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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men-Part 6 (Men only)
HurtingandLost
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Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 1:36 PM, November 18th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"I want a truly remorseful shit owning W, I want a happy life with her and my son but I don't know if that is ever going to happen, I think I will get a W that had her fun, didn't like the impact it had on her life, does feel sorry for me, but will rug sweep if I let her. If I keep pushing for what I want from her, she will walk."

To reiterate once again what we've all asked in Part 5, I think we all married the same woman. Or they are at least related.

In my sitch, she's not walking. I'm running. 35 days and counting....


holding out hope
UPDATE: Hope's Dead

Posts: 430 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: CO
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 1:37 PM, November 18th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ever feel like a yo-yo on the end of a string? She flicks her wrist and we go down(away from her) or up(close to her) depending on how well we're 'getting over it.' We either cut the string or stay dizzy.

Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 1:42 PM, November 18th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I want a truly remorseful shit owning W, I want a happy life with her and my son but I don't know if that is ever going to happen, I think I will get a W that had her fun, didn't like the impact it had on her life, does feel sorry for me, but will rug sweep if I let her. If I keep pushing for what I want from her, she will walk.

Yeh me to. That was the way me WW was way back then. You know what? It hasnt gotten any better.

Looking back. I wish I had just let her walk. I know this is not some thing you can do most likely. I am allot farther down the road. So its easy to look back with 20/20 vision. But if some one had give me that advice back then I most likely would not have taken it.

Hope is a mother fucker my friend. Hope will keep you swinging in the breeze waiting for what ever crumbs you WW will toss you. Thru hope I ended up betraying me self as bad or may be worse than me WW did with her LTA. It bears repeating. Hope is a mother fucker.

In me rear view mirror. I can see clearly that a WW is either gonna get it or they arent. And if they arent then really it is NOT worth your time. Best to cut you losses and walk away or let her do the walking. Best to just avoid the whole cluster fuck that you life will become living with a WW that has little or no remorse for you. No empathy. No love. No nothing. Best to avoid the void of limbo.

I know you cant do that. I know and I under stand. Because I couldnt. I didnt. And I have paid the price my friend.

Hope is a god damned mother fucker.

Razor


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3088 | Registered: Sep 2007
zombieman
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Member # 28996
Default  Posted: 2:24 PM, November 18th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Razor I hear you loud and clear. I think about a new life quite often and I would add to your hope is a mother fucker, that the unknown is an asshole.

Here's the thing though. Is remorse as simple as black and white, on or off? Or are their shades in between? OK she's not doing all these things that the SI crew see as necessary for R and what is defined as remorse. But she is doing some of them and doing them pretty well. I guess time will tell what I can put up with over the long run.

The Yo Yo analogy is pretty accurate.


Posts: 88 | Registered: Jul 2010
HurtingandLost
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Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 2:39 PM, November 18th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The Yo-Yo shit is what is pushing me away, far and fast. Its a form of manipulation and tells me that my feelings, needs, and wants in our M so we can R dont mean shit.


holding out hope
UPDATE: Hope's Dead

Posts: 430 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: CO
Mr. Kite
♂ Member
Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 2:42 PM, November 18th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Here's the thing though. Is remorse as simple as black and white, on or off? Or are their shades in between?

Good point Z-man. Remorse is defined as "deep and painful regret for wrongdoing." I don't expect WW to crawl across hot coals with tears running down her face while begging for forgiveness.

What I do expect is for her to stop blaming me, other people, the death of her mother, God, depression, and a myriad of other people, places, and things for her evil actions.

In my experience, people do not change their ways until they've totally owned what they've done wrong. Adam tried to blame Eve for eating fruit off the wrong tree. How did that work out?

So my definition of remorse, which is the only one in my M that counts, is to own it and stop doing it. Anything less than that is not true remorse.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 2:49 PM, November 18th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

zombie.

It sound to me like you WW is doing the MINIMUM she has to just to keep you around. We function as bread winners / bill payers / house fixers / car fixers / trash taker outers. So if WW can do what she need to keep us in line and performing our function while at the same time still doing as she please. Then this is a big win for her.

