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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS- Part 5
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 4:56 PM, December 29th (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

lostrightnow,

check your PM's


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6048 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 7:54 AM, December 30th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

lostrightnow -

Honestly, I don't think either BS nor WS can commit to R two weeks after D-Day. We commit to the process of R, but neither are in a position to make guarantees that things will work out. The best either side can offer is that they are "all in" to the process of trying to heal, and will see where things take them.

In the early going for a WS, it's about focusing on a few basic things. It starts with whether the WS is willing to hold to the basic tenants of healing. NC with the AP, total transparency in all communication methods, and IC to start figuring out why they took the step of having an A. From what you're sharing, I think the reason you think he's not doing enough is because he's not meeting the basics of being totally transparent.

For now, there can be no secrets on his side. He cannot hope to rebuild any sense of trust with you when there are things he is keeping hidden from you. His reaction to your question about what he was looking at online is not unexpected for someone still in their fog, but that doesn't make it right.

A WS is most likely to change when directly faced with consequences for wrong actions. So the bottom line is that if he is hiding something from you, what is the "price he will pay" for that action? Make it clear it is not acceptable. If he continues, consider going into a 180 mode to protect yourself. It will soon become clear whether or not he will make the choice to be "all in" to healing the M or not.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 8:51 AM, December 30th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I read something in another thread with a link about lost loves and nc not working or something (which isn't exactly what the article said once I read it), but it just got me thinking about how does the WS go from loving the AP to having no feelings for AP?

I've posted this in other forums, but thought I'd get the best response here.

So, for those of you who had a significant emotional connection to your AP, how did the transformation take place post DDay?

I would love for my H to tell me that it really wasn't love, it was something else, he just was very mixed up and thought it was love at the time.

But in my case, my H will to this day deny he loved OW, despite having said it to her (repeatedly) and having shown it through his actions. (Not just the sex, but in other things - the most painful being that he called her at 1:30am after dropping me off at the emergency room while I was in labor to tell her his wife was having a baby, but there are plenty of examples that show what appears to have been a truly significant emotional connection.)
My H has never looked back on the A and said - I was in some kind of fog, etc. that made me engage in this kind of obsessive relationship with OW, he's never looked back at OW and said she wasn't what I thought she was at the time. In fact, a month after DDay, when I found the secret phone and I thought we were going to break it off, it was pretty clear to me that he was going to go back to her.

Can anyone shed some light on this?
Thanking you in advance and Happy New Year's!


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 9:28 AM, December 30th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The transformation involves a time, the willingness to look at that connection and why it wasn't strong enough for the WS to leave.

Time - it has to be worked through. Some can identify what was going on more quickly than others. Some may think they are going through it quickly, but they are just squashing everything down and not really dealing with it. So, the WS has to be patient with themselves.

Willingness to look at the feelings during the A - There is a lot of talk that the A is a fantasy, that it isn't real. I believe that since we all lived through it, it was real. We all feel the pain and to dismiss it as fantasy leaves the WS confused as to how they did what they did. By denying what the reality was at that time, we are ignoring our own attempts at connecting with our feelings. So recognizing it, putting everything in its place and being honest about that work is important.

Why we couldn't leave - There are a few things in this one. While I think there is a reality we live in during the A, it is only partial. The reality of the AP is only the good side. It isn't the "morning breath/able to hear your spouse in the bathroom and still be attracted to them" kind of reality. I think WS recognize that to some degree. Then there is the recognition that our M isn't what we have talked ourselves into believing it was (the re-writing). There is an understanding at some level that the things we think are bad in the M are partially, if not fully, our fault. And there is also the realization of the pain that will be inflicted on many people if we let the partial reality of the A win out.

In my case, with time, I have been able to see some of the manipulation that went on. I fall into the "lost love" category. Back when I was 18, I didn't process anything and had no way to find out what had happened. I moved on and forgot about it. 20 years later I learned what happened and a switch flipped. Now another three and a half years later, I can recognize the MOW lied to me about what happened years ago. There are still other things I have to work through on that, but I am doing it.

I hope your WH finds the ability to look inside himself.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6048 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 9:45 AM, December 30th (Thursday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you Baxter for your thoughtful response.


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
roccodom
♀ Member
Member # 19714
Default  Posted: 6:36 PM, January 2nd (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am 2 years into the process of R. My FWH has not been perfect but has made a tremendous effort. I guess that's why what has recently happened has caught me by such surprise.

Prior to DDay and probably before the A - my husband would be called "emotionally unavailable". Always defensive - never responsible. I was always to blame (don't worry - I didn't buy it).

Since DDay and IC and MC - he has really changed. He is able to see his behavior and take responsibility for it.

Well - a couple of weeks ago - we went to his work party and I triggered like crazy - it really caught me off guard. I really behaved rudely (cause of my triggering). I apologized to him but he still berated me - brutally! Screaming at me.

