Better to nip it in the bud than have a giant weed growing in your garden...
About the dogs... I'd recommend you check out Cesar Millan's stuff about dogs... I've had big dogs my whole life and I've always established with them who is the A dog, ME... Sounds like you need to do some dominance training...
The reason is she felt compelled to always talk with him. Sorta like if something funny happened at work, instead of telling me, she’d call this guy. Anyway, she has sworn over and over that she never had any sexual feelings for him and visa-versa... more like best buddies.
This is how FWW would describe both her OM, both of whom she had sex with.
What to do kind of depends on what you want. Your profile says fence-sitting, but in R now. If in R I would say confront, tell her how you feel. NC with this former OM should be a requirement to continue R. OTOH if you are ready for D, the 180 will allow you to begin (finish ?) detatching and you can start the process.
At best she is on a slippery slope, but what your post has A all over it, even if it is "just" EA at this point. So long as she is using this OM to meet her needs it allows her to avoid the harder issues in dealing with you.
Could you have her invite him over to play with the dogs?
Maybe you could have her invite him over, then tie a pork chop around his neck and have him play with your dogs...
Seriously though, I couldn't imagine going through the trauma of witnessing this repetitive cycle over and over again. In my sitch, its been one confirmed PA in Az during a business trip in July, and in the short time (albeit seemingly forever since) I am at the end of my rope. I've reached my limit.
[This message edited by HurtingandLost at 4:24 PM, November 17th (Wednesday)]
she has sworn over and over that she never had any sexual feelings for him and visa-versa... more like best buddies.
Im not buying that.
IMO ALL A start this way (unless its a ONS or some hooker thing).
I was convinced OM was gay. I mean.. he dressed and talked like a frigging fruit-loop. WW tell me that he was her best buddy.
Turn out to be the fuck-buddy type.
I need to see change, or at least a struggle to change. I am at a point where I do not see my role in the marriage is to point out her mistakes. I can’t discover all of them, so she needs to learn how to see them herself. She’s a big girl, has counciling, knows the right actions, and should be able to recognize her own mistakes at this point: Especially something glaring like this. So..... we’ll see what happens. Has she learned anything, or is she still the liar and rug sweeper?
Im not buying that.
IMO ALL A start this way (unless its a ONS or some hooker thing).
I fear that you may just be seeing the tip of the ice berg here.
Now is it a bit clearer why I’m so detached and why it is necessary for my own survival to let it all go and just focus on today, this moment? The past needs to be addressed, but I just don't feel she's there yet to really explore it.
Given her past betrayals she should not have contact with any guy who is not friends of the marriage.
If I was in your shoes I would have filed for D long ago.
It brings up something for me, what is acceptable behavior for a fww to have with another man post A, now before my wifes A I trusted her 100% as I guess some of you did with your wifes. I didn't have a problem with her having a friendship with a workmate as I assumed foolishly she knew where the slippery slope started. When I checked her work emails the other day I saw a conversation between her and another man (a workmate) that was joking around. harmless enough pre A but it kind of freaked me out. She plays Roller Derby (yeah long story that) and had a game in the weekend and had emailed the guy a photo of her playing with the title don't show anybody else this, its a harmless photo that is all over FB as well, I confronted her about it, I had to, it plagued me all night. Her response was he is interested in Roller Derby and she didn't want it to be all over the office. There was nothing sinister in the email but this is where I get nervous and confused. Pre A this would be a non event, but now I know what she is capable of I find it unacceptable. She of course was pissed that I was snooping and accusing. Am I overreacting here? Is it acceptable this far out from D day for her to be friends with another man. Has she learnt anything from this whole experience? Or am I just one paranoid dude.
Or am I just one paranoid dude.
Zombieman, you are one paranoid dude, which is perfectly understanable at just a few months out.
If you two pursue R, and if your WS demonstrates sustained trustworthy behavior (even when she does not need to), and if you are convinced she understands why she had her A, and you are comfortable she will not repeat.... then this sort of thing may be acceptable.
Over a year out FWW does not have male friends on Facebook, and does not meet alone with male potential donors or volunteers for work.
