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User Topic: Long Term Affair Part 20
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 1:04 PM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

AHEM...

Dip, Tryn, everyone paying attention? Good.

i love all the stuff ats added....

thanks iwam


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 3:50 PM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I’m just crashing through really quickly here.

((((m33)))) hug hon. The turmoil of what you should say, what you shouldn’t say, what your h is stepping up to and what he isn’t, him saying you’re his best friend, yet you don’t see it that way and ………. The List. I pretty much agree with everything that miracle and ats have said. With one proviso. Don’t make the list too long or too verbose. It kinda looks daunting and sometimes a molehill can look like a mountain. My take is three things at a time, but saying you want to work towards other targets. The most important one is get that fucking XHSGF off his FB friend list. (Sorry, major trigger there!!!) There is NO need for him to be “friends” with her. It should not be an issue. And, as ats says, if he would die for you, why would he D over this triviality? Hardly the end of the world, is it?

OK. Rushing off. Busy time. Trying to finish the decorating and cleaning through like a whirling dervish. DS3 is coming home!! Dip in when I can; that'll be tomorrow now.

Take your time m33. Time is on your side.


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3328 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
Laura28
♀ Member
Member # 28997
Default  Posted: 4:18 PM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi m33

I've just spent some time catching up on last nights posts and don't have a lot of time before work.

All of the responses contain much wisdom and I don't think I have anything more to offer in the way of advice about your list.

The one thing that jumps out at me in reading your posts is the phrase "I'm afraid that..."

I think we are all so vulnerable. I think we all do love our WSs or we wouldn't be here. We talk about healing ourselves and R but deep down what I think all we want is a happy secure marriage. If someone could wave a magic wand and promise us this we could move on with our Ss so much more quickly.

The reality is that before our Ddays we trusted and so we weren't AFRAID because our worldview didn't include betrayal.

Now that this worldview has changed FEAR has replaced TRUST. We never thought about TRUST because we believed it was a given. Now we think about FEAR all the time. We all want to get rid of the FEAR and regain that TRUST but the betrayal makes it SOOOO hard.


I know this sounds patently obvious but maybe we need to be explicit with our Ss. I think for the majority of us the pain is a physical manifestation of our fears.

Your list is a cry for help to your H to take away your fear and return the trust. Maybe if you say that somewhere in your intro he will "get it".

Just a few thoughts from a very inexperienced BS.

Will be thinking of you.

Laura


Married 30yrs Me BW 57Yrs Him FWH 59yrs
OWzero 1988 EA?/PA? Gaslighted.
Dday May 28 2010.
OW1 1994(6mths PA, EA til dday).
OW2 2002(8yrs PA).
OW3 2009(1Yr PA).
Others???? Status: Not Divorcing..but.."You can't unfuck the goat"

Posts: 2729 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Australia
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 4:51 PM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

First off - I think M3's list is great. I may use it myself, who knows...

And, Laura - you are absolutely correct - I just had a hissy fit this morning & essentially behaved like a 2 year oldthat didnt get her way. Of course, I found a way to be angry with myH even though it didn't really have anything to do with him.
After I calmed down, I realized that I'm just angry with my H in general & the slightest amount of stress will have it rise to the surface.
I then started thinking along the lines of what you were saying Laura. In fact, for better or worse, I have made it very clear to my H that I do not have that "in love" feeling for him even though I love him. I've told him that maybe it's just because I'm just too sad to feel that emotion right now & it will come back. Today, I realized it's fear based. In fact, I texted my H that just today saying that I'm just too afraid of getting hurt again & that appears to be driving a lot of my thoughts & behaviors. (I know M3 had said something last week about us being so committed to our marriages, yet we need to be able to leave it at will. That has stuck with me too.)

So - we are back to time again & taking that leap of faith. 2 things I do not excel at...


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
nofun
♀ Member
Member # 24546
Default  Posted: 6:31 PM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

M3 - I think I'm going to take some things from your list also. Ats and miracle and Laura are wise, but you are also wise. Oh if I only had wisdom!!!!!