In trying to discuss this the past few weeks - he has been defensive - rude - blaming me.

I have tried to talk to him several times that his inconsistancy in dealing with me and my triggers sets me back because I don't feel secure. I wonder why he is blowing up at me. It also reminds me of his behavior during the affair.

Today - I tried to tell him that I did not feel he understand where in the process I was if he was going to berate me for it. He told me that he had tried for two years ad he has done everything and it's never good enough and he has no sympathy left. That I should stop using him as a therapist and go see one. This was him and that's all he's got. He said I have held it over his head for two years - I watch his every move - yada - yada yada.

I am so stunned that I asked him after we had a break whether he meant all the things he said. He said no - some of it was unfair. I feel beaten up.

What the hell is going on??????


BS - me (45) WS - him (45)
married 16 yrs (DS 11yrs, DD 9yrs)
#1 PA - DDay 12/97
#2 PA DDay 5/08
#3 PA DDay 2/12
Trying R
Buddhism teaches that a craving for things outside ourselves causes an unhappy and pointless search for security.


Posts: 789 | Registered: May 2008 | From: MO
Blueeyedfella
♂ Member
Member # 29944
Default  Posted: 12:19 PM, January 3rd (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

First time popping in this thread and I'm encouraged at the honest back and forth. Kudos to WS's.

My WW is living with OH and works with him. We've been separated since April and living separate since June. My WW has called me a few times (drunk) the past several months wanting to come back bc her OH is a jerk. I hate these calls. She is still in a fog but still, till this day, gives me the "I'm still confused" cake eating two step. I've been doing a 180 since the summer and know that I am getting further and further away from R with each passing week.

For you WS's in R or already R, at what point did it actually sink in with you that the A/OS was a huge mistake and began the road to recovery with your BS?

I was willing to R up through 4 months back but now, I'm not so sure anymore. My WW has even commented about why I never begged her to come home, scaling talk mountains to woo her back, etc. I told her i shouldn't have to do that - you need to do that on your own.

Anyway, now I'm just rambling.

Tia.


Me: BH (Mid 30s)
Her: WW (Mid 30s)
Married 10 years, together 15.
2 kids under 4.
DDay: Jan-2010
4 false Rs with varying degrees of "trying" - same result
Dec-started mediation process.

Posts: 250 | Registered: Oct 2010
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 3:25 PM, January 3rd (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Allgoodnamesgone -

So, for those of you who had a significant emotional connection to your AP, how did the transformation take place post DDay?

This can be one of the hardest things for a BS to understand about us. There is tangible evidence (emails, texts, etc.) filled with "I love you" and terms of endearment. And yet the WS says they never loved the OP?

It seems there are only two paths. Either they did love the OP and they are lying to the BS. Or they were selfishly lying to the OP to get what they wanted, meaning they are capable of lying to their BS anyway. Either way, it's a lose-lose for the WS.

The path I followed was actually a third path - one of self deception. As I got further and further over my head in the relationship, I lost more and more sight of reality. I convinced my own brain that I had fallen head over heels for this person, when in reality I was reacting to being drawn to something temporary that was filling a gap within myself (primarily positive affirmation that offset my own low value of myself).

As NC was established and I was able to create more distance between myself and the A, I was able to see through the ways I had fooled myself into thinking things were different than they really were.

Months after D-Day, I was finally able to understand that I was drawn to the validation, not the specific person giving it to me. That's how I was able to understand that I did not truly love the OP.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 3:33 PM, January 3rd (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Roccodom -

What the hell is going on??????

There is no doubt that R can be a grueling process for a WS. While it may not show early on, those of us committed to it work our tails off to try to make things right. So after a couple of years, to see that despite all the effort we've put in the damage to our BS's security is still there is scary. It can make us feel that no matter how we live the rest of our lives, we are only a poor choice of words away from losing all we have worked to hang on to.

Was your BH right to lash out? No, of course not. And I'd say if he feels you need to go to IC to work through your triggers, he's deflecting a bit for the fact he needs to work through the anger he processed so poorly.

But part of this are the bumps we will go through for as long as we remain together with our BS. And it is a consequence of the actions we undertook.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 3:40 PM, January 3rd (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Blueeyedfella -

F

or you WS's in R or already R, at what point did it actually sink in with you that the A/OS was a huge mistake and began the road to recovery with your BS?

D-Day was a pretty strong slap in my face to shake me from where I was headed.

More important though was the stand my BW took. After the initial shock settled slightly for her, she was very direct with me. If we were to have any chance at R, I was all in or all out. I was to call a counselor - I would choose whether it was marital or legal.

No trial S. No break away. We either worked together toward healing or the M was over.

