WH cannot be talked down when he's "making his point." He learned from the master how to just repeat himself loudly until the other person backs down. In his family, the loudest wins. Period. The only way to deal with him is to let himself run down and then pick back up where you left off. (Think toddlers.)
this is eerily like pfm...his whole family in fact...it is one of the things that drives me insane...since d-day pfm has backed off some from pulling this shit, mostly because i won't tolerate anymore, i would rather he leave then become that man again....i see only traces of that man here and there...for the most part he backs off when he sees i am starting to lose it, i just wish i didn't have to get to that point....one of these days though, i can feel it coming, i gots a feeling that it won't take me losing it, i might just start out asking him to leave immediately when i see "him"....he is part of the monstrous man that is never welcome in this house again....there are many facets to this monster man...this being one of them....i put up with an enormous amount of shit before d-day....then d-day happened and i was liberated permanently....and it is so freeing....i am a strong woman and he is no match for me.....never was, i was just more compromising, was being the operative word....and TODDLER is a perfect word...it is so much like a temper tantrum.....the biggest issue with my toddler is that when i walk away he stupidly follows me, still speaking or should i say talking at me......yup the day gets close every time he shows his face...
strong: why does your husband want your kids to know????....this is a lose lose sich for him....this would worry me too....i wonder what his true agenda is?....
She is also going to tell him in no uncertain terms that unless he makes some significant changes he will not be able to meet MY emotional needs which may results in a S/D
this is key for you.....and i do mean key...if he does not meet your needs, he may no longer be that path of least regret....
we all have needs....if they are not met by the person that needs to meet them, we can compensate, but at what cost...and what will that compensation end up being....this can turn into a huge slippery slope if an opportunity presents itself...not to mention the resentment that will build up because of the initial attempt on the bs part to reconcicle, kind of like being slapped and then getting sucker punched....
ats: i checked out those lyrics....racy is an understatement....but then i realized that it has nothing to do with a real woman....sounds like stepford wife wannabe...only on the whore side...
fnf and njgal: yay a g2g...i am jealous...and really happy for you both, you are both amazing women and you are both kind of in the same place.....maybe you guys should include the "f"ws's on the next one....double date....it might do each of them good to see that your progress is right where it is supposed to be....which in turn will help them have more patience with the 2 of you...(yes i live in a idealist world now and then)
ats: it is good to hear from you, and to hear that progrsse is steady if nothing else...steady is really really good
honest: when you love deeply, it doesn't just go away because you want it too....it has to die, and sometimes it needs a little help in that...a little mercy killing so to speak....this is a slow torturous death that you have so far sentence it to....there are still steps that you can take to ease that transition....hospice for marriages headed towards divorce....and like everything else, there are steps to take...the first steps for you would be acceptance of what is, what it wasn't, what it will never be and the second part of this step is to get mad....really really mad about what it is, what it wasn't and what it will never be.....
you know how when someone is literally dying, its torture, as much as you dont want to see them die, you want them to have peace, for the pain to go away....
how is that list????
( i know i am a pest )
manchild tell dd, hey sis thats what you will do marry your father....
dd tells me if that happens i am to kill him
pfm tells her that he is a good guy and has lots of good qualities....
after shoving my tongue back into my mouth because my jaw was hanging open...i tell him
"do you really want her to marry "you"....
he says, yes the new me....
me: but the new you is still a fucking liar....
not to mention that he is a major league idiot....as inept as they come....
if he were truly aware, he would have said, no i want better for her, i am still a work in progress....
so his ego is still huge...i wonder who is feeding it for him?????
he really believes he is a good guy....and that all the past is gone and done...never mind that he still can't tell the truth about anything, past or present...cannot own his shit, is a shitty father and even worse husband....and this is who he wants for his dd...
o.k. got it out,i feel better, sort of....
I also have a kid story, that is sad and funny.