Allgood- I told my H 3 weeks ago ( he asked if I loved him) I said NO...I don't. I care about him but that "in love" feeling is just not there. He said, maybe someday you will love me again. It's just sad. But I am afraid he will hurt me again. I told him this. I fear this. I don't think I could handle it. So how do I get past this feeling? Am I going to be stuck here forever? Geesh!


BS (me) 56
WH 61
M 36 yrs
OW - 55 - Howdy Doody Look Alike
3 Awesome Adult C
DD 6/7/09
LTA 12 years.
Confused: D or R???

Posts: 987 | Registered: Jun 2009
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 7:03 PM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

fun: i think you love your husband very much indeed.....it wouldn't hurt so much if you didn't...

and allgood: right now nothing he does is right, when you have so much anger beneath the surface, nothing is right, nothing is good enough....and on some odd days you see the effort, but you are always waiting for that shoe to drop


fun: wisdom....the woman who is starting to act lovingly..killing with kindness....(sarcatically saying) yeah no wisdom from you.....yeah right....(dripping with sarcasm )


laura: inexperienced...the word makes me cringe....we are all inexperienced really, some of us are just at it a bit longer then others...we are all winging it as we go, all of us have very similar circumstances with very diff histories, ws and lives.....and when you love someone and trust them there is no preparation for betrayal especially at the magnitude of a lta.....


taking a leap of faith: more like exhausting all options at times...i believe in us...i believe in god...i do not believe that faith in someone who betrayed you should be blind....i believe that everyone fucks up and makes mistakes...granted the mistakes our ws's made are way more then just a mistake...the "mistake" is moumental at best....its what they now do that counts....is there honest remorse, is there total honesty and transparency, is there the need to make amends, is there a need to fix what is broken within them, is there love being given or is it more fear based driven acts.....no allgood, have faith in yourself, he does not get that pass from you...faith is not enough, actions will speak louder then any words at this point for all of us....

you know that saying put your money where your mouth is.....

i will shut up now...i need to cut myself off of this ramble...


(((tribe))))


ats: you're welcome..


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 9:50 PM, September 15th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

mm33...
I agree with your IC..that you are being easy on your husband...
those words..."I'm afraid he'l leave if..." I ask him something too tough, or embarassing...or make demands etc.
you deserve to have a really high quality marriage! and so does he! that doesn't happen without a lot of hard work and effort!
In my opinion..after infidelity... the only chance there is for a marriage to survive is if the WS is willing to do anything and everything to save the marriage.
And... I also believe that after infidelity... all the rules change! You give up much of your privacy....
no more private emails, no more Facebook at all! He does not need to socially network with anyone... his number one job should be trying to win you back and save his marriage.
For a long time... no going out with friends without you....the two of you need to get back on track and to reconnect...no going out with the guys....definitely no female friends! none...
like I said before..the rules have changed.
You have a right to demand all of those things on the list!
But, you need to be prepared to follow through with the consequences.
I have said this before....
the one pattern that I see on SI is when a BS is too easy on the WS.... keeps the affair a secret, does not tell the other BS about the Affair, does not make any demands on the WS... in other words goes into denial and forgives too soon...
what inevitably happens is that a few months later you read on SI that the affair never ended, or they renew contact with the affair partner or they start a new affair!
So... being gentle has the opposite effect!Instead of keeping the WS in the marriage it encourages the bad behavior to continue.
It enables the WS to continue in their toxic thinking...
A 2x4 is scary... yes, the WS could pick up and leave but, typically... it is a huge wake up call for the WS and causes them to make major changes in themselves...

So..my advice... stand strong.. demand what you need from him...and tell the BH of the OW ASAP!


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 2:18 AM, September 16th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know M3 had said something last week about us being so committed to our marriages, yet we need to be able to leave it at will. That has stuck with me too.)

