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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men-Part 6 (Men only)
Blueeyedfella
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Member # 29944
Default  Posted: 1:52 PM, December 16th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My problem at this point is that after years of shouldering everything in this M and begging her for help, coupled with her A, I just dont really give a fuck at this point anymore. She wants me to validate her efforts and I can't muster up much of anything except indifference. I wonder if maybe I havent turned into some sort of narcisist. I feel empty and, well, numb.

Is it time to pack it up and leave this shit behind for good? I dont know. I just wonder whats wrong that I am truly this detached from everything.

Hurt: You certainly have put in the time to await an R!! Years! My WW and I have been separated since May-June (she moved out) and I've had a 180 since then. I have discovered that in doing the 180, for every month of it, it's more and more time I am accustomed to not needing the M anymore. I'll find myself indifferent at times. Does she tug at my strings sometimes? Yep! But, I think it's normal to distance yourself enough that you don't care about the M anymore b/c you're doing your thing. That's a bi-product of doing the 180 for an extensive period of time, imo. It's also the danger of a 180 - it reduces the chance of a R, imo.


Me: BH (Mid 30s)
Her: WW (Mid 30s)
Married 10 years, together 15.
2 kids under 4.
DDay: Jan-2010
4 false Rs with varying degrees of "trying" - same result
Dec-started mediation process.

Posts: 250 | Registered: Oct 2010
wifehad5
♂ Moderator
Member # 15162
Default  Posted: 2:17 PM, December 16th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BEF,

Is she allowing your kids to be around her OH? What does your lawyer have to say about that?


FBH - 42
FWW - 43 (BrokenRoad)
2 kids 7&12

The people you do your life with shape the life you live


Posts: 35392 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Michigan
Mr. Kite
♂ Member
Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 2:38 PM, December 16th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And she never offered me truth about things I hadn't discovered on my own

Why don't some WW's reveal all of the truth? You answered it yourself in the following quote.

She may have figured it would have been pointless for her own purposes, in that I would have ended up divorcing her anyway.

It's about self-preservation for both the M and the psyche--the sense of who she thinks she is, not who she really is. Bringing truth into that warped reality is threatening.

I have discovered that in doing the 180, for every month of it, it's more and more time I am accustomed to not needing the M anymore. I'll find myself indifferent at times.

Do we do this out of our own sense of self-preservation, to keep from being hurt again? Well duh!

Recently watched a movie called '12:01' about being caught in a time-loop that repeats each day(similar to 'Groundhog Day.') After being married for 25 years I can almost always predict what will happen next in our M. I make an attempt to be kind and she moves away for a time. I then ignore her and after a while she draws nearer to me. This cycle has been repeated endlessly over our time together with no exception. Unfortunately it seems that the only way to break that cycle is to leave and stay gone.

She is going to an IC again but I suspect she's not revealing much of anything about herself, only what a bastard I am. Last night the IC gave her a book on spiritual abuse.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
HurtingandLost
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Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 2:41 PM, December 16th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What in the world is spriritual abuse?

My WW coins terms like mental and emotional abuse. I always agree, and tell her she's pegged her abusive ways accurately. She gets the deer in the headlights look most times right before she proceeds to tell me what an asshole I am and how its all my fault....


holding out hope
UPDATE: Hope's Dead

Posts: 430 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: CO
Mr. Kite
♂ Member
Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 3:02 PM, December 16th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What in the world is spriritual abuse?

It is when someone attempts to manipulate others into doing what they want by dragging God and the Bible into it.

An example: The Bible says that a man is the authority in the home. So the man says to his wife, "you have to do what I say or else. See it says so right here in this scripture." But he leaves out his responsibility to treat the wife in a gentle, loving manner. It is manipulation by fear.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
HurtingandLost
♂ Member
Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 3:08 PM, December 16th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks Kite.


holding out hope
UPDATE: Hope's Dead

Posts: 430 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: CO
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 5:57 PM, December 16th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just an idea. It's a tough place hnl, when they're acting remorseful, or maybe it's real?

What would I do if I was the WS, with true remorse? I'd view your hard-earned detachment as just desserts, and love you as you go out the door if you need to.
As hard as this stuff is, it's harder for the WS (if they avoid the necessary 'hardness' and lessons now, it will be harder for them later).

iow, if her behaviors change (for the worse, descending into blaming crazy) based upon your reaction - she hasn't let go of the outcome, accepted her due, and is just manipulating by guessing at what you want her to do.

kite, I suspect your feelings regarding her spiritual abuse book are near the same as mine when my investigations found out she was buying 'he's just not that...'
(she also got an nlp - neuro lingustic programming book, to better learn how to manipulate I'm sure). I'm just sorry you're dealing with that, I really am. She wants to study-up on imagined problems rather than dealing with herself. A feint. A long, drawn-out navel-gazing useless feint, but...meh. Just detach from that crap. Don't get involved. "I'm sorry you feel that way." has an older brother. He said; "I know what you mean, I used to think that way, myself."