This morning DS 15 and I saw a praying mantis on the window. At dinner, I was telling DS 12 about it.
DS12: Was it big or small?
Me: it was big!
DS: So it was a female. The males are half the size. Do you know why?
DS: Well, the female cuts up the male and eats him.
[DS smiles mischieviously and knowingly at me]
SHE EATS HIM BEFORE HE CHEATS!!
OMG!! I started laughing so loud I almost choked on my food, and DS 12 was laughing too!!!
Now, since I went to Catholic school for so many years, I pray........ and....
NAH, WH is toxic and poisonous!!
SHE EATS HIM BEFORE HE CHEATS!!
i always had a soft spot for praying mantis....now i know why!!
it was a good story, gave me a smile i really needed...
The hardest thing is to NOT engage. I wouldn't even engage him while he is still angry. For your WH, I really think it would be best to tell him when he is NOT angry that you and he cannot communicate when he is yelling like that. Tell him the next time he does that, he should just say he is very angry and walk away. Tell him if he cannot do this, then you will calmly remind him that you will discuss things when he is calm and YOU will walk away.
Make sure he understands this. Do not get angry at him when you are telling him this.
Just tell him that this behavior IS NOT WORKING. You understand he gets angry, but you will not tolerate the disrespect any longer and are willing to discuss anything with him when he can do so calmly.
Next time he does this, remind him and walk away.
It is very, very hard. It will take quite a while for WH to get it.
Strong: Your WH doesn't seem to realize that he is writing a death sentence with his relationship with his kids by telling them. He needs to understand how they are going to feel about this and how heartbreaking it will be for them. The only thing I can suggest is for WH to discuss this in IC and possibly, if you can, calmly discuss it with him and ask him without blame, WHY he thinks it's a good idea. Then you can tell him WHY it's not.
I'm glad that you stood your ground and made it a dealbreaker.
I took my ring off on DDay and put it on and off for a while. On DDay 2, I took it off and no longer wear it.
I agree, I did feel naked without my ring, as if something is missing and it is a physical manifestation of the reality.
After DDay 1, and I we were in false R, I had WH buy me a new ring. Unfortunately, I only got to wear it a few months before dday 2, so I wear my birthstone ring instead, to remind me to take care of me.
Trying to catch up with and respond to some posts while I can. H has 3 evenings off and I will find my time limited.
He actually found SI the other night. I foolishly left it open. He has NO computer skills so doubt he would be able to find it again but made me wonder if I should show it to him. I've decided not to yet. I actually think it would be good for him but at present I need this "safe" place for me.
Wow - the spookiness!!!
I still have a problem with H not listening to me. I can be talking and he will be looking right at me and 2 days later he has no recollection of the conversation. So I've been calling him on it and if it's something that is important to me, I start out by saying.."are you listening to me?"
He is EXACTLY like this and I say EXACTLY "are you listening to me?" but usually also add "This is important".
My H is so selfish, all our conversation revolves around him. I guess after 28 yrs it doesn't worry me. I became very used to it.
Funny thing is I said something about this to OW2 the night I was in hospital. And it was like a light went on. She said "I hadn't realised he was like this but now that you've said it I realise all he did when he came to see me was talk about himself!!!" Dumb bitch - it took me a lot less than 8 yrs to notice!!
I'm not expecting miracles, but I do want to be treated like I matter.
Now he seems to want to listen to me. Asks me about things etc. Weird part is I have nothing to say. So then he goes back to talking about something that interests him. I don't think he's good with silence. At least he seems to be trying.
You women are sometimes hard to figure out. You all want a mature man, but then start talking about cabana boys. I guess I need to ponder this puzzle for the next few days.
Old Dip - let me explain. IMHO we old girls love our Hs - pity us!!! But to help bring light to our days we fantasise about cabana boys. Young, lithe, slim, energetic cabana boys who will see us as we were in our prime.
The thing is - we don't need the reality (unlike our WSs ) we can just be happy enjoying the fantasy.
