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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men-Part 6 (Men only)
64fleet
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Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 12:22 PM, December 10th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There's wayyyyy too many illegals around here for me to get my hands dirty, cop or not-in fact a cop might even be a discount rate.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5359 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
Merlin
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Member # 30221
Default  Posted: 12:48 PM, December 10th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"I told him you were an awesome husband, and father. A great provider. And how much I love you. Then I sucked his dick and fucked him dry!"

Jimi,

Word. There's nothing left so say.

Thanks.


"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." D. H. Lawrence

Her: WW/56 Me: BS/62, 24yrs M
3 great kids, now 22, 20, 17 b,b,g
D-Day 8/14/08, D 1/13/11


Posts: 1106 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: East Coast
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 1:08 PM, December 10th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There's really no dignity that can be retained after an affair. None. All of the carping about details, I think, sidetracks both the BS and the WS. (Did she do this? Did she do that? Did she tell him she loved him? Did he say it to her? Did she say awful things about me?)

I made much, much more traction in my healing by simply assuming the worst about everything I did not know. If I could process the worst and still stay in the marriage, then the truth didn't matter. Saved me the trouble of processing something lesser, busting her with the truth and then having to get pissed off all over again about the new truth as well as the lies told to me.

Then I could just be pissed off about the lie itself.

This is also a pretty good technique for letting the truly important stuff that you *really* want the truth about filter to the top. If you assume the worst about, say, swallowing after oral sex and it doesn't freak you out, then you don't have to waste time and effort even asking if she blew him. You just assume she did and act accordingly.

We're all going to have the little things that we freak out about. It's a good thing to identify those as quickly as possible so you can focus on them.

Assuming the worst and coping as though the worst is true is one way of getting at it.

As others have said, I also truly believe that after the A is over, the memories of the truly horrible stuff begin to fade and get replaced by "what I would like to think I did/said" fantasies aimed at restoring self-image. The more time that passes after D-day, or the longer the affair went on, the more distorted picture the BS will get if what the A was really like. What we really get is a picture of what the A was like as it was winding down, not when it was in full swing, cock-pounding action.

FWIW, my wife has told me since D-day that she has almost no memories of the A. Because of her bipolar disorder (and with the corroboration of her psychiatrist, who assures me that memory gaps when manic are common), I've come to believe her. She burned all of her journals on D-day so I wouldn't be able to read them, so there's literally no record of her A except the pieces I have been able to uncover from various sources.

And when I ask/say/assume the worst, she will tell me definitively that she never did x, y or z (i.e., never told him she loved him, never talked badly about me, never said she was leaving me, etc). How she can know this when she doesn't remember anything of her affair but snapshots over that 2 years, I have no idea. The fact that I have elected to assume the worst means I don't have to care.

I don't think she's actively lying to me here, though. I think she's just constructing the image of who she wants to be and who she thought of herself as prior and subsequent to the A and rationalizing that the person she knew herself to be wouldn't have done those things. Whether that's true or not, neither one of us will ever know.

[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 1:11 PM, December 10th (Friday)]


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 1:46 PM, December 10th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Absolutely true WAL. I'm much more concerned about the person she is now. Unfortunately the lying, hiding, blame-shifting, and generally manic, bizarre thinking continues. Why would I believe her behavior has changed since the discovery of the A's, if her thinking hasn't changed one iota?

[This message edited by Mr. Kite at 1:48 PM, December 10th (Friday)]


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
64fleet
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Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 1:58 PM, December 10th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Mine claims memory lapses also, but can remember all her nieces/cousins bdays, when her sis got M'd(both times), when she started college, etc etc; the non-memory shit seems only when referring to her As. Blames alcohol, but still remembers other shit, like today was her folks' anniversary(both deceased for yrs).

I got no fucking clue when my folks M other than it was January, & my sis was born in July...


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5359 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
wincing_at_light
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Default  Posted: 2:04 PM, December 10th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think that's a legitimate question, Mr. Kite, because I realized even as I was processing my worst-case scenarios that I was essentially demonizing my WS intentionally. I was making her responsible for the worst violations I could dredge up and then basing my assumptions about the future on those and on the image of her as a person that those assumptions created.