As you say. Remorse is not so much a black and white thing. More of a getting what you need vs. NOT getting what you need thing. To often we settle. Which is a shame. Because we are worth more than that. But the enuf vs not enuf thing has to be decided by you.

All that said. If you WW is not all the way into the game. Not trying with all her might to win you back. Then I think this is a very big red flag. And as such. I think you should carefully consider what you are giving up vs. what you are getting in return.

Is saving you M worth the price you will have to pay? Are you getting enuf in return to make it worth you while?

AND is you WW doing what she need so that she wont do this again?

Razor


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3088 | Registered: Sep 2007
atsenaotie
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Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 3:18 PM, November 18th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is remorse as simple as black and white, on or off? Or are their shades in between?

Shades, or prehaps depths of remorse. Interesting that today I went back and re-read journal entries from March (6 months after dday). Looking back, I cannot believe the crap FWW threw at me and I tolerated. For instance:

We are not different in how we feel right now. You feel like a victim of my behavior, I feel like a victim of your behavior. No, you didn’t cheat and that makes you a much better person than I. But you did cheat, you chose everything and anything over developing a relationship with me…. Of that, you have no remorse, no guilt. You didn’t cheat, you are perfect. You didn’t cheat, therefore, you are the “good” guy, I am the villain. I am the evil one, you didn’t cheat.

I don’t care if you don’t believe, I understand. You may never trust me, I understand that too. This may never work out either… but if it doesn’t, we share the responsibility 50/50 in fucking it up or we can share 50/50 fixing it up. However, if I am to be accountable for my “sins” you are also to be accountable for yours and to give me answers for why you did things you did and the different paths you chose along the way that contributed to us being at the point of divorce.

Things have changed and she no longer holds these opinions, but it took a year and my temporarily moving out to get to this point. FWW was not a poster child for R initially. Ever since dday she insisted she felt remorse, but it was not until about 7 months out that I saw some, and a month or two after that to see some empathy.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3968 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 3:28 PM, November 18th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

atsenaotie you have just convinced me that we are M to the same woman.

I mean.. the quotes you put in are practically verbatim what me WW said.

creepy.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3088 | Registered: Sep 2007
atsenaotie
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Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 3:33 PM, November 18th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The difference Razor is that my FWW seems to be getting it and making painfully slow baby steps.

Still, when I look back at the early days it pisses me off what I put up with. It scares me that 6 months to a year form now I will be saying the exact same thing.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3968 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 3:46 PM, November 18th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

actually I hope you do say those things. Because it would indicate progress.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3088 | Registered: Sep 2007
StillGoing
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Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 3:51 PM, November 18th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It brings up something for me, what is acceptable behavior for a fww to have with another man post A, now before my wifes A I trusted her 100% as I guess some of you did with your wifes.

I know you got a lot of replies already but what is acceptable behavior is what's acceptable to you.

Before her A I was just as trusting. I gave her weekends off where she could get away from the kids and relax. Ya, looks stupid now I guess.

Acceptable behavior to me is: Do not talk to other men in private unless they're doctors or it's otherwise unavoidable, no intimate contact whatsoever. Not even my best bud of 20 years at this point. Private texts, emails, anything are so far out of bounds I think I would see a lawyer same day if I found them, for any reason that wasn't "Here's a surprise party with cake and a hundred cases of your favorite microbrew en route."

Really, they can come up with any reason or any excuse they want, but they're the ones who fucked other guys, lied and engaged in behaviors that are undeniably destructive and malign. They stepped outside the accepted norm so the accepted norm is no longer applicable as far as social behaviors go.

Also, interesting:

What I do expect is for her to stop blaming me, other people, the death of her mother, God, depression, and a myriad of other people, places, and things for her evil actions.

In my experience, people do not change their ways until they've totally owned what they've done wrong. Adam tried to blame Eve for eating fruit off the wrong tree. How did that work out?

Owning your own shit is absolutely the only way to fix shit. I have dealt with so many admins over the phone that will not admit they pulled a stupid; deleted a user group or modded a firewall rule, and subsequently took down a 5000 user MAN... and it takes hours, sometimes into the night and next dawn, to track down the error and fix it. If they own the shit right away it gets back up in no time. It is the same with people - tossing that shit around and avoiding it means it never gets fixed, at all.


