You said you are in IC, which is good. They do say it takes 3-5 years for healing, and you are probably still healing.
Although I'm having such trouble now, I have gone through infidelity with my first xWH 22 years ago. Circumstances were different in that xWH left almost immediately, so I didn't suffer from false R, gaslighting, TT, lying, matter of fact, xWH didn't tell me ANYTHING at all, not even WHY he left.
What I do remember that the few years, you survive and try to adjust to the new reality. About the third year out, I think a new reality hits us. We survived the initial trauma, BUT it does take its toll. I became depressed in the third year and started having anxiety and panic attacks. I didn't take any AD's initially, but started to take them during the third year out.
You have survived the first stages. Now you are facing the reality of how the M is RIGHT now. This is what your FWH needs to understand. Yes you've survived, but the M can still be improved and YES even "good" marriages that were not even touched by an A, need work, M is work.
You have every right to be feeling doubtful and down. You have put a lot of effort these past 3 years. You were running on adreniline for so long fighting for your life. MC would be a good idea to keep you on the right track.
we went to MC and all my therapists believe him. They believe he is so afraid of this OW.
i am not so sure i would believe him, while i believe that he has a very real fear of exposure, once the exposure was done, anymore contact to me would seem futile....although saving you from hearing all you would hear from this woman can def be a motive....
the question though is ....do you believe him?..because that really is all that matters...this woman, especially if she was actually blackmailing him is obviously got some serious issues, and has no compunction to do whatever she needs for her own gain,...she is a "paid" escort, and a blackmailer....not exactly someone who values honesty, kwim...
and what a truly lousy way to find out...
i see he is in ic, are you both in mc and especially since you do not have anyone irl to talk to i hope you have ic too...it really does help....
allgood: what exactly are you afraid of with retrovaille?..are you afraid of an ulitmate rejection from him?...of trusting him with all you feel?...i can certainly understand, especially since he is not trusting you with all of him....but i have to tell you i think even if your worst fears come to reality and he rejects your feelings, words, emotions or ???......it cannot be worse then living with so many what ifs.....because then you would know once and for all where you stand...but i also understand that you may not be ready to deal with all those reprucussions either...kind of a rock and a hard place....mostly because you are not ready to end the marriage yet if it comes down to that...but when you are ready to do what you need to even if that means ending the marriage, i hope you at least try it...give it your true all, so that you can end it with a very clear head....with little regret....
same for you fun....
so he doesn't want to go to mc...tell him...too bad...he carried on for x amount a time, affair time, drinking time,... there is no time limit on how long it takes...progress is being made and that is all that should matter to him...so tell him to shut up, because speaking his displeasure at getting help only sets you back a bit further making the distance to moving on that much farther....so suck it up and shut up...unless of course you are asking a question...then shutting up is not a good thing...
but njgal...there needs to be a point in time for you to let it go..for your own sake, i think you need to begin the process of letting it go....let him know that you still have triggers, bad days and are thinking about it, but to keep asking the same questions....you are torturing yourself far more then you are torturing him....
when he answers, do you feel better, or do you find more questions?...are the answers always the same, meaning the story doesn't change?....
moving on is a good thing for all concerned...it means you no longer live in this misery....you so deserve to happy, you are a really good woman who deserves to be happy....and it really is there for the taking....i do pray for you to find that sense of peace....
But, I have this lingering sadness and uncertainty about R and that's what I think I want to verify.
what is really stopping you....and what is it you are looking to verify?....you keep replaying the past, you will stay in the past...there comes a point in time that you need to live with the present for the future....the past cannot be changed, the present is ever changing....the past is there, there is nothing we can do about it, there is no going back in time.....we learn from the past but we need to live in the present with hope for the future....
laura: let him know that you need as detailed a timeline as he could come up with...get him calendars, event dates, anything that will spark memories....then let him be while pieces it together....but you need to keep in mind that it is sometimes impossible to remember every detail...the most important things that you need to know, you need to outline to him what they are....and come up with very specific questions...asking him what they talked about is a generality...and he may be able to give you gists of convos...but actual convos may be out of reach...
do not read it in piecemeal, another words, do not read it until he is done...then you read it at your pace....stopping when you need to and then picking it up again when you are ready to process more of it....
laura and strong:
not having an accurate or even remotely honest timeline was yet another one of my dealbreakers ....pfm has broken so many.....
so this will be something that you will need to decide whether it is a dealbreaker or just something to hinder reconcilliation....and only you can decide this one, what you can and cannot live with knowing or not knowing...
i already knew that if i didn't know it all, we were done....and again that is what is right for me, not necessarily right for you...