Your feelings seem well in-line for where you are from dday and NC violation.
I wonder if she's not partially medicating the withdrawl symptoms from NC with the PA OM with the contact with this guy.
She may well not have any sexual feeling for him .... YET ... but they may well develope later if the 'friendship' is allowed to intesify.
Why would the friendship suddenly pick up now after it had almost fizzled out?
She knows your boundaries, why would she flaunt them by not telling you about contact with him, by lying about it?
These are the things that leap out at me about this situation.
Id suggest that it is an opportunity for you to enforce your boundaries, to show both your W and yourself that your prepared to defend them. That you will enact the consequences if they are broken.
Confront her about the whole thing, restate what your boundaries are, restate the immediate consequences and the longterm consequences should they continue to be broken, follow through on the immediate consequences.
re-read your boundaries, look at the parts that say why you have them, none of those reasons have changed, your boundaries are still as valid today as when you wrote them out.
Ultimately if your W cannot or willnot stop overstepping your boundaries, then one of two things must happen, you will have to subjugate yourself, alter your boundaries and accept the emotional damage that boundary was in place to stop. Or you will ultimately have to seperate yourself from her, either physically or emotionally. IMHO the best choice for anyone, and also for their children that are learning about life by their example is to uphold your boundaries and seperate physically.
I hope that your W will respond positively when she sees the emotional distress her actions are causing, and that you will not tolerate it.
...oh and with the dogs, they may have FOO issues or some other crap that has happened that makes them like they are, but they are also still dogs, Sometimes its simply just what they are. Now that your aware of this ability to turn vicious, your dogs are probably a lot less dangerous to you and the people around you than if you still felt they were 100% trustworthy. And so the paralells continue.
THAT she is pissed shows clearly to me that she is not what you need her to be - she is not what she needs to be,
and that is
What the hell? If YOU cheated, and really wanted to R...would YOU be pissed if she snooped?
Don't. Think. So.
So, what has she learned?
Enough to slide around your boundaries, tickle the edges of 'entitlement', and keep you in line with her pissiness.
But NOT enough to bring real peace to your heart. She has NOT learned the value of transparency either.
Cheaters LOSE "rights" to "privacy", since they used their privacy for SECRETS to betray your ass.
zombie, since when does she have the right to be pissed?
Exactly! Maybe I've just become incredibly selfish over protecting myself from WW and her evil ways but who cares about her past, her motives, her privacy, her FOO issues, whether or not the OM is just her pal, and the string of psychobabble and excuses that come out of her mouth to justify the inappropriate behavior that continues to cause me pain? I used to care about all those things and discuss them ad infinitum. What did that get me? A second D-day and years of more misery and fighting. Just stop it. Do what I tell you or you're out on your butt!
She can be rightfully pissed at you if you walk into the house every day with muddy boots and spread it all over the house and then do nothing to clean it up.....
However getting pissed at you for verifying whats going on after she destroyed your trust? In that i agree with jjct.
Actually my take on privacy is that its something you offer or give to your partner, If you destroy the trust that allows them to give you that privacy then you shouldnt be surprised that they dont offer it anymore. If you really want to be in the relationship with them you will accept the lack of privacy. If for some reason your desire to keep information private is more important than your relationship with them then somethings going to give.
Privacy was a big issue for me and my W.... I didnt want to read every text or email she sent or recieved, but i wanted to know that i could if i felt the need. She was defiantly insisting that by having access i was breaking the privacy of her friends... which is a sort of valid argument, until you realise that all it would take is to let her friends know that i have full access to her texts and email.... really anything that is so private probably belongs in personal conversation anyway and not in a text or email.
In as much, I have her emails forwarded to my smart phone automatically, and have, shall we say, "logistically acquired" several of her passwords to various accounts.
SHE GETS PISSED IF SHE FINDS OUT I CHECKED SOMETHING. OR CATCH HER IN SOMETHING. SHE THROWS A FIT AND DEMANDS "PRIVACY".
Without remorse, there is NO HOPE.