That is how I find myself as well. I call it a state of being unmarried. I don’t wear a ring (H doesn’t either, but then he never did before). I simply cannot make that commitment. I asked him once what would stop him doing the same thing again (referring to MOW) and he said “nothing”. As in “absolute”. So I have no promises or assurances from him other than the bland “I will not hurt you again”. I no longer have fear; if he chooses to go, then that’s it. I had a plan of action before, so I would just resurrect it. MOW is not out of his life unless or until one of them is dead.

FWH appears committed. But he lives in the now and believes in a life of no regrets. I do not believe he regrets having the affair, he would do it again even if he could foresee the future. Like most WS, he is sorry he got found out, not sorry for the affair. I also believe he would have left if I had found out before it burnt out.

He always knew what he had to do without really being asked. But he has never gone to IC because a)he had dealt with it and it was over as far as he was concerned b)he didn’t have the time c)it would be a waste of money. But I never knew him. I never thought he could be capable of such deceit.

I am happy to be his partner. Which means I do not feel any responsibility for or duty to him. If he chooses to ignore my advice about going to the doctor or dentist or sorting a problem with his debit card (latest thing) then it is not my fault. If he gets hissy with me when he has a problem with HIS computer that I am offering to help with, then I walk out. I refuse to launder his clothes unless they are in the linen basket. I tidy up by putting his stuff in a heap and just leave it.

Just where I’m at four years out. But it might be telling that I am still here on SI. Rambling on instead of getting on.

We have our 30th anniversary on Monday. He was supposed to be down south in meetings, I told him it was fine, he should go. He's cancelled them. I can see that my card and present to him will be the portrait of a marriage doc I have written. There is nothing to celebrate in a marriage that has been a lie. He effectively D’d me when he chose her over me. He killed out marriage at that moment. I have told him I don’t want to acknowledge the day. We’ll see.

[This message edited by UKgirl at 3:20 AM, September 16th (Thursday)]


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3328 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
alexa071
♂ Member
Member # 28881
Default  Posted: 4:43 AM, September 16th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

M3,

I do like your list as it stands and I can't say I have anything further to contribute. I do have some insight into this, though, as your H sounds like he acts very similar to my WW.

He does all the easy things. Things that don't have to do with the A. Things that don't require a lot of commitment from him and longevity in that commitment. He KNOWS what you want him to do... he just chooses to ignore your needs.

I've seen my WW and I in a pattern and maybe you have too. It is a pattern of me asking more of my WW, her doing just enough to make me happy again and when I'm happy (enough) she reverts back to how it was before.

I've realized after going through this cycle enough that there is no way I can MAKE her do the things I need her to do. I can plead, demand, write lists, inspire and implore but if she isn't willing to do it she just won't.

I've come to the realization that it is my responsibility to make her aware of what I need (this is the purpose of your list I think) and that is the extent of my control over the matter. After that all I can control is that I have to be strong enough to make the tough decisions.

If WW KNOWS what I need and CHOOSES not to address my needs then I will ultimately have to be ready to file for D.

Don't get me wrong... I'm scared as hell to D, I don't want to D and I've tried everything in my power not to D. Unfortunately, I realize that D is the last thing I control. It is the only way to ensure that my needs are met. Either WW meets them or I will D and find someone else who can meet them.

I'm not trying to sound like I know it all and I'm sure you are very well aware of this. I just thought I would share the revelation I came to recently.

Are there any needs on your list that your H ISN'T already aware of?

Do you think that your list will be successful in motivating him or is it just a means of notification?

ETA: I'm sure there is a boatload of information I'm missing as I'm new around here and there isn't any information in your profile. If I'm way off base feel free to tell me. Also, if this has all been covered feel free to ignore me.

[This message edited by alexa071 at 4:50 AM, September 16th (Thursday)]


Me: BH (32)
Her: XWW/SA/Borderline PD (Betrayer47) (32)
OC: (4)

Posts: 1042 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: MN
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 5:30 AM, September 16th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I turned 50 today, not really where I thought my life would be at this point.