Having fun I hope.
NJGal: I don't know if there is anything that your H could really say about the A itself- as far as facts, a timeline, etc. that would really help you answer your question. I think it's the kind of question that will plague a relationship regardless, or at least, I don't think if your H answered any more facts about what happened during the A it would help.
To stay with my H, to me, means to accept a relationship with limitations. I am reserving the right to reverse this judgment. I hope I am wrong, but that is the way I see it and there is nothing I have seen on SI that makes me think I am wrong.
Innocence lost. Trust lost. Those that successfully reconcile regain the trust, accept, love, etc. but you will never be able to get back that feeling you had when you 1st fell in love with your spouse, or the way you felt about your spouse prior to DDay. You can build a better marriage and all, but I think it's only natural to say "hey, maybe I would've been better off if I..."
Maybe you should remind yourself of why you decided to reconcile and stay with it for so long. And, remember, the grass only looks greener, there are no perfect solutions here.
Miracle: as for Retro. (Now, I know if I mention it often enough Tryn will not be able to resist and will come out of his self-imposed respite from SI. Lol.) I am not comfortable discussing my feelings. I can do it with you guys because the same level of rawness and sharing is exchanged, so I feel comfortable. I have no interest in doing this when it won't be returned - just because it will make me feel self-conscious and then I will babble and make no sense, etc. Also, right now, if I was to have a candid conversation with my H about how I feel with him, it wouldn't be very good, because I don't have a lot of nice things to say. Anyway, my H knows where I am at.
After I had a meltdown on Friday, WH is all about "I luv u" statements, staying in touch by phone and physical touch. It's his reaction to my actions (and a major way OW manipulated WH's actions to her benefit), so he gets no points for it. I hate the "if you freak out, I will temporarily step up my game in the ways that you've indicated are driving you away while ignoring all the other stuff you've told me you need but you haven't pitched a fit about." He could score major points by being proactive about anything A-related but chooses to continue to ignore all the not-holding-a-knife-to-my-throat stuff (metaphorically speaking) and instead play The Good Husband hoping I'll forget about the last two years.
You know when you were in school and you'd mark each day off as spring arrived, the days got longer and warmer, and you could almost taste the freedom of summer? That's what I'm feeling right now with my M. I agreed to three months of WH controlling our M before I re-evaluated. We're at more than five weeks out and every night before I go to sleep I check off another box, another day wasted as WH does nothing to work through his problems or deal with the fall-out from his actions, does nothing to try to understand me, does nothing to try to give me even the few things I've told him I need. I hope that changes, but I fear it won't.
And today I'm okay with that.
Peace out, tribe. I've got laundry calling.
I read your profile and what your MC has suggested about 3 months of letting WH do work. Does the MC mean that you should not still let WH know what you need, or encourage him when he is doing something right? WH just may think all is ok if you are not engaging with him, or perhaps I am misinterpreting what your IC wants?
Allgood, it has been very quiet in here this whole week. I think I understand what you are saying about letting out your feelings. I have had that problem when I was extremely agitated, and sounded like I was "speaking in tongues" and just jibberish was coming out. Then I am even more frustrated than before.
But, I was able to let out some anger to WH last night. I was so afraid to let go, but I was able to control what I was saying and stick to the point and not let WH talk me in circles and and get to my emotions. Mainly because I didn't care.
I didn't do this to "help WH see the light", but to stick up for myself. WH tried a few times to "bully" me, but I wouldn't allow it, I kept at it. I took all the points he was trying to feed me for this past year and shot it down with arguments from his religion. I was quoting it. I felt like I was in a HS debate and took each irrational thing he said and turned it on him with citations from his religion and kept telling him that HE WAS WRONG IN HIS CULTURE AND RELIGION. He said "it's between me and God" and I told him it was not, it was between me and him and if he couldn't do it right, then he should NOT have two wives, and I cannot and will not tolerate the situation. I told him his actions showed me his choice, and that he must do right by me (in terms of letting me go)
I felt empowered. I hung up on him and the bully called me back.
