DP - I'm so sorry about your job. I own my own company and it was so hard to stay focused. I've lost 2 accounts because of it. I would go in my office, shut the door and cry my eyes out. I looked like shit most of the time, swollen eyes, etc. I drank too much and took to many adivans. It all sucks, I feel your pain. If I wasn't the boss I'd probably be out on my ass! ((((DP)))))
I think we should try to come up with a stronger word than selfish, because it doesn't cut it.
I was thinking of trying to spend some time with my watercolor but my (perfectly lovely) MIL likes to hover and chatter... not conducive to creativity nor focus!
Ducks. My Boyo2's favorite is a rubber duck "dressed" like a pirate that I got him while in Santa Barbara this spring. I like it because it reminds me of my vacation with my BFF (I left WH at home with the Boyos)... the best time I've had all year!
everytime i see the phrase or use the phrase "line up your ducks"...i will have this visual of ducks on a leash being led into a tidal wave.....
dp: there is another saying that one door closes another opens....i hope your door to your future job opens prior to the other closing completely though.....
your rockbottom will not land you in the land of regret....your rockbottom is merely a change in your life not in your core of who you are if you can weather the storm....
allgood: i love the highlight of your weekend, as long as its not your only highlight all the time.....but it shows you take pride in your kids and you enjoy them...
Like, Miracle, the phrase "line up your ducks" kept popping in my head whenever they were mentioned. Ducks in a tidal wave on a leash!!
I needed that laugh!!
Deeppurple: I think I understand what you mean about the hypocracy of WW being "catholic" and a teacher (how ironic). My WH feels he is very religious and does all these outward gestures, but really has gone against his own religion with his actions.
Hopefully, with your job, you can use this time to see what your options are, perhaps you won't lose it at all. We have all been there where we haven't been up to stuff with other areas of our lives because of the A.
The unfairness of everything that we have to deal with the fallout and consequences of someone else's selfish actions can really get to us. I think a lot of us can deal with a "natural" disaster.....sickness, death, more easily. It is horrific, but it doesn't attack us personally or betray us to the core.
Allgood, for years and years that's all I did, watch my oldest DS's Little League games, soccer, basketball, now I go to DS 15's swimming and diving. That was my life outside of work. I was too busy going to work, taking care of the kids, and had little adult contact....
I thought I was being such a good mother. But, I'm coming to realize that life is a balance. I do need some time for myself, my interests and to make friends with people outside of the mothers of my kids friends!!!
Dip, Deep purple, Ats, (and tryn if you're there) you guys cannot be cabana boys!!! You are too intelligent and wonderful!!
Cabana boys are more like "eye candy"
We must first stop and forgive ourselves from taking blame for the A.
I rang him and told him my mother was dying and only had hours to live and would he come and be with me. He was laughing about the fact that he told me he couldn't come cause he had to help his nephew who is on dialysis. He was really with her.
I really will need to find my true inner strength to get thru this.
But they just want us to "move on", "put it behind us" "think about the future".
Well Laura, it’s 6.15pm Sat here……. Hope you are still sound asleep over there. My boys will be in the land of nod as it’s 5.15am Sunday and I don’t suppose they will read my texts until I’m ready to go to bed…..
Why don't we lose our minds and get totally selfish and meet in Paris for a one week vacation......
What am I doing this weekend? Wondering what to do for next weekend and H’s birthday……
eta - i took so long to post (reading another thread.... ), it was no longer 5.30!!
[This message edited by UKgirl at 12:14 PM, October 23rd (Saturday)]
And, yes...Honest is right..we do have to make time for ourselves and our marriages (if we are reconciling)....but, my children are my life...they really are.
And... my husband is finally appreciating and loving them the way he should have all along....
and eventhough many of you have said that 'selfish' is not a strong enough word to describe our WS behaviors and attitudes...but, in a nutshell that is exactly what my husband's biggest problem was throughout our marriage. He thought of himself and his needs first! While I thought of everyone's needs before my own!
He wanted to drink to escape his problems... he drank...regardless of whether or not I liked it or whether or not it had a negative impact on me, our family, etc.
The LTA (with another selfish, alcoholic, narcissistic female co-worker)was almost the natural next step in a very selfish life....
If it feels good and is what I want then I do it...that was his mentality.
D-day was a huge wake up call for him!
I definitely got his attention when I kicked him out of the house and refused to let him move back home! We were seperated for 6 months.
Now, I'm not going to tell all of you newbies on LTA that you must seperate from your WS in order for them to wake up but... it worked for me.
My husband needed to hit bottom before he changed.
Another thing that I believe was very important in bringing about a true change in my husband was AA...and Individual counseling.
Strongish, Laura, Nell....
You can make demands of your husbands now....
they screwed up big time.
