALLY different to what it was during the last 16yrs when he was having his affairs.
Am I just being conned again????????
Honest, Njgal has some good advice there.
About accepting something you don't know about -- well, I don't know a lot about quarks, but I accept that they're out there.
For me, I think my level of acceptance is something along the lines of "wow, he really f'ed everything up big time." I have no idea what he was thinking, or whether or not he'll do it again but I can certainly accept that it happened and that he doesn't really, at his core, give a rats ass about me or our kids. ACTIONS not words.
You see, honest, we're the type of people who say what we mean. to us, there is little point in lying -- so the cognitive dissonance created by it is strong to us. We'd rather believe the words and excuse the actions -- when the best route is to believe the actions and discount the words. So, if you look back through that filter you might be able to answer your own question. In fact, I think you DID answer your own question when you wrote that he'd once been engaged to two women at the same time.
ATS -- I liked your answer about "who is your WS?" I have no idea if this is just rambling or useful to y'all but I'll throw in my two cents. My WH is ALMOST EXACTLY who I thought he was. I just didn't think he'd cheat. You see, I believed he loved me. Cheating on someone you love is stupid and self-destructive. I thought he was smart and not self destructive and that he loved me. That is the part I got wrong.
Strong -- ATS has made a good list there. I will say, it was only very recently, a few weeks ago, that I started to realize what would really be on my list. so, 9 months post Dday is when I started getting an idea of what he could do. But I really like ATS's list -- especially the IC and postnup.
We get all the pain, none of the gain. I'm struggling mightily with the injustice of it and she gently told me that at some point I'm going to have to come to terms with that or walk away. She recognizes that a part of me wants my WH to suffer as I have, but doesn't think that that will ever happen. So...how much do I love this guy? Enough to bury those feelings? Is that forgiveness?
Actually, you have to come to terms with it period. Whether you walk away or not. That's why its not a good idea to walk away until you've come to terms with it. Once you have, you might find that you don't want to walk away.
Your WS will never suffer the way you have, that is true. They suffer in their own, different ways. I hope that you don't want to be the sort of person who wishes suffering on anyone anyway.
You don't bury those feelings. You CAN'T (I tried.) They are so powerful, they will find their way to the surface no matter what. You find appropriate ways to release them. Maybe to your spouse, by writing letters to yourself, a support group, a journal, a friend ... whatever works for you.
Your IC is giving you advice about your M -- how lashing out at your WH isn't helping your M -- but right now you need to help YOU. Your M is D-E-A-D, dead. Maybe you want it back. Maybe you don't, but you certainly want to be whole and healed. And you will be. It takes different amounts of time for different people, but one day you will wake up and realize that you're fine -- great even -- and life will go on.
So, the idea that WS's suffer to isn't so popular -- especially when so many seem to be NOT suffering -- but I believe they do any way you cut it; and the thing about it is that their suffering takes on a near-eternal temporality, whereas yours has an end in some sense. The remorseful ones have to look themselves in the mirror each morning. The unremorseful ones, well, they suffer from whatever character defect(s) keep them from feeling remorse. And, of course, they all suffer some from the natural consequences of their actions.
Or, to illustrate it a little more in the vernacular: my explantion of WH's choices "He either has to give up half his stuff and pay me $50K+ a year in child support for the next 25 years or live the rest of his life with a woman who knows exactly how big of a jackass he really is."
Edited for content a little and also to add -- wow, I sound angry this morning.
[This message edited by m334455 at 6:16 AM, September 10th (Friday)]
I'm sorry about your Mom.
The remorseful ones have to look themselves in the mirror each morning. The unremorseful ones, well, they suffer from whatever character defect(s) keep them from feeling remorse.
I hadn't thought of that.
Boy I just re-read that and I still sound so bitter...I guess I am still angry and bitter....