I felt like I validated myself! I stood up to the bully and it worked. WH knows it too.
I allowed myself to be angry and it did not consume me. Anger can be like fire, it can be destructive and all consuming, but it can also be used as a tool if contained and can make us move.
It's so hard to find a balance. It's so hard not to let the anger grow and spill out and take it out on the kids or people who don't deserve it.
Balance is the key I seek. Some harmony within myself. Only I can do it, and I can not look to WH to give it to me.
BTW, welcome to LTA Petunia. There are so many wonderful wise people here who have literally saved my life this past year.
Love to everyone.
Ats, check in, let us know how you are doing.
. I agreed to three months of WH controlling our M before I re-evaluated.
this is jumping out like a man on fire to me....he can only control himself, as you can only control yourself and for your marriage, it takes 2.....giving him the power to me is a mistake, giving him rope is genius.....
i hope you understand the difference between the 2...giving him control means you do things his way, giving him rope only means you are allowing him to try...whether or not he succeeds will be up to both of you...him for his efforts or lack thereof and you for accepting or not.....
but this does not mean that you sit by idly and wait...no, no and no...you need to voice what you need, you need to voice what you consider dealbreakers, you need to voice the list he needs to tend to...
he cannot succeed without the knowledge of what you require...its like going to school and the teacher says next week there will be test, its a surprise as to the content...it may or may not be something that will or was covered in class....fail and you flunk the class.....
its what he does with the knowledge that gives him control of his own actions...and either he will use the rope to climb out of a very steep hole, or it will become his noose....
tell him what you need, require, dealbreakers and desires and even dreams...then let him do or not do...
the ultimate control though is yours....
allgood: i will back off tryn's retro plea...for now anyways...
honest: good for you speaking up, its about time...i hope this becomes new habit for you....
and yes it is pretty quiet in here lately, some peeps are also absent lately...i hope it means good things...
I had been the only one trying to make the M work and driving myself crazy trying to fix this thing that I didn't break. We would go to MC or talk ourselves and WH is so darn stubborn that we would get exactly nowhere... maybe if I or MC talked long enough and offered enough reasonable arguments (and then I followed it with a complete meltdown), WH would agree with me but nothing would happen. You know? It was time for me to stop and to put the focus back on me. It really was time. Could be rope. Could be a trust exercise. Could be just me needing to step down because this M is supposed to be a partnership and not a dictatorship.
I'm just feeling disconnected peppered by moments of pure frustration. (ARE YOU EVER GOING TO ___?!?!) Compounded by the fact that we haven't been to MC in several weeks so things are building up in me.
Also, I realized that I wrote "honest" when I was responding to "allgood." Honest, did you wonder why I called you out?
For me, the rollercoaster is at it again. I felt so empowered the other day, but the momentum seems to have died down again. It's so hard to keep it going. DS 15 is more moody than HE usually is. The anger stage is hitting him I think the same time it's hitting me. I don't want to bouncing it off each other. My older DS's seem to be avoiding me. DS 34 says they have had it with me still putting up with WH's shit. He says I'm the boy who cried wolf. Perhaps he means that I complain and cry and am not really DOING anything.
I was always self motivated. A "self starter". The person who could do everything by herself. I seem to have lost her somewhere.
Thanks for the cabana boy story. Is this place you went to with your friend sort of a Hooters in reverse? BTW. I lead a sheltered life. I have never been to a Hooters.
The "I don't remember" and "I don't know" stuff is straight out of the cheaters handbook. Sometimes I think that they are trying so hard to put all this behind them that they really do not remember. Then I think about what expert liars they are and start to believe that they are just covering up to protect themselves. After all, they are all fuckwits and fucktards.
You are right about regaining those feelings. It is hard to do. Out of the blue a few days ago my W stated that she wished she could make me proud of her. Damn. During her LTA time she was very successful at her job. Always on top of job related things. I was so very proud of her and helped and supported her in any way I could. I remember watching her get ready for a business dinner with OM#2 and some other out of town higher up people from her company. I remember being proud of how nice she looked as she was walking out the door. I remember being proud of her because she was so successful in a job that was male dominated. Of course the other people were not there at the diner. Just her and OM. Will I ever be that proud of her again? I really doubt it. Trust lost. Innocence lost. Twice!