You are forgiving a huge betrayal. You should lay down the ground rules for what they need to do to help you recover from this betrayal.
They do not run the recovery program! You do.
If you need your husband to go to individual counseling or marriage counseling or AA or SA in order to feel 'safe' in this marriage again and in order to 'trust' your spouse so that you can reconcile...well, then you have every right to DEMAND that of him!
You have a lot more power in the relationship than you realize.
Many of us have spent our entire marriages deferring to our selfish WS needs...
I know my husband always got his way... in a quiet, non confrontational way.. he got me to give in.
well, that woman is gone...
she left the minute she found out about his 5 yr LTA.
a new woman has replaced her. Someone who refuses to budge on what I need from him now!
and in my opinion... if the BS insists that the WS needs to go to IC or MC or a weekened marriage program like Retrouvaille etc. or a 12 step program for alcoholism or sex addiction etc. and the WS refuses to go....
well, then what kind of marriage is that anyway?
the WS has to be extremely motivated to save the marriage if R will work! they should be willing to do what the BS needs...
I really do compare a long term cheaters recovery to that of an alcoholic or sex addict...and many addicts think that they can recover from their addiction on their own...they don't need counseling, therapy, or a 12 step group for recovery...they can do it on their own.
But, what I have found is that people cannot do it on their own. If they try to just say they are 'cured' and they will never do it again, and they just want sweep it under the rug and move on from it and they do not back up this desire to change with any kind of professional help then often times there is no real change.I do not think that the change is genuine, lasting, solid.
Have you ever heard of a 'dry drunk'?
That's an alcoholic that stops drinking but never does any of the hard internal work on himself or herself.
They do not go to AA or counseling of any kind. They do not change internally. So, eventhough they are not drinking they remain the same in terms of their outlook on the world- oftentimes they are still extremely selfish, angry, bitter, dishonest.
I think the same is true for WS.
Stopping the affair is a start. But, there is alot of internal work that they need to do before a real change occurs.
sorry, if I'm rambling here....
there is alot of internal work that they need to do before a real change occurs
I won't cave in any longer, but I also refuse to force WH to provide what I want/need in this marriage. If I ask for it, if I say it's important to me, then I expect WH to give it to me without making me fight for it. In the past, if I needed something and WH wasn't willing to give it to me, then I'd work around him to get it anyway (support from friends when my mom had cancer, for example). I'm not willing to live that life any longer. And I'm no longer willing to stand in front of him insisting that he meet a need and take all the garbage he can heave at me until he finally gives in and throws whatever I need in my face. If WH isn't going to work with me to provide for my needs, then he's not my partner.
By the way, a lot of this is new realizations on my part, coming from the hard internal work that I've been doing. I did work hard to see my own issues and weaknesses and to make changes to be a better partner and a better person. I'm willing to work with WH. I've let go of a lot of anger and am working through the big chunk that's left. I've been more than gracious and accommodating. And I'm discovering that there is an end to my rope.
I think I need an individual counseling session with MC. I think it's time for the knowledgable third party to clue me in and give me the broader picture.
Cabana boys do not come cheap so don't sell yourself short. It takes a great mind to remember all the different types of body oil needed to keep the sun-worshipers happy!
Will check in later. Still fighting this bronchitis.
I wish I could say I was doing something interesting, but instead I:
Fed my kids, over & over again with no end in sight. (You have boys - you know what I mean. Lol).
Did laundry (x 1 million).
Dropping kids off at play dates/football games.
And - there 's nothing to eat - so a stop at the store is on the list too.
Yesterday tho - I got my hair & nails done!
ETA: I forgot you & Miracle are the only 2 gals on Long Island that aren't mani-pedi fans!
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 11:27 AM, October 24th (Sunday)]
And the injustice is killing me. Right now I don't want to be anywhere around him, but he holds all the cards. He makes so much more $$ than I could ever make, plus in a D I would lose the ability to fly stand-by to see my kids (DS 24 is in CA, DD 23 is in NY - I live in TX.) I used to being able to jump on a flight at a moment's notice but that would all go away if we D. I would be left with almost nothing after we sell the house and he would be sitting pretty. Not to mention that so many women are impressed with airline pilots, I'm sure it wouldn't take him long to find someone else. God knows he doesn't have "trust" issues now...only I do.
Sorry for the venting today Tribe. Just needed to get this off my chest. Please tell me again that these feelings will pass. It's like I don't have any control over myself from one day to the next. The emotions just fly all over the place.
Stongish and Laura28: WH's are not the only ones who can speak with their foot in their mouth. A while back FWW was talking about OM and said he was not even able to even able to get together all the times that she told him she was available. This was supposed to help me understand it was not that often, but after all of her telling me that she was only into the talking, not that into the sex, it made her sound like an initiator. The reality is that this is a part of the A story I suspect I will never really know. She says they were together once every couple of months, but from the count of what she HAS told me it seems to average out to monthly or more. Oh well, after the first dozen times or so, does it really matter?
