and yes it sucks that he is the one who fucked up royally and you still need to compensate for his diffiencies...
This rings true for me, especially tonight. Had another meltdown, and I was feeling so strong earlier today. I'm still thrown off by how quickly my moods can swing, of course, it doesn't help that WH is so dense. He still expects/wants me to tell him what to do to "fix" me. God forbid he admits that HE has work to do. No mention EVER of his failings, except that he made a "mistake." He admitted it so why do I keep harping on it. I toldhim that I keep harping on it because I don't see that he is doing any REAL work to heal this. He made this mess and now he expects me to tell him how to get out of it! I've told him more times than I can count that he has to do some serious work to make me feel like I'm his #1 priority but nothing has changed. He sends me nice text message about how he misses in the morning (when he is out of town, AGAIN) and is nice to me at home...offers to clean up the dishes after dinner. But in the 3 mos. since DDay he has not done one thing on his own to make this right. No changes in his job(s) that take him out of town 5-6 nights/week, still flying with the airlines with layovers in cities where he had ONS x 2 (although I did put my foot down about not flying to the city where the OW lives), has not talked to or admitted to anyone what he has done. In the past three months I've cried every other day, been so distraught I could barely function, but he doesn't miss a thing he has to do for business. I've read four books, been to the bookstore, sought advice from here and friends that have survived infidelity...he's read what I've put in front of him, but only then after he asked for the synopsis of the book and I refused to give it to him. No effort to do anything on his own without being told to do it. Hmmmm, sound a little passive to anyone?
I'm still so angry. I know that I have to move past it but it just surges when he starts acting so indignant that I'm not acknowledging his "efforts." Maybe he can never be what I need. I need someone who can FEEL and empathize. After 3 months I'm not seeing any changes.
him doing the work: all you can do is TELL him what you require, what you need and what will send him packing...after that plant some seeds here and there hopefully there will be sprouts signifiying change...if not after a certain amount of time and help (ic needs to be one of the requirements, for you as much as him) then you may have to re-evaluate...but for now sit tight and remember seeds and lists....
and changes take time, work and consistancy....all of them....without them the changes will be minute at best, probably null...
nite all (((tribe)))
Moving past this is like acting like it never happened, sweep it under the rug, which is a common first reaction by many WS's.
You need to heal, and it takes a long time. The rollercoaster ride is intense in the first few months, so try to strap yourself in, get some IRL support and post here.
DO NOT keep his A a secret. WH needs to see some consequences of his actions.
WH needs to see some consequences of his actions.
I guess that's the injustice part still eating away at me...other than listening to me rant there have been no consequences for him. My world has been blown apart but his...not so much. Thanks for the support tonight. Just really down tonight.
I just read your profile and found out that you and I actually have the same Dday. Mine was 28th June but as I am in Australia and we are ahead of you I susupect it was actually same time if not same date.
The rollercoaster is bad isn't it. I'm finding tonight that for no good reason I'm feeling down. I try to always keep positive but the mood swings still come.
H is on mixed day and evening shift at present so home a little more often in the evenings. I so want us to enjoy each other's company because he is at work so often in the evenings. I don't want to feel down and negative. He is very sensitive to my moods now - never seemed to be before - wonder why?
Anyway, no matter how much I try to hide down feelings he sees them. He says that there are spots on my cheeks which change when I'm upset. He's never noticed these before!!! Or maybe he just didn't care.
I suppose I just wanted to tell you all this because I thought it might help to know. We are both so "new". I do feel a little better than I did 2 months ago which gives me hope.
I think that's what we have to hang onto. Hope. I think my H is probably trying a little harder than yours at present but the fact that you are separated so much might be slowing the process for you. Stay hopeful and hang in there.
In my darkest moments I wonder if it's all an act!! He ACTED for 16yrs and I get really frightened that it's more of the same. If it is an act - well I can't write what I'll do to him - I might ened up in jail!! Surely he couldn't be so cruel???