Is mother hen worried about her absent chicks? You need to calm your yourself with a mudslide or two and thoughts of cabana boys. I calm myself with visions of soft, smooth, legs and breasts. Of course I am so old I am refering to the cooking of the legs and breasts on the grill today.
Hugs to the tribe.
Went apple picking with the kids yesterday and will go to a corn maze today with the kids. Trying to keep busy.
I am standing at the edge of a brink. I know what I must do, but I am so afraid. It's like when you want to go in the water and it's too cold. Should you plunge in and risk a heart attack or go in slowly while you acclimate yourself? I've been going in slowly, and seem to be stuck. I know once I get past the breakers (waves) it should be easier, but I'm out of shape and don't feel strong enough yet.
Taking deep breaths, deep breaths.
First, accepting the relationship with limitations... the limitations with our spouses have always been there, even before the As. But everything is different now. Can we accept the limitations plus the massive disrespect and uncaring they've showed toward us? That's my problem. I'm not sure I can do it. I could have before the A. I did, in fact. I saw his limitations and my own, and I figured out how I could change my behaviors to overcome those limitations. I just don't know if I can overcome the limitations PLUS accept the disrespect, lying, sneaking around, etc. I may not be woman enough to deal with all of it.
Second, sharing hopes/dreams/fears/etc. with WH. Ugh. I know I should. In a good relationship, where I am valued, I could do it, though with my personality it would be hard to be completely open. But with WH, who I fear sees me as providing value to him but not being necessarily valuable (does that make sense?) I cannot do it. Tried and failed. I get anxious when I think about opening up a little bit, and end up feeling like a complete jackass every time. It's an ongoing problem. WH sees that I am closed off but is unable to hear me when I open up. He gets defensive and I get angry... or he gets defensive and I check my anger and just point out that he's getting defensive. Either way, it's not productive. I am not in any condition to debate my feelings, needs, etc.
I keep telling myself that I need to see IC. I'm avoiding it. Why? Dunno. What is it going to accomplish? Just another place for me to feel sorry for myself and cry? Someone to say, yes, Nell, you were screwed over -OR- hm, it sounds like your needs are not being met, Nell. (Thank you very much; here's $100.) I don't want yet another person to hear my feelings and thoughts when they're not being heard by the only person who should hear them. You know? Maybe I need different perspectives with this one.
1. Good for you standing up to WH.
2. I think standing up to WH and getting mad took a lot of emotional energy and what you are considering as regressing, or not being as strong today, is you resting up for what you know is going to be the bigger battle.
3. Your older boys(men): With the exception of our SI buddies, most men lack the sensitivity and patience to watch a loved one go through this. Your suffering makes them uncomfortable. Your suffering makes no sense to them. (It doesn't make them right - I just think that's their perception.)
4. As far as cold pools go - I'm an inching in kind of person myself. However, you have inched in enough - now just jump in and get it over with! AND.... don't focus on the cold, focus on the nice, warm inviting towel that will be wrapped around you by a cabana boy of your choice.
Nell: I understand what you mean completely.
Petunia: Welcome. I'm sorry for your situation. I hope you find some peace & comfort here.
Dip: Always good to hear from you.
Miracle: Hope you enjoyed your weekend.
And - to everyone else: Peace out!
Edited because my laughing smiley wound up someplace it shouldn't have been. Lol.
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 2:39 PM, October 11th (Monday)]
I am back in the house and we are seeing how things go. We are both committed to making this relationship work. We have a tough row to hoe moving forward. Without the affairs, we have communication problems, personality conflicts, 20 years of bad habits. The A fallout just fuels the fire anytime it breaks out.
I do not want to think about the affairs anymore, but realize that after a year of focusing on them, it has become a habit. I am making a concerted effort to stay in the present, stay busy, and shift away from thinking about the affairs. I know enough about what she did, why she did it, where she did it, etc, and have thought long and hard about them. I do not need to think about this anymore. This is a big part of the reason I have not been on SI to offer advice, trying to establish empathy with others struggling with LTA generates too many connections.
I see that FWW is trying hard. Not like I might, but in her own way she is doing everything she can. Yes, she backslides and has bad days, who doesn’t? A mistake I made was to expect her trying and remorse to look like what I would do rather than looking for it to be a product of her and different. Not better, not worse, just different.