FWW and I were talking late last night. She explained how in light of what she has learned in IC and MC she is re-evaluating her whole life. Looking at past events and trying to decide if her response was because she was justifiably upset, or just her behavior expressing itself. She says she looks back and does not know what to believe. I told her that I understand the feeling.

TMI Warning...

We had sex last night,, the first time in weeks. It was not very loving, at her urging it was aggressive, I will not say violent, but she wanted to be slapped, to have my hand on her throat (something she has NEVER tolerated). I used to love sex when we had it. It was exciting, relaxing, I felt connected and loved. I thought we were great together. Now after each occurence I am trying to figure out "what did it mean?" Was it out of a sense of duty? Was she aroused and want it? Does she feel any connection? Was it a chore for her? When she paused or seemed to drift is it because something we did triggered her? Can she tell when I trigger?

sigh...

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 5:31 AM, September 16th (Thursday)]


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 5:45 AM, September 16th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey M3... Let me give you my point of view.... To me, your list is all about "making" him do this and that... "controlling" him.. I think this is bad in a marriage. See, he is going to have to make up his own mind. I think you need to help him understand that these are healthy choices in life... and postive!

Can you think about taking care of yourself verses "forcing" him to do things? What I think I read you doing in this list is setting your own boundaries... I think I read you saying... look pal, I am giving you a second chance... But my rules of the kind of man I want to marry is different then before... My boundaries this time are final.

My own boundaries and I beleive they will keep us both happy and mentally healthy....
1) I will not be married to a man that needs to have any personal relationship with another woman… What that means is any lengthy conversation, texting, writing, hidden secrets, flirting, helping solve problems… (and I pledge to do the same)
2) I will only be married to a man where someone wants me in a physical way a few times a week if physically capable… (and I pledge to do the same)
3) I will only be married to a man willing to know he needs third party help and wanting to help me using a third party with help (and I pledge to do the same)
4) I will only be married to a man who values good health. (and I pledge to do the same)
5) I will only be married to a man who can feel safe enough with me enough to allow me to have complete and all access to all aspects of his life.. Monetary, social network sites, bill details.. (and I pledge to do the same)

If you cannot agree to my new boundaries I have set for myself.. Then let me know now so I can file for divorce and find a partner willing to do the things that keep me mentally happy... What you are doing is a very hard conversation to have... good luck with it and stay strong!

AST... Friends? of course your wife, partner of years and years is your best friend. You live togather, you share, you have kids, partner in financial, on and on.. This makes a friendship... Are you in the mature love? NO. Why? because your wife must not feel safe enought to tell you whatever she feels... it might be because you react in such a way that scares her. She doesn't feel safe.

My wife and I re-commited. I told her no matter what she would ever tell me, I would be her partner in life, if she wanted that. She is safe. I will not leave her no matter what dark details of her past life are exposed. Complete pardon. If she needs to leave me, I will support that too. My wife completely understands my boundaries today as in M3 post..

Tell her you now realize you are her best friend and have been for a long time. True, many things in the past were untold, unsaid... but that can change now. And ast.. you must not have enough brain power to control yourself when something "big" is revealed... But remember, keep your boundaries... as long as she is keeping good boundaries... and happy B'day!!!! You and I are the very close in age...

Hey nofun... That stuff works...

Me, I am doing well. I am moving into a new part of healing and won't be around so much... My 2 year was 9/9 and I made a promise to myself to try and not focus on the past so much... which includes visiting and adding input her at SI...

As I have said, SI has been very important toward my healing, use it wisely... Peace out!

[This message edited by trynhard at 5:50 AM, September 16th (Thursday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 5:49 AM, September 16th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Happy Birthday Ats!!!!