I read today a parallel drawn between Eve and Prometheus; Eve gave Knowledge to Man, Prometheus gave Fire, in both cases it was the road to maturity as individuals and civilization. At the end I thought: Damn, Eve got multiple orgasms and Prometheus got a royal fuckjob.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7119 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 4:23 PM, November 18th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If it means anything, ats, I got almost exactly the same line about affairs with work and computers and whatever else in the 3-6 month range. I actually got a list of things I needed to change about myself to focus on her and the marriage after D-day if "we were going to make this work."

Unlike most folks, I didn't just disregard the list, I actively worked at getting worse at everything on the list. And by 6 months out? She was telling me I was the best man in the history of men.

I recognized the blameshifting early on, especially the bits about never being there and not doing my part to care for the family/kids...because I knew on D-day that I wasn't the one who was spending three nights a week sleeping at the OM's house. I was the one making dinner, going to work, getting the kids off to school, etc.

I honestly still couldn't tell you if this is part of the demonization process or just the basic delusion inherent in spending so much of the WS's time physically/mentally/emotionally outside of the marriage that they legitimately do not see what the BS is actually doing because they're not there to see it.

(One of the big things I did do after D-day was I stopped doing any chores around the house unless my wife was there to witness it. All the things I had just sort of done in the background for which I apparently received no credit, I made sure she saw me doing them.)

However, there is one thing I want to point out. I've been saying for years that all affairs are revenge affairs. In every example I've ever seen, the WS is paying the BS back for some perceived failure. I believe this is fundamentally true. It's more than just demonization, it is revenge for failing to be or do something the WS wants from the BS.

All affairs are acts of aggression against the BS, which is why the blameshifting and "you have to fix your shit just like I have to fix mine" piece is so essential to the WS.

My answer to this was always simple, "Where I may have failed, I have now paid for it. Those issues are now moot. You took your pound of flesh. Just because you might not like how your method of making me pay turned out doesn't change the fact that you've charged your price and I've now paid it. That bill is null and void."


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 4:28 PM, November 18th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've been saying for years that all affairs are revenge affairs. In every example I've ever seen, the WS is paying the BS back for some perceived failure.

another piece of the puzzle for me.

Thanks for that wincing.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3088 | Registered: Sep 2007
HurtingandLost
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Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 4:50 PM, November 18th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wincing -

You're a damn genius. I read your posts time and again never cease to be amazed by your insightfulness.

Thanks for casting some more light into this shadow....


holding out hope
UPDATE: Hope's Dead

Posts: 430 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: CO
Mighty
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Member # 26909
Default  Posted: 4:52 PM, November 18th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lol wincing. I did the same. She had a list of everything bad or wrong about me. While working on me, I did listen and corrected a lot of sins in the marriage where I was partially to blame. My wife tells me this is what made her love me again; Just the fact that I listened and took the changes seriously. So now I’m a good husband...

But there’s a bit of revenge in there for me. If I should decide to D, I want her to feel be absolutely crushed. This wouldn’t happen if I was still the demon she had me pegged as during the A; she also won’t change for the demon. Instead of doing what she said, I’d cut to the real issue and improved on it. So, I work on myself. I am a good man and a good catch. I am better than any other man she knows or could ever get. This doesn’t mean I’m a lap dog again; those days are dead. I do things my way now. And if I leave her, she will regret and feel that loss at a core level... it won’t be a happy day for her or a relief. The better person I am, the more she wants to be with that person, and the more willing she is to change to continue to stay. This is one of the reasons why you focus on you.

I totally agree with you on the revenge affair thing. Whether you were aware or not, you failed your spouse in their eyes. Changing that perception of “you” is critical to get change in them.


BS (me) 44 WS (her)43
Married 17yrs, Together 20 yrs
Three children (9-13)
D-Day #1 - 4/11/09 (me).. DD's stopped, she quit talking. Body count: 6 OM, 1 OW. (2 EA's, 1 LTPA, 1 PA, 3 "kisses").