I thought I was over the A crap, and I am day to day. Unfortunately last night some miss-communication and hurt feelings on my part and I had a trigger. FWW handled it much better than I did; she was definitely the adult last night. We both reached out this morning, and while not "all better" we are not escalating, but defusing.
Hugs to the Tribe, and thank you to all who have been checking up on me.
I'm new to this forum. Thought I might as well officially post here. It's kind of like seeing an oncologist, I would guess. You wish you didn't have the condition, but see the need for their help.
My story is posted in brief on my profile. I am over 3 years out from d-day. Next month will be our 41st wedding anniversary.
As many of you do, I still have days of pain and struggle.
I wrestle with a lot of resentment. Never thought this would happen, that my H would have a LTA. It's hard bearing the shame.
I have personally known of NO marriage's that had LTA's. Not that they don't exist, but I am guessing they ususally aren't made public. I have no example of successful reconciliation in a case such as mine, that I can recall. I could site a well known charismatic minister that got in trouble some years back, or other public figures, but I haven't know any couples personally.
My husbands infidelity was made public.
I am creating my own example, I guess.
With the Lord's help and my H's repentance, I continue to take one day at a time.
It's a little hard to quickly pick up pace on this forum. Hope there's one more chair left in the room!
Hugs to each of you.
I have been reading so that I can become familiar with you all and your issues, so I will not be giving opinions until I have you all clear in my mind. So far, I love the support you give each other, and find myself happy to be here.
I did realize the chat was slow over the weekend, but assumed it would pick up on Monday. My weekend was full of stuff with the kids and my father in law who was in the hospital.
I know my H is very thankful that I took care of my father in law's problem completely. My H is a workaholic and has many businesses, and since my in laws are so old and he is an only child, I took over responsability for them, many years ago. In all truth, I love them and don't mind at all doing it even if it is very time consuming. He appreciates all I do very much, but I hate to feel that he feels even worse about himself when things like this come up, and I don't like to feel self conscious of something I have always naturally done. Also, it all makes me wonder what the hell my H was thinking when he had this A and risked all of this!!!!
So all in all, basically a good weekend.
how has your reconcilliation been going?
and being married 41 years is a really really long time.....how was the marriage prior?
petunia: wow kudos for trying to get to know us....that can be quite a task....try not to overwhelm yourself though, we can get chatty....and yes this week has been unusually quiet in here....i am hoping that this is not a calm before a storm..
i love that you are not letting your husbands actions come between you and your inlaws...i get the impression that they are good people..in spite of producing a cheating son....my grandparents were like this too....(my dad's parents)
ats: wow...i am not sure what to say here....while i know that this is really what you desire..to work the marriage out....i have some major hestiations for you my friend...tread lightly and keep your expectations very low for now....
you have walked this walk before and ended up hurt, so take it really really slow....and please seek out mc and ic on a VERY regular basis....at least once a week without fail....
honest: allgood has apoint...men can sometimes lose patience...and i really believe your sons the grown ones are trying to get you to "see" and then "walk the walk"....not realizing that the actually doing of it is not as easy as knowing it....and then adding to the walking is knowing that financially life will more then likely change dramatically adding additional stress....so be patient with them when they are not patient with you....and give them the distance they may need...its not easy watching some asshole hurt their mom....they are men and just want to defend you even though its by your actions.. ...kwim
allgood: what have you done for yourself lately....you are such a busy person, working full time, 4 kids....what have you done for "YOU"....i think you might need some r&r...just a bit to reconnect with yourself...or least get some much needed "me" time...
it is at the that time of the year where time flies and before you know it we will be bustling for xmas...so grab some me time...kkk
i get the impression that you are using some pre-concieved notions of what you will hear in ic and what to expect....and i can understand that...i really can...especially since there are so many ic's out there that just suck at their job or there are many ic's that need to specialize in certain areas or stay away from certain area's...like most humans...even ic's can have warped "sight"based on personal experience...so the first half of the battle is finding one suitable to what your needs are....the second half of the battle is being honest with this person when you connect....
and i could tell you that it is definitely worth the search....
my ic has helped me tremendously, she is my soft place that there for me and only me...she is honest with me, tells me how she sees it (very imporant imo to have someone who is not afraid to offer opinions and advice and not just sit back and make you find all the answers on your own)...