While we continue to try to R with our Ss the cabana boys are a sweet fantasy which we can enjoy - but JUST a fantasy.
BUT if we do decide to walk - we WILL go looking for them.
For me - I'd love a mature FAITHFUL man but know I will never find one because I sincerely believe I can never trust again. I am now too damaged to be able to form a relationship with such a man.
So for me it would be cabana boys - no strings, no committment, no fear, no expectations = no hurt.
I suppose that if the day comes that I leave my scumbag, I would love to cohabit with a few BSs - have big parties and invite lots of cabana boys!!!!
i cannot make her respect him, i cannot teach him how to command respect instead of demanding it....and further i no longer want to....and i am actually happy to be free of wishing it different
My 24 yr old daughter lost much respect for H years ago because of the way he was treating me. She saw his nastiness and poor treatment of me. She actually used to say "Why don't you leave him mum - he is such a dickhead". I, of course said "Don't talk about your dad like that, he loves you and you should realise that". I think in his own twisted and sick way h does love his children. I used to feel sorry for him because they showed him so much disrespect. Now that they are adults I stay out of it. It's his problem and he has to fix it.
Silly part is I heard him on VAR tell OW1 that he didn't want to lose his FAMILY!!! Thought - but you had no time for your children, were never available to be with or listen to them, betaryed your wife for 16 yrs and now tell your whore you don't want to lose your family
Kids are very perceptive. maybe my daughter had some sixth sense about what he was up to. Who knows??? Anyway - you EARN respect, you can't demand it. After this I doubt h will ever have the respect of his children. Frankly, I don't care anymore. I care for them, but not for him.
And I'm not sorry I told them. I only told them because I was sure he was going to leave me for OW3 (from what I heard on VAR)and wanted to break the news gently and give them time to get used to the idea. I also needed them to know and understand why I had changed my will (they get my share of everything - he gets nothing) and why they are now my "guardians" (means they NOT HIM get to turn off life support if necessary) and they have power of attorney (They NOT HIM can control my bank accounts etc if the Alzheimer's gets me!!) In a way I'm glad it happened like that. I now know that his whores NEVER get to live in my house.
Before the betrayal I would truly have thought that I would want him to remarry and be happy. Now, no way!!!!
I have expended some energy being pissed off at WH's parents for creating such a broken man with their poor parenting. I used to only be pissed off at his dad (and WH still hasn't forgiven his father for the hurts he caused decades ago), but I'm also angry at his mother (for cowtowing to her husband and allowing him to treat his kids and herself like crap) but WH is not there yet. But there's a reason that all three brothers married women the exact opposite of their mother. She taught them by example some nasty stuff about male/female relationships, and they couldn't count on her to stand up for them.
Did I mention that my in-laws will be visiting us this week? I get along fine with them most of the time, although it's because I don't have the background to have it bother me when they act badly. Not sure about this time. Last time they visited it was very early after DDay #1 and I wasn't fully myself. Now I'm a much angrier person. Who is going to hide a liquor bottle in her closet again, just in case I need a snort before bed while they're here. (Laura, I know you understand!)
I look at WH and me and wonder what my Boyos are learning about adult relationships. Not good. I prefer not to spent too much time on that one. It's rather depressing.
I wish I had married my father. I went with stable (like dear old Dad) but more feelings-driven. The stability thing was temporary and the appeal of a feelings-driven person isn't there any longer.
I even wrote vows to myself! It reminds me of the importance of loving my soul, honoring my body, cherishing my heart and forsaking those things that cause harm. I'm so sweet.
[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 10:50 AM, October 19th (Tuesday)]
I have had my ring on and off over the months after day. I finally settled on wearing it until I divorce. My wedding ring represents my vows and I have kept them. It is a symbol of being true to myself and my family.