Does anybody feel regret that they married their spouse? I feel so much regret that I didn't see H for who he really was or is and if I knew that he was capable of causing me so much pain, I would have never ever married him. I look back and there were so many warning signs that I beat myself up regularly for being so damn stupid.
m3: you sound more then just angry to me...i cannot put my finger on exactly what is coming across, but i would say its a bit of detachment mixed in with some resentment and lots of something else i can't quite figure out yet...too early in the am...
on the ws suffering: i understand it is not popular, but to me necessary to understand...i do not believe that their suffering compares to ours though...i do believe they have lots of issues that they need to unroot and deal with, and in dealing with those issues may be a great deal of pain....that pain cannot be compared to what the bs feels.....that would be comparing apples to oranges, they are both fruit, just different kind of fruit....as for the pain the ws feel because of being the cause of our strife, now that one to me is more of a comparable because that one is 2 people experiencing the same experience for 2 different perspectives....and no matter how you slice it, we are in pain by their choices which is like looking to me at a car accident with a drunk driver, the drunk driver knowingly made poor choices that affect the others involved forever....the others involved were not privvy to the info that this drunk driver would be on the road when they were....
and with infidelity, now mix in the fact that this is supposed to be someone you love...like now the drunk driver is driving his/her children....
i had a nightmare last night, woke up crying, still crying a bit....it was so so real....pfm screwed me over when it came to finally going for the divorce...and it was so real because i believe he will do just that...the people in my dream were all doing what i know that they would do under the circumstances....every person was acting the way they do irl....including pfm
so i wake up this am, pfm comes into the bedroom, and i tell him some of my dream...what does he do, takes this opportunity to plead his case...all the fucking words i no longer want to hear...just words...so i tell him that is not what i need to hear, he tries to tell me that he will take care of me, when i ask him to be specific, i get, "well what do you need"....and not with the certainity that would give me any assurance that he will support me...everytime i ask him these kinds of questions i get answers that tell me that there are certain things that just don't change...
yesterday, he went into brooklyn to pick up my mom, told me all the times that he would be at which destination and on his way home...well he ended up being late...didn't tell me until 15 min prior to when i get dinner ready, and this was a call to let me know he picked up my mom and they were on the way home, we live 45 minutes from her house with no traffic, and this was during rush hour....and i knew i was feeding him and my mom...very inconsiderate of me and my mom...it ended up that i made fish, so it was an easy delay...but had i made anything else, my mom would be eating a cold dinner, or we would all be eating a very dry or burned dinner if we waited for them...
these are the only phone calls i told him i want when he knows, to be considerate and let me know so i can plan dinner or whatever accordingly...common consideration...something he never did either before d-day....
so this am after pleading his case, he gets up to leave telling me he will talk to me later, he calls me every morning to tell me he got to work...it shows up on the caller id...its one way for him to prove to me he is where he says he is...meanwhile who's to say that he stays there...NOT...or that there isn't someone at work...it wouldn't be the first one at work....he calls me to tell me when he is leaving work to come home at the end of the day, again he thinks this is proof of wherabouts...NOT...anyways i keep telling him i don't want these phone calls anymore, i want detachment as much as possible...these annoying phone calls i still get...so this am when he said he would talk to me later, i told him i would rather he didn't....the only phone calls i want and require are the ones like the one i should have gotten yesterday...small argument on my part, because once again he pleads his case...he is always pleading his fucking case to remain my husband how he is a changed man....or now he is a changed man and is still changing...he is not all that i require he knows but he feels he is changed enough and wants me to change my mind....
ASSHOLE: you would think at the very least that the idiot would get certain things right by now...but NOT....and this am when i needed to know that he would not screw me over like he did when we were married, all i get is pleading...he didn't change enough, he is still the self-centered ego driven person he was then, only difference now is i now see him for who he really is....
sorry for the long winded stuff, i needed to purge....and now i need to change my focus and make this trigger null and void...