Ok - I think your W is doing well! She initiated sex (again) and from what you've told me - the sex was not really an important component of her A - she did it with OM as a chore. So, isn't it great that she initiated with you? And, it otherwise sounds like she's doing a lot of soul searching - that's great too!
Try not to sweat the number today - you have a lot going on for you & a lot of years ahead of you. So, life didn't turn out the way you wanted - doesn't mean you don't have reason to be proud of the things you have accomplished & you certainly have things to look forward to.
Hope you have a big night out planned out for tonight!

UKGirl:

But he lives in the now and believes in a life of no regrets

My H too. And, damn, a lot of what you said resonates with me.


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 6:28 AM, September 16th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've realized after going through this cycle enough that there is no way I can MAKE her do the things I need her to do. I can plead, demand, write lists, inspire and implore but if she isn't willing to do it she just won't.

I've come to the realization that it is my responsibility to make her aware of what I need (this is the purpose of your list I think) and that is the extent of my control over the matter. After that all I can control is that I have to be strong enough to make the tough decisions.

If WW KNOWS what I need and CHOOSES not to address my needs then I will ultimately have to be ready to file for D.

Alex,
Thank you. These are very smart things to say and especially helpful.

To answer your question about whether he knows what I need or not:

I think my husband is surprisingly clueless. Ove the course of a number of converstations with my old IC, my new IC (I switched recently. My old IC specializes in mood disorders in pregnancy. Since I'm done having kids, I moved to someone who specializes in bipolar disorder) and even one conversation with his IC.

So, yes, this is where the list comes from. My new IC and I figure either WH wants a D and just can't stand the thought of being the "bad guy" or he is mostly clueless about what to do. And the latter is rather likely. For example: when we saw his IC -- he went an hour before me because his IC didn't even know (after 2 years of seeing the guy) that he was having an A. And then when I got there, his IC said that A's are wrong but in the grand scheme of A's this wasn't a big deal. Can you imagine how WH characterized it? I said -- Did he tell you he encouraged this woman and I to become friends? our kids are best friends? we vacation with them? Our nannies are sisters? This relationship has been going on for 20 years? etc.

See, I honestly think WH has the friends with the family thing and the A thing so compartmentalized from each other...

After Dday, he kept trying to recreate the A with me when we had sex. It was pretty sick. He started trying to give me money after we had sex -- right there on the nightstand he'd give me a couple of hundred dollars (OW's BH keeps a tight rein on her spending and their $) Once we were getting in the shower and he said "is this one of my benefits, friend?" I went ballistic about NOT being his friend. I'm his WIFE. Ugh. He even slipped up once while complimenting me and said I had OW's color eyes instead of mine. That's how far in his fog he was.

I also know that my WH is full of FEAR. A lot of this is intimacy avoidance on his part. The questions I'm going to ask him are not questions about his relationship with OW or sex, etc. They're questions designed to force some intimacy.

But he said something very telling on Dday -- that I am so wonderful and our life is so wonderful that he's always waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Essentially, he was EXTREMELY abused and due to his FOO issues he has a very warped internal dialoge. To him, somehow he was convinced it would never work out because he's fundamentally unloveable so he decided (a) not to invest too much into the M and (b) screw it up on purpose because somehow that wouldn't hurt as bad as if he tried his best and it didn't work.

I also suspect there is a lot of infidelity in his family. He was SHOCKED that D would even be a consideration over "just this". His Mom flat out told me once he would eventually cheat on me. His cousin "traded up" etc.

I think it's possible I understand him better than he understands himself. I sort of expect him to have some huge revelation about himself like 3 years from now and tell him "yeah, I knew that about you 7 years ago."

All 3 IC's say he's got the emotional IQ of a 3 year old. This can happen with people who've been majorly abused. They just shut down and stop developing and blame themselves ...

Sooo this is why I continue to try so hard. I have KISA syndrome :) I'm TRYING to figure out where the line is. I can feel I'm getting close to it. There is a fine line between PRIDE in the 7 deadly sins biblical sense and just having no self respect. And I'm walking it.