As for selfish and self-centered WSs, this was FWW. She is changing, and I have some hope that this new behavior will become the norm.
DP, nofun, and others, I agree with the impact of jobs from the A. I am surprised this is not discussed more often. FWW did not take better (more secure) jobs that would have interfered with her A activity in the past. Now she is working for a poorly financed organization. She was fired from job where OM was board president. She still limits some job applications due to who may know what about A. for me, I was fortunate to have staff pick up my slack for 6 - 9 months. My direct supervisor was very supportive of me, but most of the "atta boy" chits I had accumulated I have used up in the last year.
FWW is not a Catholic, but does see herself as a caring and good Mother. She is only now beginning to recognize the potential impact of her A behavior on her and our kids. She had thought the only negative impacts would be to me, and who gave a shit about me? Now she sees that it opens the door for her daughters to mimic her behavior, just like she did her Mother's.
I am with njgal480 on the value of separation. While not as decisive or long as hers, my leaving the house for even a couple weeks gave me, and I believe FWW better perspective. If asked, my advice to anyone who JFO would be to get the other spouse out of the house for an indefinite period, or leave yourself. Conditions to return to begin R (if wanted) would be NC, IC for WS, sufficiently detailed timeline. I would not divorce for the first 6 months, but I would start the process. It appears that in the 2 weeks when I moved out and began D paperwork that we accomplished more in working towards R, than in any previous 3 months.
I would lose the ability to fly stand-by to see my kids (DS 24 is in CA, DD 23 is in NY - I live in TX.)
Have you asked your attorney about this? I would expect at least some temporary (few years) of him compensating you for this loss of benefit, just like health insurance through his employer if that applies.
I won't cave in any longer, but I also refuse to force WH to provide what I want/need in this marriage.
Good for you ImNellNow! In fact, you cannot force anyone to do anything (oh, maybe short term, but nothing meaningful).
Yesterday FWW either did not feel well, or was being distant after a discussion the previous night. I cannot tell, but the result was plans we had to go out for the evening ended up cancelled after she gave me the "I don't care what we do tonight, I am OK staying home" line. I think she was shocked when after we cancelled our plans for the evening I announced I was going out to see a movie and would be back in a few hours. I did not feel (much) guilt going out to have fun and leaving her home. We had plans, she was not excited to do something with me, I can entertain myself thank you very much. In fact, if she keeps making sex such a rare and delicate event, I may find I am pretty "handy" at entertaining myself that way too.
I am off from work tomorrow and Tuesday with DS15 who is off from school. FWW has to work, so DS and I will take the boat out to fish one day, and are planning to rent jet skis the other if the weather is permitting.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 4:42 PM, October 24th (Sunday)]
A day without Miracle... hmm.... somebody got herself an extra BIG cup for her mudslides or a cabana boy!
Hope you are well, Miracle.
Strongish: I must have missed something - you are not just staying in this M for convenience, are you? I don't think you were, so I am assuming you just hit the downhill on the roller coaster.
Sometimes when I feel like I am being used, like the R is not genuine for my H, I think about whether I am actually better off without him or not. For me, my life is definitely easier because we are still together, for a number of reasons. We may not wind up together in the long run, but I try not to worry about the future too much. Anyway, when I think about all the things I am gaining by staying, even if we never become fully reconciled, it makes me feel less used, or it makes me feel like I'm using him a little too & then I feel like less of a loser. (You all know I don't think I'm a loser really - but sometimes that thought crawls into my head...)
M3: I know you are not here on the weekends, but I forgot to tell you how nice your post was the other day. You have a wonderful outlook and that's just amazing that you still have such strong feelings for your H.
Ats: You sound well. Good for you going out for the evening. You sound well - that's great!
I continue to be amazed at how quickly my rage can return. Something as simple as my H not returning a text had me fly off the handle this morning. (I'm sure you can relate to the analysis -
" I don't think you ignored OW's texts. You weren't too busy at work to spend 20 min on the phone with that ..." You get the idea).
Thankfully, I realized the lunacy of my reaction after typing a 6page scathing text to my H. (Which I later deleted.)
What he got, was the extremely watered down version which was me saying that I start to compare his treatment of OW to the way I am treated (2nd class) when he doesn't return my text or doesn't initate contact during the course of his work day and this leads to me feeling like he's not really interested in me. (This is sort of a follow up to my conversation with him earlier in the week when I told him I just don't feel like he is interested in me & we are just wasting each other's time and to which he responded that he is interested & doesn't know how to show me that.)
So, I said this is what makes me think you are not interested.