I will add my words to the others here. If you WW had remorse. She would keep herself away from ANYTHING that might even remotely make you uncomfortable. Working to making you feel safe again would be her priority.
That is not happening. Is it?
This is not looking good for you IMO.
Boundaries and rules. We’ve gone over them again and again. She knew what the proper action was. Contact with him wasn’t specifically disallowed, but should at first opportunity be brought up before a discovery. And because he was a EA, it should have been a large concern. Furthermore, I did bring up no less than a couple weeks ago that I was seeing her actions slip into that comfort zone and relaxing on the rules. So I reinforced at that time that I was not over this, it is still daily for me, and I still take one day at a time. She failed the test in multiple areas. Not a deal breaker (the text were harmless), but definitely a large step back in the R and handled extremely poorly from her. The reason it isn’t a deal breaker for me is there are rules of the marriage, and rules of the R. The marriage rules are dealbreakers. The R rules I see as temporary until we sort everything out. So, deleting and hiding are marriage no-no’s. Forgetting to mention contact with a “watch list” person is a condition of the R. Basically if our marriage was strong, and we had re-established trust, would this bother me to a point of divorce? Nope, even with the past history.
Ramifications: I may go to her counciling session and tell her councilor these are the sorts of things my wife needs help on before I can commit to the marriage. This was her self-sabotage of what she is trying to earn from me. I’ll start the 180 and bury myself in work until she initiates a conversation about it.
Zombie; No, she shouldn’t get pissed. My WW understands that I can check on her anytime and why she lost her privacy. She doesn’t like it, but has no choice but to accept it as a consequence of her abuse of her privacy to hurt me.
SCD: It’s possible she’s medicating withdraw symptoms. It’s not the first time. Only she knows the answer and until it’s explained to me, I no longer try to spend my energy theorizing (I try to at least limit it ). I watch actions and listen now. She can explain herself.
She would keep herself away from ANYTHING that might even remotely make you uncomfortable.
This is the tricky part. I don't think she gets that what she did (in this instance) would make me uncomfortable.
Remorse is a really hard one to gauge with her. I have seen a pretty dramatic change from her, more tears, a lot more sorrys and some nice actions, coming home early, being in touch all the time, some gifts, a lot less blameshifting. Ownership that she really really broke our marriage and potentially our family.
But she is frustrated by my lack of movement to 'getting over it' and 'moving on'. She expects that after a couple of weeks of her really trying that I should be better. She doesn't think I will ever be happy again. She wants a normal life again. The anger phase rears it's ugly head sometimes and I say things which doesn't help the cause. I try to explain to her that I don't hate her, I hate the choices she made.
I showed her this article:
To show her that (in her own words) I am not 'mad' or 'weird' that I am going through a normal process. I thought she got it, but a couple of days later she is back to not thinking it is going to work due to me and my inability to 'not ever get over it'.
I'm unsure if she still gets why she did this - well she isn't vocalizing it anyway. Closest I've got is 'I am mental'. Hmm. Are you still mental? Are you going to be mental again anytime soon?
Transparency has always been an issue, she feels that I misinterpret things eg txt messages and so on. It's a dead cause right there.
In her world it is now up to me to show her that i can be happy again, if I don't rock the boat then things are smooth sailing and I start getting a glimpse of a remorseful wife, but if I trigger on something and either get upset or ask her a question about the A then we hit the rocks in a big way.
I want a truly remorseful shit owning W, I want a happy life with her and my son but I don't know if that is ever going to happen, I think I will get a W that had her fun, didn't like the impact it had on her life, does feel sorry for me, but will rug sweep if I let her. If I keep pushing for what I want from her, she will walk. Yeah it's not looking great.
[This message edited by zombieman at 1:26 PM, November 18th (Thursday)]
I want a truly remorseful shit owning W, I want a happy life with her and my son but I don't know if that is ever going to happen, I think I will get a W that had her fun, didn't like the impact it had on her life, does feel sorry for me, but will rug sweep if I let her. If I keep pushing for what I want from her, she will walk.
I'd hazard a guess that most WW are exactly like this-I know mine is...the best case scenario ain't gonna happen here. M is such a disappointment to me.