and hnl - you're not a Narcissist. N's do not have the capacity you - or anyone here - has shown with introspection, honesty, and analysis.
(you're not a G either though, so it evens out)


Posts: 6032 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
jasper
♂ Member
Member # 28168
Default  Posted: 7:53 PM, December 16th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My problem at this point is that after years of shouldering everything in this M and begging her for help, coupled with her A, I just dont really give a fuck at this point anymore. She wants me to validate her efforts and I can't muster up much of anything except indifference. I wonder if maybe I havent turned into some sort of narcisist. I feel empty and, well, numb.

Is it time to pack it up and leave this shit behind for good? I dont know. I just wonder whats wrong that I am truly this detached from everything.

Hurt: You certainly have put in the time to await an R!! Years! My WW and I have been separated since May-June (she moved out) and I've had a 180 since then. I have discovered that in doing the 180, for every month of it, it's more and more time I am accustomed to not needing the M anymore. I'll find myself indifferent at times. Does she tug at my strings sometimes? Yep! But, I think it's normal to distance yourself enough that you don't care about the M anymore b/c you're doing your thing. That's a bi-product of doing the 180 for an extensive period of time, imo. It's also the danger of a 180 - it reduces the chance of a R, imo.

BEF and Hurt, both statements really resonate with me. I've spent 8 months dealing with the fact that WW left me. I've gotten used to the fact that I don't have a marriage anymore. I'm doing pretty well now.

WW is delivering what someone (maybe Hurt&Lost) referred to as trickle remorse. For about a month, she's been hinting at R. Starting with hints about it, jealousy, and then gradually getting more aggressive. Now, she's basically saying "I fucked up, I don't know why I did it, I regret it, and I want you back."

The way I feel is kind of like "too little too late," but that trivializes the situation. The 180 helped me move on. Helped me realize that there were some serious issues with the M, and that I don't want it anymore.

If the remorse and desire to R had come immediately after d-day, there might have been a chance. Now, the chance is gone.

Recently, I've entertained the idea of R, because WW asked me to consider it. But the only reason I considered it at all was because of my DD. And I know the hollow M I'd have with my WW, wouldn't do my DD any good.

It's over. Too far gone. Too much baggage.


Posts: 696 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: New York
Mr. Kite
♂ Member
Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 10:13 PM, December 16th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

kite, I suspect your feelings regarding her spiritual abuse book are near the same as mine when my investigations found out she was buying 'he's just not that...'
(she also got an nlp - neuro lingustic programming book, to better learn how to manipulate I'm sure).

I would also throw in 'The Art of War' by Sun Tzu as a possibility. If Paris can figure it out...


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
Proview
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Member # 24215
Default  Posted: 1:56 AM, December 17th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is a problem in society they have asked of men; We are told to ignore the differences or face consequences. Yet in our own relationships, we get in trouble constantly because we didnít notice and do something different based on gender like hold open the door, pay for the date, change a diaper, change the oil, build something, buy jewelry.... on and on. AND we get in trouble because we did notice and said something that acknowledged things are different. We canít win because no matter what action we take, it can be offensive to someone of the opposite sex. We arenít giving enough, or are taking too much... Isnít that right in line with womenís rights when discussing men?


Society told my wife she deserves this; not part of it... ALL OF IT: She could be the princess, mother, and the CEO (with a good man behind the scenes cleaning the house and taking care of the babies too while being a successful provider and emotionally ďin touchĒ with her). She didnít have to earn it, she was entitled to be treated ďthis wayĒ by each and every man because weíre inherently evil and trying to put her down. They beat it into us boys too: You canít treat women that way, and need to get in touch with your feminine side. I couldnít be all that and get my own needs fulfilled, so I was the failure and why she had the affair. So youíll have to excuse me when I generalize. I believe womenís liberation sold a fantasy that women can take only the good parts and shouldnít ever have to compromise or listen to a man bash her gender. But what about the guys and their entitlement to have a voice where we can be strong men? Is it any wonder we clump together doing manly things women donít normally like... thatís where we talk openly and unfiltered.


GREATEST POST TO DATE.

Well Said!


I may not agree with everything said but these few words right here struck a chord with me and resonated within me being a man and watching societys push of womens rights under the flag of equality..and steam roll over mens rights.

i still cant see how it is equatible to be a millionaire prior to marriage then a woman marries for 10 years or less and gets half in the divorce. How is that fair? And people are constantly wondering why marriage is on the decline on the US...pretty soon itll be like japan where women cant find a man willing to marry them at all. I love my wife, but other than a piece of paper, I can not see why marriage benefits men at all anymore. Religion aside, Someone with more insight give me a better view of why marriage is better for men again as opposed to staying single, free and out of divorce court. looking for real answers here.