It defined her floor and ceiling for me, and while I was aware that the truth was probably at neither of those extremes, how I related to her was based fundamentally on them.

I built my reconciliation from the ashes of the assumption that "every way I can think of to have been violated has been done to me by you, willingly, actively and intentionally". It was a tough pill to come to grips with, but then again, I exposed enough minimizations early on that it was a tactic that made sense.

(Of course, I also learned that one of the best ways to get at the truth was just to speak my assumptions as though they were facts -- i.e., "So I know you went to blow him on my birthday after I went to bed. How were you able to live with yourself?" Then I just gauged the reaction and knew the truth from there. That's a fictional example, btw. )

Why would I believe her behavior has changed since the discovery of the A's, if her thinking hasn't changed one iota?

Quite simply, I wouldn't.

Here's my thing, though: especially after D-day, I'm wishy-washy on how reliable behaviors are as a barometer. Any dumbass WS who is trying to keep their marriage had best damned well be on their absolute best behavior. Even a 5-year old can tell you that. After you get busted, be on your best behavior.

In the short term, actions don't tell you dick about who they are, only that they're hoping to preserve what they've got, which *could* mean that they're hoping to change. Not necessarily, but it does mean they have a stake in the process (i.e., not wanting to lose what they've got, whether it's from comfort, fear of abandonment, lifestyle, etc.)

The only time actions seem definitive to me is when even the most obvious ones aren't followed. Can't keep NC, can't help but be defensive, won't read books, make efforts, keeps lying, etc. The absence of actions necessary to meet even a minimum threshold by which the average person would consider R'ing with your stupid wayward ass speaks volumes about the desire and willingness to change (or at least to stay in the marriage -- which, from the BS perspective, should be roughly equivalent; if they don't intend to stay in the marriage, you don't have to give a fuck if they change or not.)

Of course, I should also add that my wife was an *incredibly* slow starter when it came to this stuff. Like ages and ages of zilch except rug-sweeping and cramming her head up her ass.

On the other hand, she dove head first into treatment for her bipolar disorder, and that was significant. Even as a newly-minted BS, I understood that until that was addressed, we weren't making any progress. So while she was late for a ton of the basics, she acted significantly (and in very telling ways) on the vital ones.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
longsadstory1952
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Default  Posted: 2:08 PM, December 10th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I got the I don't remember stuff all the time til I finally gave up. did I ever really think that was true? No way. To me it is a passive form of TT. And it never ends!

Posts: 357 | Registered: Jul 2010
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 2:14 PM, December 10th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

longsadstory.

I got that to. And your right it never ends.

I have a version of WAL method.

I assume the worst.
Try not to think about it.
Avoid locations where I know they met.

Razor


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
Geeman1967
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Default  Posted: 4:23 PM, December 10th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I assumed the worst as well but I wanted to hear the details from WW's own lips I wanted her to admit to her indiscretions to show that she had was willing to own her shit and not wait for each irrefutable piece of evidence before admitting each little TT. You can not apologize without a full admission of your wrong doings.

The thing that never ceased to amaze me was my WW abilty to remove the context of my reactions from proceedings as if the affair had never taken place.

"your so bitter"
"Your always angry"

Well excuse me if I am not sprinkling the house with rose petals in honor of you sucking OM's Dick bitch!!

Blah blah blah

sorry descending into rant


Who did I marry!!!???
Oh yeah STBXW

Posts: 39 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: London
Mr. Kite
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Default  Posted: 4:36 PM, December 10th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I assumed the worst as well but I wanted to hear the details from WW's own lips I wanted her to admit to her indiscretions to show that she had was willing to own her shit and not wait for each irrefutable piece of evidence before admitting each little TT. You can not apologize without a full admission of your wrong doings.

That's right! You don't get beyond it until you totally own it, and neither do I--at least as far the M goes.