Weirdly enough, I'm doing this for him. I used to tell him that if I had a time machine, I would go back and save him from that horrible childhood. As it turns out, I don't need a time machine, because he's still trapped in it. He was and to some extent still is using everything and anything he can to escape it -- expensive toys, drugs, heavy drinking, affairs, other thrill seeking like open ocean sailing in gale force winds. He still hasn't realized that the only way to escape it is to face it dead on.

Just like dealing with your spouse's A. You see, in some ways, this gave me a glimpse I never had of his pain. And it's truly horrible. It knocked me to my knees. I cried 4 or 6 hours a day, day after day, for 4 1/2 months. I had no idea a human being could hurt so much.

So, that's some background.

But here's the thing: I'm to the point now where I think "yes, we all know you weren't loved enough but seriously, get over it and stop screwing up your life; and more importantly, MINE"

No, I can't make him do these things. No, I don't think in the long run my M will work out if he doesn't. Yes, my kids and I will still thrive without him.

Alex, I am honestly over his A. It's just that his behavior indicates that he is NOT. He's still seeking that validation, half assing the M etc.

He's like that John Mayer song "half of my heart" Especially the part that says

Half of my heart is a shotgun wedding to a Bride with a paper ring . . . and half of my heart is the part of me that never truly loved anything.

We got married when our oldest DS was 6 months old. (I got pregnant with him when we'd been dating only 8 months. My D from my XH had only been final 18 days when I found out I was pregnant. Crazy.)


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 6:34 AM, September 16th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Do you think that your list will be successful in motivating him or is it just a means of notification?

i didn't answer this. I think he is motivated. Something changed after his last IC session. Suddenly, he asks me every day what he can do and tells me every day that I'm good to him and that he loves me and someday he's going to find a way to show it so that I believe him when he says it.

So, notifcation I guess.

Miracle -- I also didn't answer about my new singature. That is literally what my Dad would say -- I'd call and say "Dad, I need some advice." and he would say "Punt!" It's a football reference. In football, you get 4 tries (downs) to go 10 yards. Most of the time, when a team gets to the 4th try, they kick the ball as far as they can (Punt). It usually means the other team is going to recover the ball and their turn (possession) will be over, but it also moves the ball farther away from their end zone so the other team will have to travel farther to get a touchdown. It buys you more time and extra room when it looks like you're going to lose the ball to the other team anyway -- but *sometimes* you recover the ball yourself and make unusually great progress.


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
alexa071
♂ Member
Member # 28881
Default  Posted: 6:43 AM, September 16th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He started trying to give me money after we had sex -- right there on the nightstand he'd give me a couple of hundred dollars (OW's BH keeps a tight rein on her spending and their $) Once we were getting in the shower and he said "is this one of my benefits, friend?"

Wow, just... wow. That IS some serious fog. You must have an incredible ability to restrain yourself. I see knees meeting testicles in the above situations.

He's still seeking that validation, half assing the M etc.

Sounds familiar. Let me know if he figures out how to resolve these problems... I'd love to let my WW know.

The only thing I can add is to let him KNOW that you realize that you cannot make him do these. Tell him that these are your needs and you will not be addressing them again. He is free to either meet your needs or choose not to. Maybe it will make him feel empowered instead of dominated.

I hope your H's new found motivation sticks. Longevity in motivation has been our biggest obstacle.


Me: BH (32)
Her: XWW/SA/Borderline PD (Betrayer47) (32)
OC: (4)

Posts: 1042 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: MN
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 6:53 AM, September 16th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ATS --

HAPPY BIRTHDAY

Don't overanalyze sex. At least licit sex, LOL.