Unfortunately I have read on so many posts on here about WS's who are. I guess if I find that it is the case - that he's acting and trying to con me into a false sense of security - I hope and believe that I won't care. Because I'll recognise him for the POS he is!!!
Hope you had some sleep and you're feeling a little better now. I'll have to look up the time over there so I'll know where you are all up to.
He told me that the sex with OW was actually gross. So why would he tell me in the beginning of this whole ordeal that it was exciting and now it was gross.
nofun, I got similar from FWW. They were friends and she was fond of them, now they were using her and she is disgusted to have been so needed. The sex was exciting; they "fit in a special way" that she misses, now she is disgusted to even think about it.
What changed is her perception. Just like I used to be an uncaring, unemotional bastard that did not like her or my step-daughters. Now I am seemingly perfect.
So at the time of the LTA I imagine the sex seemed exciting, he was entitled to it, the relationship was special. Now looking back with new perceptions and acknowledging the relationship for what it was, I can understand the sex being recalled as gross.
Congratulations on your progress.
Strongish - I don't think that 3 months is enough time to see progress. The only progress I saw was NC and H agreed to MC. That was it. I got no emotional support what so ever. I finally saw some sort of empathy and remorse about 9 months out. And at that point he admitted he missed OW. I bit my tongue, but that hurt. I still wonder about H missing OW. H is just now after 15 months starting to talk.
Allgood - Don't throw your hands in the air yet...last night was the first time I felt my H talked a little bit. It wasn't for long, maybe 5 minutes and then I could tell he was uncomfotable so he got up and left the room. And he actually asked me what was wrong with me the night before. He NEVER EVER asks my anything about "how I'm feeling or why." He still gets defensive though and that makes me pissed off, but I bite my tongue now. I've been finding that if I can control myself and be calm, (oh it's so hard)I might get more of a response.
So what is the plan? It feels good to have a plan.
He ACTED for 16yrs and I get really frightened that it's more of the same. If it is an act - well I can't write what I'll do to him - I might ened up in jail!! Surely he couldn't be so cruel???
Laura - mine acted for 12 years and this is the one thing I'm afraid of. I already have a plan in case this is what he is doing. I can't let my guard down and I keep him at arms length. It's sad that this is how I now live.
(((honest)))) I'm thinking of you.
Thanks miracle for your insight. You are a savior.
i do not see this, i am sorry...if that is what this is about then i don't see it...instead i see maybe you are withdrawing in a way from the conflict of us telling you what we think you need to do and you taking the time you may or may not need to either do it or figure something else out...
No, let's agree to disagree. If I get my needs out here -- then I don't need as much at home. Now, until recently, there wasn't anything at home to get in this regard, so you do what you can do...
Let's face it, as a pregnant and then postpartum bipolar, of course I couldn't deal.
Honest -- for YOU conflict avoiding by venting to us is perfectly fine. You're not going to get anywhere with your WH so it's better to just keep the peace with him until you figure out what you're going to do and get your ducks lined up.
Strong -- pick ONE thing that would help. Something concrete. I see you already chose one -- your WH not flying to the city where the main OW lived. Now, pick another. Baby steps.
Laura28 - My guess would be that your WH was NOT acting. WS's have an amazing ability to compartmentalize. To them, you and the A's have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with one another.
Ok -- update number one:
I pondered and pondered how to get WH to listen. And I realized that this is going to have to come at him in very small chunks.
So, I started with something recent and not A-related: the fight we had at the beach where he pushed me and screamed in my face that "this marriage has always been shitty for him" (and let's not forget he was drunk.
Well, with my hard-won we'll say maybe 85% detachment I can tell you that there is NO WAY I would have made it through this discussion without it, or what I've learned about manipulation, blameshifting, etc.
I said: "when we were at the beach you said this marriage has always been shitty for you and you pushed me. Is that true?"
Ok, I was going to recount the whole conversation, but I just realized it's ridiculous.