So, he got on the ball today, we'll see how long this lasts.
I have to say, a few cartwheels have done wonders for my mood, now if he could manage a backflip we might be on to something.
Hugs to all.
Sorry....bad day today. DS is turning 17 in few days and I have 7 boys here for BBQ sliders and mac & cheese. At least these boys make me smile!
But this was a man that professed honor and integrity to me and our children at every opportunity. It makes me, well...
This was my H also. When DD 27 found out about his A, she wrote him a 3 page letter. She called him a hypocrite and a liar and told him how disappointed and disgusted she was with him. How sad!
I am also in the same kind of position as you. There is no way I could earn a fraction of the salary my H gets. I couldn’t earn enough to stay in this house, let alone put food on the table, run a car, take a holiday, buy clothes, etc. So what I did do, after finding a load of intimate and explicit poetry written to and about MOW, was see a lawyer to find out just what my exact situation would be if we divorced. It made me feel a little more in control and confident of my position. At my age, he would have to pay me personal maintenance. I would have a smaller but mortgage free house with a minimum of three bedrooms. I would also have half his pension pot and practically all of the savings. But that is the UK. Have you thought of seeing a lawyer for an hour or so just to find out your position? My initial consultation was free and they told me what to bring to the meeting. I was sick with the thought of divorce, but I had to have some of his cards in my hand. KWIM?
Yes the intensity of these feelings will pass. If your FWH is open and honest with you, that will keep the reconciliation moving forward. Unfortunately, my H just carried on lying and minimising. I gave up after two years. And so I still have that place called the Zone. And I sit in there every time he is away. To the point where I’m not even sure where he is.
I'm still so shocked that this man that I thought I knew so well could have so completely thrown me under the bus. Of course he denies that ("I never had any intention of leaving you.") but that's how I see it.
And my H also falls into the FWS equivalent of a “dry drunk”. He didn’t see the need for IC and only came to MC to “fix” me. He had “dealt” with it. And so he cannot show me or express to me how he has changed. How can he, if he has never confronted his issues?
Oh well, after the first dozen times or so, does it really matter?
But this was a man that professed honor and integrity to me and our children at every opportunity. It makes me, well...
DS and I will take the boat out to fish one day, and are planning to rent jet skis the other if the weather is permitting.
[This message edited by UKgirl at 10:17 AM, October 25th (Monday)]
I feel your pain. I called WH because I needed to have emergency surgery for a cancerous pregnancy (5th miscarriage) and he wouldn't come because he was getting drunk at an NCAA tournament game with OW and his BFF. Even OW was pissed at him for that one.
Anyway, it's sort of a "duh" Why WOULDN'T that level of selfishness permeate their whole lives.
The highlight of my weekend was a Wake. YEEE-Haw. Bummer weekend.
The deceased was very important to my WH. His other BFF's father. This man opened his home to all the kids in the neighborhood. WH said they fed him breakfast almost every morning (and if they weren't home, he didn't eat long story bad FOO etc.)
Anyway, funerals are hard. It's my hope that reflecting on this man's life will be good for my WH. I don't know. There were many euologies. It made me wonder what I would say about my WH if he died right now.
I will say that WH has been more appreciative lately. Many times this weekend he hugged me and thanked me for being a loving and supportive spouse. I'm happy I was able to be a comfort to him at such a hard time given how terrible the last 10 1/2 months have been for us.
I suppose it it amazing I still have such strong feelings for WH. I do think in one way the infidelity has just completely ruined the whole marriage for me. I fear my anger will never dissipate. But, I'm the adult here (seems like the only one some days) and if WH is being a good husband now then I won't put my children through a broken home.
One thing I realized just yesterday is that my WH is the only man I've ever been with who can really stand up to me. People were talking about their high school reunions at the wake (they're all older than me) and someone asked me when my 20th would be and I said about 3 years. I started thinking about what it would be like, which got me thinking about the guys I dated -- which made me realize that I've probably dated about 40 people before my WH and I had every one of them wrapped around my little finger. And only one of them (my XH) even managed to get me into bed. So crazy. Even XH didn't break my heart. This is honest to god the first time I've ever had my heart broken. So sad. Lucky too, I guess in some way.
Have a great one everyone. Guess I better spend some time thinking/reading about letting go of anger. How does a person do that?
Perhaps I will write a euology for my WH. I do think what would I say? Knowing others who love him are there, most do not know about the infidelity, what would I say and remain honest and relatively complete.
what would I say and remain honest and relatively complete.
I would say very little. I would say he will be missed.
Would I grieve? Would any of you? I feel like that's what I've been doing this past year. Grieving my husband. In a way he's dead to me -- kind of like how UK girl described "the Zone" she has.
I mean, I *hope* I would grieve, but I don't know.
I would miss him, but that's not the same thing.