Posts: 629 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Denver
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 5:17 PM, November 18th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I guess the primary difference in my approach, Mighty, is that I knew essentially on D-day that my wife was not just talking out of her ass but delusional. The bipolar diagnosis a week later just confirmed it.

Part of that is due to the fact that I've never really suffered from self-confidence issues. I've got a pretty good sense of what sort of person I am, what my true strengths and weaknesses are, etc. If my wife's list had come close to any of my actual weaknesses, I might have fallen into her trap, but instead she focused on things I absolutely knew I was excelling at compared to the other men/husbands we knew.

I'm a firm believer that everything that comes out of a WW's mouth for at least the first six months should be dismissed as bullshit and desperation, and the best thing a BH can do in that period is set about reclaiming the life and dreams he put on hold when he took on the rule of husband.

When you're married to a woman with significant self-esteem issues, I'm convinced that the best way to entice her back into the marriage isn't sweetness and honey, but pushing her to the brink of abandonment. Women with shattered self-esteem seem to only be able to gear themselves up to infidelity when they feel like they've got their husbands in the bag, when they can take them for granted enough that they inherently disrespect him. That is, he's not going to go anywhere.

The men who seem to succeed in the infidelity mess are the ones who make it clear that they're ready and willing to walk away, that their wives are, in fact, disposable until and unless they can prove to their husbands that *they're* good enough to be in his life. They're motivated to work because they can't stand the thought of being disposable...because that reinforces all of their own latent self-defining fears.

I cried in front of my wife exactly twice, and one of those times was in the middle of the night on D-day. If I had to cry, I cried with others or I did it in my truck. (I'm not much of a crier, so we're not talking huge emotional suppression here. )

But both times I did it, I was struck immediately and forcefully with the reality that it was exactly what my wife wanted. She wanted to see me broken and dependent on her for support. If I was broken before her, then she could heal me, and then she could get credit for having fixed it all...and thus minimize the totality of the betrayal.

I refused to take part in it and adopted instead the attitude that "I don't need you. In fact, I'm not sure I even want you. Show me what you've got and I'll decide if it's good enough later."

It ultimately worked for us. It wasn't easy. It was lonely sometimes. It was rage-making a bunch of times. I contemplated divorce literally every day for close to three years. But as my wife says, if I'd actually fallen into her and let her hold me up, or been the touchy-feely "we'll get through this *together*" sort, she would have never stood on her own two feet and done the work she needed to do to get herself healthy. Sure, sometimes she did it just to prove me wrong, but she *did* it.

At the end of the day, our process was (and I figured it would be from the beginning) a high-risk, high-gain gamble. The key for me was that if the gamble failed and the marriage went down in flames, I was okay with that. On some days, I even yearned for that, but at the end of the day, my happiness didn't hinge on whether or not my marriage survived or my wife found remorse. My goal was always to heal myself by whatever means necessary...and I wasn't going to recommit to the marriage until I was certain I had a partner worth committing to.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 5:21 PM, November 18th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Addendum:

I should also mention that the other benefit to the approach I took is that if the marriage *had* gone down in flames, I'd be here going all thyme2go on you guys and telling you how divorce was the best thing that ever happened to me.

When keeping your wife/the marriage ceases to signify, there are no outcomes except winning.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
atsenaotie
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Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 6:26 PM, November 18th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

wal, I like your concept of all A's being about revenge. For quite a while FWW explained her A's by saying "if Atsenaotie doesn't love me I will find someone who will."

Razor, thank you for a different perspective on the possibility of complaining about her past behavior 6 months from now might be a good thing.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3968 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
jjct
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Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 6:45 PM, November 18th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

zomb
In her world it is now up to me to show her that i can be happy again,

No. It isn't. BullSHIT!
You've been fired from that position.
Not your job.
No more!

if I don't rock the boat then things are smooth sailing

No shit sherlock! As long as she can manipulate you into acquiescence, you aint rockin her
oh-so-entitled boat.

I'd be saying; I can swim bitch, canoe?

and wal...someday...
I aspire to be
in the pantheon of mention
of thyme's canoe,
with you.



Posts: 6032 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
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