So, first he stridently denied it ever happened. Twice. THEN he said he MIGHT have said he was having a shitty vacation.
Then he said he doesn't feel that way and he loves me very much and our marriage and our children and our little family (Ok: so here we DO finally get an answer to the question asked.)
Then, he denied it ever happened again. Then he said that I misunderstand everything he says.
Then I told him that I am NOT crazy, I did NOT imagine it and it DID happen. So, he said He's disturbed I needed to talk about it and I'm just trying to make it like there's something wrong with him or he's got problems and he's perfectly happy and everything is fine.
So I said I was disturbed that he really doesn't remember that or claims not to. He said "It's not fair" anyway for me to bring up something that happened when he was drunk and I "made him mad" (let's remember, the fight started because I took all the older kids out to the movies and came home to find WH drunk while he was supposed to be taking care of the babies and my friends stated he complained about how horrible I was the whole time -- which he denied -- and then they reiterated it very forcefully when he went to the bathroom and then they all started in on me when I got back and I said I just don't have to listen to this and left so he got mad and followed me to chew me out for leaving the room since he did nothing wrong... ugh.)
Anyhoo -- I told him I thought about the statement a lot and decided it was important to ask because if it's true that's a big problem and something needs to be done about it. And he re-iterated it's not true so I pointed out "misunderstanding/problem solved."
I think there was some "you have no right to feel that way" going on in there too.
And some "it was so long ago (uh -- 8 weeks? not so long) and it's not fair to bring it up now.
I also apologized for being uncomfortable with talking to him and that I'm trying and I hope I'll get better at it. (This apology was COMPLETELY unecessary, I know but more flied with honey than vinegar)
I think we can ALL see why I became uncomfortable with talking to him over the years. Jeesh. Is that not the most emotionally abusive conversation or what? Denying, minimizing, blaming the victim, invalidation, blameshifting, flat out lying, agressing, verbal assaults, I mean, good lord!
THAT is why if this M is going to survive we will have to go to MC eventually.
So, that's update one.
Next -- getting rid of XHSGF FB friend.
this am on my power walk, one of the gentlemen who usually walks with his wife, she was not present today, when i asked if she was ok, he said its a bit of a story so he turned around and walked with me to tell me about it...well one thing led to another and after he had told me lots of personal info, with my responses being as they were with his questions, we talked about his first 2 marriages, his daughters impending divorce...so many different personal topics, then he asked me a pointed question after i answered a general question...and i opened up and told him about pfm...the shortened version, without particulars, he did then what people usually do, offered his sympathy and support...well then his wife came into the park and was coming over, at this point in time he introduced himself (did not know each others names, peeps that you just say hi to and how are you)...his name was chuck and then as his wife is walking over, not quite there yet he tells me her name....and this is "miriam"...well this is the same name as #2, the 12 year judge....and i felt ok, no grimace, a short well that figures in my mind, so i tell chuck, "thank your wife for me, she has given me a new face to go with the name since her name is one of my husbands other women...its not like this is a common name....
the reason for the post...I DIDNT TRIGGER....it didn't bring in that raw pain that you get in your heart, the one that makes you feel angry, hurt and sad all at the same time....so yay me....
i bet you all thought i was gonna tell you how he came on to me werent you!!! or something along those lines!!!...
have an awesome day ((((tribe))))
Was I that bad that he would stoop that low? This is what goes through my mind.
Of course not, it was not about you. His self-esteem, sense of worth was so bad he had to find somebody he could feel comfortable and superior around. Deep inside, he may feel insecure around you, he may view himself as not as good as you, you are the normal one. This is how FWW viewed (views?) me. She did not feel good enough for me, she presumed I resented her for not being good enough, so she found unattractive, damaged men as AP's to meet her need that she was unwilling to bring to me, because she felt unworthy.
On the other hand, an AP is just someone close by and willing. There is NOTHING special about him or her other than a low self-esteem and a poor sense of boundaries. When he started fishing, she was the only one available (or when she started fishing, he was available).