Posts: 81 | Registered: May 2009 | From: AZ transplant
SourCherryDrops
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Member # 25883
Default  Posted: 2:33 AM, December 17th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@jasper, Im glad youve finally been able to reach a decision, I know it must have been hard for you over the last few weeks...second guessing yourself... time to sit down, poor out a beer and enjoy the peace of mind of knowing what path your on...

@proview, In my home country its almost irrelevant if you get married or not now. The laws about shared property are the same for couples that have lived together for several years as they are for married couples.... although if you dont put assets into a communual collective then they remain yours regardless....here where im living the assets become joint upon marriage unless a pre-nup exists, i like the version in my home country better.... All i know is that assuming i have made any sort of financial recovery before i get on the merry-go-round again ill be getting a pre-nup, regardless of where im living... it might not hold up, but its gotta be worth tryin.


As for the 180, I personally dont see it as the panacea tool that it is so often espoused as in the JFO section... a newbie arrieves, and irregardless of the situation you will see them getting advice to do the 180.... For me, its a tool to rebuild yourself to make you stronger, so that you can stand up for yourself, and survive regardless of where the M is heading. It also helps isolate you from the crazy making shit that so many WS's put on. If the WS really is trying to R, trying to show remorse then the full 180 is couter-productive IMHO.

Some aspects of it can be continued, but for R to suceed you do need to engage with your WS, both day to day, and also emotionally. Otherwise you end up in limbo land.

For me it comes down to two questions.

Do i trust my WS enough that they are being honest in their attempt to R?

Am i strong enough to survive the trauma if it fails, if so am i willing to risk it?


Me BS 37, Her STBX 34, 1*ONS, 1*EA 1*PA/EA, 2*PA
Heading for D after 9 mths of R

Posts: 1468 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Europe
OnceInALifetime
♂ Member
Member # 26023
Default  Posted: 8:56 AM, December 17th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Proview, I can never resist a discussion about support payments. I'm quite bitter about it.

Technically, it's the breadwinner who gets legally torched in a divorce, whether it be the man or the woman. Of course, in today's society, the great majority of the time that's the man. But I'd wager that most men would not want any support from their XW, even if they could win that in a divorce, because society has taught us, correctly, that we should be responsible for making our way in life.

I'm bitter because my XW feels *entitled* to an equal or greater standard of living than my own, even after we divorced due to her betrayals.

I really believe that there's a princess-like attitude running rampant in society, princesses who believe they are entitled to be treated like dependents their whole lives, regardless of whether they're still married or not.

You'll hear one rationalization after another, often backed by state law. "The kids MUST have the same standard of living at both homes." I'll agree that you don't want them living in a dive at one place and a mansion in the other. But making them equal? That's what my state does, and I don't buy this moral imperative. My XW, with the moral backing of my state, feels justified in having a claim on a portion of every penny that I earn. This division of salary is a disincentive for *either* of us to earn more money.

My favorite one is "Each spouse is entitled to continue to enjoy, as much as possible, the same standard of living after divorce as when they were married." Entitled? Really? Get something for nothing? WHY?!! This one doesn't have anything to do with children. In my state, this is state law! Alimony equalizes the standard of living between the spouses, and it is for life, always, even when the marriage is short. Even after the payor retires (which means very often the payor cannot afford to retire). And get this, if the payor remarries, the new spouse's wages can be factored in to determine the proper alimony amount. Can anyone even begin to justify all of this? This practice was created when women couldn't find well paying jobs, and it is still in practice. It is a very generous form of state-dictated welfare, except that 1) the state doesn't pay; the ex-spouse has to, simply because, well, he's there (OK, there's this reasoning that one spouse forever sacrificed potential future earnings by becoming a full time homemaker, and propped up the other spouse by doing so. In that case some temporary alimony is in order, but it's nuts to say the monetary value of the sacrifice just happens to be the difference between the divorced couple's income. Just because you married a doctor doesn't mean you sacrificed a career in medicine. Also, the idea of one spouse "propping up" the other's career can be discounted just by noting all the families with two successful working parents, which is pretty much a necessity in today's economic climate.) and 2) the recipient does not have to prove that they are making good efforts to increase earnings, and 3) the duration is for the life of the payor (yes, I said life; retirement is no excuse to stop paying your X), and 4) the amount to be paid is randomly (in my opinion) directly proportional to the income of the payor, so that each side enjoys roughly the same standard of living.