At this point it doesn't make any difference what comes out of her mouth. If she was right in front of me and hooked up to a polygraph and pumped full of sodium pentathol, I still wouldn't believe her. All credibility is gone. That's part of the damage done. It's not what I want but it's my own personal reality.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
HurtingandLost
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Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 5:33 PM, December 10th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I assumed the worst as well but I wanted to hear the details from WW's own lips I wanted her to admit to her indiscretions to show that she had was willing to own her shit and not wait for each irrefutable piece of evidence before admitting each little TT. You can not apologize without a full admission of your wrong doings

and

The only time actions seem definitive to me is when even the most obvious ones aren't followed. Can't keep NC, can't help but be defensive, won't read books, make efforts, keeps lying, etc. The absence of actions necessary to meet even a minimum threshold by which the average person would consider R'ing with your stupid wayward ass speaks volumes about the desire and willingness to change (or at least to stay in the marriage -- which, from the BS perspective, should be roughly equivalent; if they don't intend to stay in the marriage, you don't have to give a fuck if they change or not.)

Pretty much sum up where I'm at. MC is getting ready to rip her a new one so we will see if it shakes her up enough to effect any change

I'm not holding my breath. I smoke too much to waste oxygen like that....


holding out hope
UPDATE: Hope's Dead

Posts: 430 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: CO
wincing_at_light
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Default  Posted: 5:53 PM, December 10th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I got busy with work (you know, at work) and had to cut my last thoughts short (Ha!), but I wanted to add this caveat:

I'm not suggesting at all that anyone should make "assuming the worst" and constructing their affair narrative based on it their default position. If you can get actual concrete answers, get them. If you can break your WS down to a complete shuddering mess and extract the truth through sheer force of will, and you want to do that, do it.

Your WS owes you the truth, and you're entitled to it if they expect to reconcile. If there's any resistance for whatever reason (usually "protecting you"), I'm a big fan of absolutely breaking the WS's spirit by whatever means necessary. If anyone is going to come out of infidelity a completely scarred PTSD wreck, it might as well be the WS instead of the BS. All is fair in love, war and infidelity.

So, probe. Get answers. Do whatever it takes, but if/when they won't break or honestly (for whatever reason: mental illness, drug habit, blotto intoxication, etc.) can't remember, then you fill in the gaps with your worst case scenario and hold them accountable as if that is the gospel truth.

See, in my mind, it's not enough to just construct a narrative using the worst case to test your forgiveness boundaries, you need to be prepared to hold them accountable for having done the worst and set your boundaries/marriage offer going forward accordingly.

I suspect that when you start leveling consequences for worst case scenarios, a great many WS's will suddenly remember much more than they thought they did. Ignorance of the truth is not a defense in the court of infidelity.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Jimi40
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Default  Posted: 6:26 PM, December 10th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

That's what I like about you Winc, you never wade into the bullshit, because it's faster to swim through it.

It's a real sore spot for me to think she of what she would have had to tell people about me, to justify that!!


You've got nowhere to fall, when your back's to the wall.

Posts: 5524 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Niagara
mkgit
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Default  Posted: 7:00 PM, December 10th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

if anyone is going to come out of infidelity a completely scarred PTSD wreck, it might as well be the WS instead of the BS.

FK right! btw, i met the lawyers this afternoon. short story is i'm screwed with the kids (especially since one is 5 months old). depressing news but not too surprising.


Posts: 31 | Registered: Nov 2010
Lotsa
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Default  Posted: 7:01 PM, December 10th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I suspect that when you start leveling consequences for worst case scenarios, a great many WS's will suddenly remember much more than they thought they did.

Spot on WAL...

After 4 months of bull shit, I moved out, moved on and told her that I would never speak with her or acknowledge her presence ever again. Low and behold, her amnesia was cured. Unfortunately for xWS it was too late. I had already moved further enough along that it didn't matter anymore.

ETA - My sitch was a little different to many in that we were not M and did not have any kids. So my response was *easier* perhaps than others. The only redeeming nature of her belated actions is that we do still speak and with a house still to sell and 2 dogs, we do keep in touch.