Nice irl experience iwam.
i bet you all thought i was gonna tell you how he came on to me werent you!!!
umm, no...I figured you would have come on to him , but I think you can do better than a thrice divorced man trying to pick-up married moms on their power walk.
m334455, good for you! What you describe fits with the discussions in the book How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It: Finding Love Beyond Words
And, I will discuss my long term plan with you when I see you IRL.
As far as Mr. Allgood goes, I truly do not believe he will ever reach a point where he can be a significant part of my healing. And, I am really ok with that. I had a big discussion with him this morning & it is just so clear he doesnt get it & is otherwise so uncomfortable discussing his feelings that expecting this is a waste of time. I'm completely serious & I'm totally fine with that. Like I said, long term plan...
As brief as possible for those who don't know.
I found out last Nov that my husband was having a 7 year affair that began when I was pregnant with our first baby. 2 months after we got married.
Over the years I had always suspected. Asked. Investigated. I pulled the kids out of her girl scout troop. Forbade my husband to be at her every beck and call. Etc. Etc.
Finally his stories just weren't adding up. I went to the source for the truth. Which she told me. I had suspected *something* had happened all those years ago. What I didn't know was that he was still pursuing her as recently as 2 months before I found out the truth. It was like being kicked in the gut.
The roller coaster is maddening. I had started seeing a psyche in August in order to address my issues with past sexual abuse as a child. Then this. I've been so afraid of sabotaging the reconciliation that I've stopped talking to him when I'm feeling crappy. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse. He's sorry. He's ashamed. He's changed. He wishes he could take it back, but he can't. I know this. I understand this. So what's the point of pointing out his mistake over and over again? Either move forward or not, right?
Every other minute I feel like yes it's going to be ok, and no, I don't know if I can ever get over the pain he has caused me. He was an (admittedly) lousy husband to me our entire marriage. On top of it, he was doing this.
The pain of knowing he was doing this when I was fighting so hard to keep our family together hurts me SOOO bad! When I have a trigger it spirals into a deep sadness. I want to cry and scream and run away!!
If I look at what we are today, I'm ok. He wants me to consider the person he is today, and not the person he was then. I get this. I do. But *I* am not the same person anymore BECAUSE of this. How can I discount all that's happened when so much of who I am today is because of it? I've lost so much and gained a little. I didn't ASK to be changed in these ways. A marriage is supposed to allow growth of each person in the right direction. Mine was all wrong.
How I can look at this man everyday who has brought me nothing but pain and regret our whole marriage? Our relationship is irreparably broken. Sure, it can be peiced together and glued, but it will never be the same. I don't know if it will be better. I don't tend to make decisions without knowing what the outcome will be. If I follow a recipe, I will have a cake at the end of it. If I wing it without directions, I have a mess. What happens when you follow the recipe and you still end up with a mess?!?! It's not supposed to work that way!! I want my cake dammit!!
I love him. I believe he loves me. I believe in his change. I just don't know if it's too late for us. I don't know if I will ever be able to be who he wants me to be anymore. I can't go back to the girl. He's taken her away from me. If I'm not who he wants, it's his own fault.
Ugh. Rambling. Rambling. Getting ready to see my psyche urgently at 1:30. My meds are being mismanaged. My anxiety is through the roof. I'm completely ineffective. My thoughts spinning. My wheels spinning. I'm exhausted. I can't make any sort of decision right now with my brain all sorts of misfiring. I guess I really "can relate" to a lot of you. It's helpful to know my kind of crazy is normal. But will it ever get better? I need a solid answer to this in order to figure out what to do.
We're all married to the same person here, trust me.
Let's start with THIS:
I don't know if I will ever be able to be who he wants me to be anymore. I can't go back to the girl. He's taken her away from me.
(1) It's time for you to be who YOU want to be. Who cares what/who he wants you to be? It's your life. If he does not want the person you are, you will be happier without him. You don't live a relationship; you live a life. AND -- don't worry about not being able to go back to the girl -- it's much better to become the woman.