I think your total analysis should be (1) she initated it (good) (2) She asked for something specific she wanted (good)

Who knows why she wanted it that way. If you want, ask her. TMI but I used to ask my XH to "rape" me sometimes. I've never actually been raped, I wasn't re-creating some abuse, I just liked physically fighting with him and it really turned me on to be overpowered once he finally "won" Almost like sexual wrestling match. I think part of what it highlighted for me too was that he was a very large man, (6'2", 285) which I really liked about him physically. I mean, he had 8 inches and 150 pounds on me. Also, we'd met when we were 14 and he was this scrawny little class clown -- so it kind of temporarily took away the kid part of our relationship -- because I'm sure it's not easy to imagine that sometimes we were just physically older versions of our goofy skateboarding, going to the movies and playing video games kid selves.


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 7:06 AM, September 16th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tryn -- thanks SOOO much!

I agree with the problem about being controlling. I just couldn't put my finger on it until you said it. THAT is the reason I have a problem with this list -- not just fear. I don't want to be the relationship police. He needs to make his own choices.

This list IS for me, mostly. They're my boundaries, plus some suggestions.

Perhaps my "list" should be something more like this, and not written -- more of a conversation.

You asked what you can do for me. You could un-friend XHSGF on FB. I have learned that I cannot be married to a man who feels a need to have a close personal friendship with another woman, and because you sent her thousands of text messages last year, having her on your FB makes me feel like you just can't bring yourself to fully commit to our M.

You could also see your IC more often. I see beneficial changes in you and your attitude and mood every time you see him, and when you're happier, I'm happier.

You could also answer a few questions I have for you.


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 8:38 AM, September 16th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(1) NC with any former romantic interest or sexual partner.
(2) You must see your IC biweekly for 6 months, followed by us attending MC biweekly for 6 months.
(3) You must answer a few specific questions I want to ask you honestly and as completely as possible.
(4) You must make steady progress towards getting yourself into absolutely fantastic physical shape. I would expect you could be in great shape within 3 years.
(5) Transparency. I no longer want access to all your stuff - but I do expect to be told immediately of any NC violations by another party.

Sorry I'm a little late chiming in but you've gotten some great feedback from everyone that it didn't seem necessary.
However , I do have a few ideas or comments that I wanted to share.
First, why not ask your H to sit down with you and together make a list of those things you both need to have in order for your R to move forward. This way, he can feel his needs are important to you too and he might be more inclined to listen and hopefully respond to yours.
I don't know if you've ever read The Five Love Languages but there is some very good advice and insight in that book. I actually purchased the "men's edition" because I felt my H would relate better to that.
Now, having said this, I want you to be prepared to be disappointed. This may not be the case at all but I will give you my experience.
I'd like to say first though that if your H lists needs that seem assinine or absurd, try not to react negatively but listen with compassion and respond reassuringly.
When my H and I did this exercise his list was so absurd I truly thought WTF is he talking about. How will these things make our relationship stronger. It does however help to see the way your H thinks and points out another really important message. If your H is like mine (and I'm not saying he is) his list will indicate a clear and definite message that he is "clueless" in terms of emotionally connecting with someone.
For example, my H's list for helping our R to move forward included cooking him gourmet meals, doing his laundry, and keeping the house neat and clean. WTF???
What I had hoped to hear was that he wanted more one-on-one time, doing things together, listening to each other's dreams and fears and all those things that deepen a bond between two people. I wanted to hear that he wanted a deeper emotional connection with me but to hear that he basically wanted me to provide "services" well let's just say that it took a lot of self control not to tell him to go fuck himself.