Many divorced women still feel entitled to be treated as dependents, forever, the proof of this statement being that many divorced women ARE being treated as dependents. It's disgusting; and it's state-dictated slavery. I'm in favor of temporary alimony to pay for education, pay to help get a formerly non-working spouse on their feet. But at some point a single adult must become self reliant.

During the M, we were *supposedly* equal contributors to the well-being of the entire home. Now, after the divorce, the load is entirely upon me. Completely unbalanced. I say I'm divorced, but I'm not. I'm her work slave. She gets big fat weekly checks from me, and I get NOTHING from her. Not even a thanks. She's a princess, why should she thank me for what she's entitled to?

[This message edited by OnceInALifetime at 11:27 AM, December 17th (Friday)]


BH, now divorced

Posts: 3012 | Registered: Oct 2009
HurtingandLost
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Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 9:36 AM, December 17th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Many divorced women still feel entitled to be treated as dependents, forever, the proof of this statement being that many divorced women ARE being treated as dependents. It's disgusting; and it's state-dictated slavery. I'm in favor of temporary alimony to pay for education, pay to help get a formerly non-working spouse on their feet. But at some point a single adult must become self reliant.

During the M, we were *supposedly* equal contributors to the well-being of the entire home. Now, after the divorce, the load is entirely upon me. Completely unbalanced. I say I'm divorced, but I'm not. I'm her work slave. She gets big fat weekly checks from me, and I get NOTHING from her. Not even a thanks. She's a princess, why should she thank me for what she's entitled to?


AMEN OnceinaLifetime. The entitlement monkey will beat you down and then continue to kick you while you're down in hopes that you will continue to fund state sponsored welfare. The laws are similar in the state of California.


holding out hope
UPDATE: Hope's Dead

Posts: 430 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: CO
BrokenHead
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Member # 24218
Default  Posted: 11:11 AM, December 17th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@OnceInALifeTime:

This is what I am facing. The sad thing is I understand as SAHM for 15 yrs, WW does deserve support for some period of time. This I believe would allow her to get "on her feet" and become an "independent" single mother over a period of time.

However, I think 2 things should be *required* of her as well:

1. Since I am still functioning as "provider" she should function as "home maker" and until she has a fulltime job which means doing my laundry, shopping and cleaning.

2. She should be _required_ to get a fulltime job. She has an MA in education and in a few years she'd likely be able to be making 1/2 of what I am making and starting to support herself.

If my obligation to her continues to exist I don't see why her obligation to me should not exist. Plus I know she has no intention of going back to work as long as she can make ends meet on whatever the courts decide her alimony is.

If WW saw fit to meet those unenforceable requirements I'd say things would be fair and just.

Otherwise I am just a pimped out slave to someone that has no intention of taking responsibility of their own life as they can get away with it.



Posts: 144 | Registered: Jun 2009
HurtingandLost
♂ Member
Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 11:16 AM, December 17th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Brokenhead:

Otherwise I am just a pimped out slave to someone that has no intention of taking responsibility of their own life as they can get away with it.

Hell, That's me in the M!


holding out hope
UPDATE: Hope's Dead

Posts: 430 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: CO
OnceInALifetime
♂ Member
Member # 26023
Default  Posted: 11:18 AM, December 17th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BrokenHead,

If a woman defines her financial "career" as being dependent upon another, then after divorce, this woman should be considered unemployed and forced to find a new "employer" (i.e. husband). During the search, "unemployment compensation" could be provided for a time via alimony. If the woman cannot find a new "employer" for her home making skills, well, she's failed in that career and it's time to find a new one.

Sound crass? Well, it was the woman's decision to engage in this profession.

[This message edited by OnceInALifetime at 11:20 AM, December 17th (Friday)]


BH, now divorced

Posts: 3012 | Registered: Oct 2009
wifehad5
♂ Moderator
Member # 15162
Default  Posted: 11:31 AM, December 17th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OIAL,

What state do you live in?


FBH - 42
FWW - 43 (BrokenRoad)
2 kids 7&12

The people you do your life with shape the life you live


Posts: 35392 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Michigan
OnceInALifetime
♂ Member
Member # 26023
Default  Posted: 11:56 AM, December 17th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

wifehad5, answered in a PM.


BH, now divorced

Posts: 3012 | Registered: Oct 2009
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 12:42 PM, December 17th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Dude, you need to reconcile with your wife, move to Indiana and then divorce her here.

We don't have alimony in Indiana...except for infidelity.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Merlin
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Member # 30221
Default  Posted: 1:11 PM, December 17th (Friday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Duplicate

[This message edited by Merlin at 1:15 PM, December 17th (Friday)]


"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." D. H. Lawrence

Her: WW/56 Me: BS/62, 24yrs M
3 great kids, now 22, 20, 17 b,b,g
D-Day 8/14/08, D 1/13/11


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