And also this is something to think about as well:
The pain of knowing he was doing this when I was fighting so hard to keep our family together hurts me SOOO bad!
It hurts, but you won't regret having fought that fight. If your marriage doesn't survive this -- you'll always be able to look your children in the eye and say you did your best. No matter whether they ever dare to say the same or not: this can never be true of our WS's.
He's sorry. He's ashamed. He's changed. He wishes he could take it back, but he can't.
These are WORDS. What is he DOING? How has he changed?
I know this. I understand this. So what's the point of pointing out his mistake over and over again? Either move forward or not, right?
There is a reason you haven't been able to move forward yet. Is he not doing enough? Is this a dealbreaker for you? Is it because of your SAB (some people liken the feeling of being a betrayed spouse to rape)? You need to figure out why you're not moving forward -- but don't BLAME yourself for being stuck -- it's normal and it's not your fault.
*I* am not the same person anymore BECAUSE of this.
Iwant - wow, this is awesome. And I thought you were going to say something different!!!
ats - I think you hit the nail on the head. I often feel like he is intimidated by me.
He wants me to consider the person he is today, and not the person he was then.
What has he done to show you that he has changed?
My WW tells me that she doesn't want to be "that" person anymore but to me, she IS the same person. She has not proved to me that she is any different, any less broken or any less likely to cheat again.
She tells me that she "will never cheat again"... I just tell her "yah, that's probably what you would have told me before the last time."
Welcome. You will find much help here if you hang around. Yes your kind of crazy is normal. We all have it here. Like you said, you did not ask to ride this rollercoaster, but you are on it anyway. All WSs want the A to just go away. They just do not understand how much their A has impacted and changed us BSs. You will get better with time.
Hugs to the tribe.
I've been so afraid of sabotaging the reconciliation
No, your relationship has already been more than sabotaged; it has been blown apart by the lta. As long as you are expressing how you feel, stating your needs, setting boundaries you need to feel safe, you are doing what is acceptable and expected. If giving voice to these things interferes with R, then there was no relationship to R anyway (see comments above about the lta blowing things apart).
I don't know if I will ever be able to be who he wants me to be anymore.
Anymore?, were you ever? The affair is not about you. It is about your WS and who he is (was?), but then you have been here long enough to know that. I am just giving a gentle reminder. We each need to be the bestest ME we can be, and then see who we get along with. This is a tough lesson to learn. It can be frightening to be absolutely honest about who we are, what if people do not like us? They might abandon us. Never the less, I encourage you to figure out how to be the bestest you you can be, and go for it. If your WS follows along, great. If not, you have taken the first step on your new and ultimately happier life.
I want my cake dammit!!
What flavor will your cake be? What shape, will it be? Do you need a mix, or will it be from scratch? Do you have the pans, beaters, etc? Do you have all the ingredients? I suspect you have some of the supplies already left over from the earlier cake your WS ruined. Other supplies will have to be replaced as they are now spoiled, broken, or no longer fit your plans for the new cake.
Once you know what you want to do and what you need to do it you are ready to begin. As you start to work on your cake your WS may decide to join you, you will have to decide if you are going to trust him. After all, he dropped the first one you had worked so hard on. It may be you do not need him to complete your cake, or you may find someone else who is better. If you do decide to let him help, watch him to see if he is capable of doing what you need. HE will say that he is, but watch him since actions speak louder than words. Give him little tasks to try him out. If he fails on one of the little tasks, no great loss and you will know not to trust him with any important tasks. Remember, he has already shown some deficits in the cake making department, so you may need to help teach him some. At least get him a good cookbook or some baking lessons. If you can explain to him what you need to complete the cake, if you can both talk honestly about cake making, you have the possibility of making a bigger and better, and sweeter cake than you ever imagined.
Ok, not that relevant but had to share.
"I can't believe you tried to sneak extra milk in the cake batter!"