But - and this is a big but - how could I criticize him - he was speaking honestly and you know what, I don't think he understands the concept of emotional connection. I think for those of us married to S's who are severely damaged, those with serious FOO issues, we have them at a deficit. Perhaps they have never, ever bonded with anyone on an emotional level and we are trying at this stage to teach a concept to them that may be so foreign that it will take a great deal of IC'ing before they can even begin to understand what it is we need in order to be "friends" with out S's.
There is another book I read years ago called Emotional Intelligence that I probably should pick up and read again but since you mentioned that you think your H has the "emotional IQ of a 3 year old" maybe it would be a good idea to check this book out.
I sometimes wonder if it's even possible for our S's to give us what we need when they have such deep-seated issues. No, it's not fair but it may be very realistic.
Now, having said all of this, there are things on your list that absolutely must be made clear and of course the first is NC whatsoever. That facebook friend MUST go!! That for me would be a deal breaker.
As to the IC, although a very necessary action, has to come from him. Like you said, he was going for 2 years and yet his IC never even knew that he was involved in an A. I love what you wrote as an alternative, that you like the changes you are seeing in him. It puts a very positive spin on it and takes out the feeling of it being controlling.
Also, the weight issue. I like what Miracle said, to focus on this as being about his health - shows concern for his well-being.
As to answering your questions honestly, well, we can ask for that but there will never be a guarantee will there???
And as for the transparency piece, again, without some means of checking up periodically how can you be sure. It's a wonderful thing when they come to us and tell us about a contact made but how can we ever be sure they are telling us about everything.
I understand completely not wanting to "police" your H but I'm sure you know that we can never know what secrets our S's are keeping from us. I agree with you and UKG too, I refuse to live like that and like many of us on here are saying, should they get caught in an inappropriate relationship again - it's done, over and there are no more chances. As long as that is made clear, the ball is in their court. We just need to be financially and emotionally prepared to follow through.

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 8:48 AM, September 16th (Thursday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 9:23 AM, September 16th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We had sex last night,, the first time in weeks. It was not very loving, at her urging it was aggressive, I will not say violent, but she wanted to be slapped, to have my hand on her throat (something she has NEVER tolerated). I used to love sex when we had it. It was exciting, relaxing, I felt connected and loved.

Well first, let me wish you a very Happy Birthday ATS. I do hope you and your W did something special (other than the above ) to celebrate this big occasion.
I did want to ask though, and if it's too personal well just ignore my question, was the "aggressive" sex something you enjoyed too or was it the reason you didn't feel "connected and loved."
Were you looking for another, more tender encounter or was this as exciting for you as it was for your W? Ok, enough of the personal questions but your comment about not feeling connected made me wonder.
I also wanted to comment on the "friends" discussion. I have been married to my H for 36 years and although it's sad to say, I've never felt that we were friends. We are partners in M and have raised three wonderful children together. We have a beautiful home, a large and loving family, and lots of friends together but my H just is not the type of person who I believe ever connected with anyone on a deeper, more personal level as I talked about in my post to M33.
Early on in my M, I tried to get my H to open up and connect with me but soon realized that he either wasn't capable or wasn't interested in this so I stopped trying. I'm not saying this is ideal and I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone give up trying, I'm just saying that personally I wasn't interested in trying to force something on my H that he showed no interest in developing. Fortunately, I had a twin sister who I shared the deepest, most satisfying "friendship" with and this made the situation with my H so much easier to accept. Whatever came up in my life where I needed emotional support and love, she was there to help me through it. Since her death, I am feeling a little lost and I've noticed I'm angrier and less loving toward my H because he is not emotionally available to me. My kids are great and to some extent do fill the void left by my sister's death. But I never believed we should lean too deeply on our children for our emotional needs. We, as parents, are supposed to be there for them emotionally, not the other way around.
So, ATS, in my long-winded way, I guess I'm asking, do you think your W will ever be capable of meeting your emotional needs and if not, do you really think this is a deal breaker or do you have someone who can fill that need for you and therefore not make D a result of your W's failings???

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 9:28 AM, September 16th (Thursday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 9:43 AM, September 16th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ats: happy birthday....you and i are just a few months apart in age and birthdays....

as for the sex: how did you feel about it???...did it bother you to be so physical with her?...

i agree with the others in forgetting about what it means....at least for now...


tryn: not having your wisdom will be missed for sure, your outlook and take have helped many....i am so happy for you and where you are in your life....you are proof positive that there is not only life after something like this but happiness....so i hope you breeze in now and then to let others know that is indeed possible...


((((tribe))))


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
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