[This message edited by Lotsa at 7:15 PM, December 10th (Friday)]


Posts: 880 | Registered: Mar 2010
GeauxTigers
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Default  Posted: 9:13 PM, December 10th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

[Quote]Geauxtigers.. the generalizing guidelines still apply in here.

Fair enough, Meta. I thought it was pretty clearly labeled a joke, but point taken. I'll behave.


Sigh... how did I end up here?

Posts: 1379 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: Nashville
3yrwait
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Default  Posted: 10:30 PM, December 10th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think she's just constructing the image of who she wants to be and who she thought of herself as prior and subsequent to the A and rationalizing that the person she knew herself to be wouldn't have done those things. Whether that's true or not, neither one of us will ever know.

Exactly right, WAL. Memories are often inaccurate. We have snapshots and fill in the gaps ourselves. (Since DDay I've become an avid reader of matters regarding irrationality, intuition, and influence...I can thank WW for a newfound passion )
Having said that, WS must still make every effort to answer questions honestly...no TT, no blameshifting. So we can't expect memory to be 100% accurate, but we can expect remorse.


Me: BH (early 40s)
Her: WW (early 40s)
Married 15 years
1 daughter, under 10
DDay July 2007

Posts: 450 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: 3yrwait
StillGoing
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Default  Posted: 8:57 AM, December 11th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She is definitely constructing an image of who she is.

My wife seems to be a fast learner with this. I am hoping it is because it is honest and deep remorse. Early on she hemmed and hawed, even after the last of the TT I got. There was defensiveness and argument. The "i don't remember" stuff. She didn't like talking bad about the affair or OM because it made her look bad. When those words actually tumbled out of her mouth - "How does that make me look, then?" and the obvious unvoiced reply I could see immediately rattle around in her head, it was almost comic in retrospect.

The words I hear now are the words I would expect any truly remorseful FWS to say. "I don't like going back there because I am ashamed of myself and what I did." But she will if we press down that conversation. She doesn't remember it right away but can dredge it out for me and talk to me about it. I will hear how ashamed and disgusted she is with herself, but she recognizes how much worse it is from the other end where I am sitting.

I think the thing that has made the most difference with this R, though, is that I do not feel the disrespect from her I felt during the A and for years before that. I am fucked up and broken, but she has made it clear I am the one in the right and she is the lucky one for being allowed to stay. Her words. Thank you for allowing me to stay in your life, she tells me now. For letting her keep our family.

Like WAL said, all the behaviors don't mean much besides a hand in the cookie jar if they don't have the accompanying emotion. That takes time and effort but then, I don't think those behaviors can be sustained mechanically for the duration without being real. Then again, I've been deceived pretty fucking viciously a couple times now.

I dunno. I think you can start to believe what your wife says when she hangs her head and shares her shame with you. Sorry for the TL:DR there, have a 4 year old yelling to go see Santa here and kind of rambling on.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7114 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
bfmvalentine
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Default  Posted: 9:38 AM, December 11th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello Guys
Ive been lurking since DDay in the beginning of August trying to find the courage to post my story, i guess for now I just have a couple questions. How do you guys deal with the triggers that still appear? are they daily? Do they affect your R? Does anyone know that OM was in their home and how did you deal with that? Thankfully NC is NOT an issue and that has made things better.

Thanks for all your help


Me BS 38
WW 35
DDAY 8/9/10
Married 7 years
1 5yr old special needs son

Posts: 94 | Registered: Dec 2010
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 10:16 AM, December 11th (Saturday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Welcome bfmvalentine.

How do you guys deal with the triggers that still appear?

If WW is the immediate cause of the trigger, I let her know. If I'm uncomfortable she gets to share in the fun. The unintential triggers I find myself ignoring more and more as time passes. For example: I used to immediately start snooping through her stuff for clues. I rarely do that any more.

Do they affect your R?

The major ones do if not dealt with quickly. I tend to get surly and sarcastic and started thinking about S/D.

Does anyone know that OM was in their home and how did you deal with that?

No, not as far as I know. WW didn't bring her strays home.

Share with us how you are dealing with things when you feel comfortable enough.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
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