and here i am i will be 2 years out just before xmas i could honestly say that i feel more and more like "me" then i have since before i even found him out...i lost me somewhere and i am not only getting me back, but a really strong version of me...
now i am not saying that i got it all together yet...i still cant seem to find the motivation to clean my house, i mean really clean it...
and i don't know if this is good or not...but i don't care either..
and the irony is when i do get it done, i like the feeling of a clean house...
but the doing...
too bad we weren't rich enough for a housekeeper..
yes mama hen wants to know the all the chicks are accounted for....so chicks...check in....kkkk
Kind of a quiet weekend here. Honest, I know what you mean about the roller-coaster. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason as to why some days I'm sad, some I'm angry and some I'm numb (my personal favorite right now). WH came home yesterday morning from a trip. He was in a great mood. Must be part of his amazing ability to compartmentalize that allows him to put this crap aside and whistle through the day. Clearly he needs to give me some part of overabundant capacity he has to stow away his attention to this situation.
My BFF called last night in tears...over the weekend she told her FWH (she found out 14 mos. ago about the 3 mo. A he had had) for a D. She has been trying for the past year to keep things together but it has not been working. She was afraid to tell me as she knows how fragile my emotions are right now. She is one of two people that I have leaned heavily on throughout this nightmare. My heart is breaking for her but I can honestly say that she has tried her hardest. Her FHW is also a friend of my WH and mine...we have taken vacations together, our children are friends, etc. I love him but I understand how she needs to move on. We talked about starting a business together and moving to another town to live next door to each other in a few years. While I know that that is a pipe dream, it sure sounds enticing right about now. I'm so tired of the sadness and anxiety and when I look at those on this forum that have been doing this for years I see that there is no quick end in sight.
Nell...I can honestly say that I wouldn't have made it these past 3 mos. without the IC/MC that we have seen. She is honest and straightforward, but gently. There's no way any of us can really be objective about our sich so it helps to have someone that has some training in how to communicate, give you feedback on your relationship. Personally, I'm also glad that my WH and I see the same C for IC and MC. She gets to hear both sides of the story and for some reason when she makes a point with my WH (even one I've already said) he understands...or at least he says he understands. Having said that, the ultimate decision of whether to stay in your M or not is/will be up to you. I appreciate our C's perspective but I've known WH for almost 30 years and she's known him for 3 mos. There are times when he says the right thing, but his actions don't say the same thing.
Have to make dinner. Hugs to all.
To answer iwantamiracle's questions:
how has your reconcilliation been going?
Depends on which day you ask me.
Mostly, it has been as idealic as I could have ever hoped. By that, I mean my FWH dropped the OW and pledged committment to our M. He has been open and patient, and as far as I can tell, faithful. My outbursts have slowly lessened over time. My struggle is with living with what has happened.
and being married 41 years is a really really long time.....how was the marriage prior?
You'd be surprised, it doesn't seem that long.
We appeared to others to have a solid marriage, admired by some....
Privately, we wrestled. I was always unhappy with his attention to other women and his over friendliness. I became introverted and overweight in my unhappiness (have now shed the weight and work on fitness). But I took my marriage vows seriously. I thought my husband did, too.
It's so hard to express such deep emotions in a short, readable manner, isn't it??
AND.... I'm working on the clean house thing, too!!!
[This message edited by Lifechange at 5:23 PM, October 11th (Monday)]
[This message edited by deeppurple at 6:16 PM, October 11th (Monday)]
Miracle: I am appalled at your situation! I cannot believe the man!!! One 30 year LTA plus so many OW!!!! I thought my father was the worst because he has a mistress during twenty years! But boy, your man beats that. I'm glad you are planning to kick his ass. He certainly deserves just that, and I'm glad you are protecting your younger children from finding out. BTW, your story reminded me of Prince Charles, Diana and Camilla! He was in love with Camilla but she was married, so he married Diana.
Allgood and Nell: your stories resemble mine a lot. My H's A began with a ONS and didn't pick up as an A till 6 months later. Also, my stupid H thought he could keep friendly with her over the phone which made the slut call me again 6 months later.
I will keep reading, but you know what? It really hurts to see how we all suffer. WTF???