[This message edited by iwantamiracle at 7:00 AM, September 10th (Friday)]
Actually, you have to come to terms with it period. Whether you walk away or not. That's why its not a good idea to walk away until you've come to terms with it. Once you have, you might find that you don't want to walk away.
m334455 - you're right of course. This is something I'm just going to have to find a way to accept one way or the other. I hoping/praying that in the end I don't want to walk away, but most days it seems so bleak. Do I really expect WH to change? Can he FEEL remorse? IC asked me if I can remember a time when he expressed emotion. The last time was 6 years ago when our oldest entered a military academy and WH cried. That was before the A started so was that the beginning of his uber-compartmentalizing of his feelings?
The post-nup...here's what I can hear him saying..."Well, if you need a fund then I need a fund too. How do I know that you won't just clean out our bank account?" (I handle the finances.) Help me out...what do I say to that? I already tried to write a list of what I called boundries and he had to re-write them to make them more "equal." He called them my demands.
you certainly want to be whole and healed. And you will be. It takes different amounts of time for different people, but one day you will wake up and realize that you're fine -- great even -- and life will go on.
I so want to be "fine" again. I can remember what that felt like and right now it feels like a lifetime ago. This is a living nightmare..still. (DDay was 6/29/10.) Please, please keep telling me that some day I will feel fine again.
There is a thread in another forum about how the aftermath of infidelity compares to the death of your S. There are so many parallels and yes, my M is D-E-A-D, so is the man that I thought I had married. There is someone else there now and sometimes he resembles the guy I married but sometimes he is a stranger. I used to think that I would never stay with someone who treated me so poorly as to have had a 4+ year A, but in reality I just can't walk away yet.
I appreciate the sounding board here. This is like journaling for me and most of all it helps to have the wisdom of those who have BTDT.
Someday you will feel fine again.
Miracle -- perhaps you should tell pfm that he will know he has changed enough when he no longer wants you to change your mind.
Ok, I think we all feel resentment. That might be harder to let go than anger. See, there are three lies in infidelity -- the infidelity itself, the lies to cover up the infidelity, and the lie of exclusivity. Not everyone is bothered by all of them. Personally, I'm only bothered by the lie of exclusivity. He got one over on me. That sucks.
Detachment -- well, we all know I'm vigoriously working on detachment. I think it's working. It's starting to show.
I had 4 triggers in a row last night, and then when WH came home he was needy. Maybe that's what's coming through this morning. That, or I did almost get hit by a car riding my bike this morning. Much like my Wh thinking marriage is fidelity-optional, this driver thought his/her STOP sign was optional...
The triggers -- well, they'll always be there. I do well usually, but these were bam! bam! cheating song on the radio in the car, then we walk in the house and the Catholic paper has an article about Retrouvaille and broken marriages and my son starts talking about OW's son (that kid has a memory like an elephant!) and then his handout from school is about how we need to teach our children about Christian Chastity and how important it is to regulate our sexual activity in accordance with our state in life . . . then WH is questioning MY committment to HIM -- which is just laughable. He's a human merry-go-round. He's just home from work, with the kids running all around and he wants to know if I'm going to leave him -- out of the blue -- he must have had . . . ah. that's it. There's something going on with him. I went over to hug him from behind when he got home Wednesday night and he was using his work Blackberry - the one I dont have access too, and he sort of turned away, so I couldn't see the screen and snapped that he's just doing something for work. I walked off and told him calmly that I was just trying to give him a hug and kiss since he just got home. Last night, I walked into the computer room just as he was about to check his e-mail and he didn't check it, he left instead. Then this out of the blue needy "are you going to leave me?" speech. Ah.
I was thinking of asking WH to read some of this forum. What do you think?
strongish, there a was a time I hoped that FWW would read and participate on SI. I thought the waywards could be of help to her. Her reading did help some early on, but it has become a negative now. There are thiings I will not post because of her anticipated reaction. She seems to scan and pull out all of the negative stuff and none of the positive stuff. So maybe print some things out. The books too are a great start. Amazon is our friend