FWW had taken her wedding ring off during the affairs and got it stuck on her right hand (put it on the wrong hand because she married the wrong man, a joke I guess with OM). This seems appropriate to me, as she certainly was not keeping her vows. She did buy another band to put on her left hand when she could not get her wedding ring off. For a while, she thought that was fine, I guess she did not see the irony of her “replacing” her wedding band with another. As we progressed and R looked like a possibility, she had her wedding ring cut off, repaired, and reconditioned, along with her engagement ring. If I get to the point where I feel fully reconciled I will take mine in to be polished and reconditioned. Until then, it is looking worn with little luster, like my M.
I too worry about what impact this will all have on the kids. Not just the A’s, but the 20 years of dysfunctional marriage. FWW told her daughters about her A’s , she was surprised they were not more supportive. We have not told our boys, but there has been some yelling when DS had to hear things and I would not be surprised if one of their sisters (my stepdaughters) clued them in some. I believe that a parent having an A opens the door for the children. The split between FWW and me in parenting all these years also did not help anything. DS18 especially has a real sense of entitlement.
As for your husbands who suck at communicating feelings, empathy, and listening; this can be changed if they are motivated. I speak from experience, I am much improved from the original me that FWW married. While the A stuff is mostly over, FWW is still working with IC and reading to improve her thinking and communication. I suspect that with your WH’s as evidenced by their A’s there is more than run of the mill communication and getting in touch with feelings issues. They may have deep shame or insecurity to work through with an IC before they can be truly honest and open with you or themselves. FWW is open to IC, working at her issues and aware of them. Still, it has been a long last year.
FWIW, I looked at my timeline for the last few years, no wonder I am still feeling unsettled. Winter 2005 I moved to current town for new job, FWW stays at old town till school is out for DD and 2 DS. Summer 2005 FWW moves to town and we buy a new house. Fall 2005 FWW starts job. Winter 2006, FWW begins A with coworker. Winter 2007 FWW changes jobs, begins EA with OM2 at new job and ends A with OM1. Spring 2007, I accuse FWW of A with OM1. She and a well-meaning friend convince me I am over reacting to nothing. She tells me she is ready to leave the M and I am broken and need to be fixed. I go to 6 months of IC for anxiety and begin meds. Fall 2007 EA with OM2 becomes PA. Our M becomes roommates and asexual. I know of her travels with OM2 and constant cell/text messages, but believe they are work related and do not want to repeat “false” accusations of 2007. Sometime in 2008, she begins to return sexually explicit texts and calls from her BIL. October 5, 2009 is dday after I find inappropriate texts and emails between her and BIL and OM2. For 7 months, she withholds the truth and minimizes, blames me. For 4 months, things are getting better until she closes me out to go to a family event with BIL, an abusive relative, alcoholic mother all present. She is under huge stress at the event, does not follow-through with things we agreed to prior to her travel, and accuses me of being an abuser. She comes home and I move out for 2 weeks. The time away does give me perspective. It hurt a lot the first week, but was OK by the end of the second week. I move back in, and within 2 days we have a fight and she does not talk to me for a day because she misunderstood the meaning of things I said when we were talking. I have been back in the house for 10 days. I have two short-term locations to live I can go to in a day; I have more permanent housing available within a couple weeks notice. My friends and family irl wonder (and are disappointed) why I stay with FWW.
Hugs to the Tribe, old and new. Can anyone confirm that m334455 is OK?
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 11:09 AM, October 19th (Tuesday)]
Did it help you? I don't have much info, will never get a time line, but I wonder if I should try to write one with what I know....
I can confirm that I and the rest of the M3 klan are well.
The tribe seems to have it all under control without me.
Posting was fueling my anger, so I stopped. I call it "pulling a tryn."
I'm around though. Lurking, but not avidly.
I can't figure out whether not posting is working or not. My persistent urge to punch WH in the face has lessened. My desire to harm OW has not. I seem to be able to act and react without significant anger in my daily interactions with others though so I'll call it helpful for now.