If you want the cake eating mentality to stop, you have to take the option clearly off the table. If at this point you are even willing to entertain R, you need to establish firm conditions. You cannot choose her path for her. She needs to pick which way she's going to go. But you can state R requires her to be back with you full time, NC with the OP, IC to fix whatever is broken within her and full transparency in all her communications. And if there's anything else you need you can state that too. IF she refuses that gift, you have your answer, and R will not be possible.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Blueeyedfella
♂ Member
Member # 29944
Default  Posted: 9:46 PM, January 3rd (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

listening:

If you want the cake eating mentality to stop, you have to take the option clearly off the table. If at this point you are even willing to entertain R, you need to establish firm conditions.

I did this back in Feb. Told her she had to NC (but knowing that she worked with him, there are limits to that), leave her job, and start MC with me. She didn't do the first two and we did MC. Of course, that did not work so we S.

But, at the end of the day, it comes down to having the desire/vinegar to open that R window a crack and try one more time. I don't know if I can do that yet.

anyhow, thanks again...


Me: BH (Mid 30s)
Her: WW (Mid 30s)
Married 10 years, together 15.
2 kids under 4.
DDay: Jan-2010
4 false Rs with varying degrees of "trying" - same result
Dec-started mediation process.

Posts: 250 | Registered: Oct 2010
MyJourney2Me
♀ Member
Member # 30075
Default  Posted: 4:26 AM, January 4th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Blueeyedfella: I hope I am not too inexperienced to be posting a reply. Being 5months from Dday, let me offer my experience. My BBF relentlessly pursued me which made me feel I was doing everything to please him, which I know is what caused me to run further. In my opinion, the reason why your WW is just doing the phone calls 'thing' is because you are available to listen to her whining. If she reaches the point where she has to make a decision, you woll know for sure what she wants. You yourself know that you have not closed the window to R but she doesn't have to know that. Being there for her to call and complain means that she knows you are still there for her hence the very outrageous comment that you should be wooing her. Always know where you stand so that if she decides to reconcile you can quickly give your terms and conditions but she can only come to a decision if you stop being there for her.


Hope I made some sense.


Me: WS 23yrs

Complicated mad hatter situation

Status: With all the Ddays, lets just say the clock was set back to Jan 2012.


Posts: 142 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: Cradle of mankind
roccodom
♀ Member
Member # 19714
Default  Posted: 12:32 PM, January 4th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks listeningclosely -

I actually read your response to my FWH and he said that it hit it right on the mark.

I appreciate all your help.


BS - me (45) WS - him (45)
married 16 yrs (DS 11yrs, DD 9yrs)
#1 PA - DDay 12/97
#2 PA DDay 5/08
#3 PA DDay 2/12
Trying R
Buddhism teaches that a craving for things outside ourselves causes an unhappy and pointless search for security.


Posts: 789 | Registered: May 2008 | From: MO
bfmvalentine
♂ Member
Member # 30358
Default  Posted: 12:24 PM, January 5th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello folks
Hoping some of you can help me understand why some WS's tend to protect their AP? Am i wrong in thinking that if they are truly remorsefull they will also have the feelings of hatred and horrible memories about the AP and the affair that the BS does?


Me BS 38
WW 35
DDAY 8/9/10
Married 7 years
1 5yr old special needs son

Posts: 94 | Registered: Dec 2010
Hope24
♀ Member
Member # 9344
Default  Posted: 12:35 PM, January 5th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

To bfmvalentine:

Hoping some of you can help me understand why some WS's tend to protect their AP?

There are some WS who continue to have feelings for the the AP after d-day, and even after NC has been established. Protecting the AP is typical behavior of a WS still in the fog.

Am i wrong in thinking that if they are truly remorsefull they will also have the feelings of hatred and horrible memories about the AP and the affair that the BS does?

Anger toward the AP is stage some WS go through. It tends to be mis-directed anger towards ourselves, however. Indifference is what we all strive for. Once a WS hits the indifference state it means the AP has truly lost all power over the WS and that's a very good place to be.


She packed up her potential and all she had learned and headed out to change a few things.

Posts: 7603 | Registered: Jan 2006 | From: Poolside
Honest1
♂ Member
Member # 29976
Default  Posted: 1:24 PM, January 5th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

IMO A WS can never be remorseful until they come out of the fog.


My question is besides d-Day what other events typically snaps WS to come out of the fog regardless of whether the state of the M is in R,S,or D?

Can remorse/fog lifting come much later down the road or never at all?

There are some WS who continue to have feelings for the the AP after d-day, and even after NC has been established. Protecting the AP is typical behavior of a WS still in the fog.


BS 49
WW 47
SPa May 3rd 2010
D-day Oct 6th 2010 WS asked for R
D-day2 Oct 17th 2010 WS breaks NC
2 Kids ages 5 & 8
Separated 11/07/2010

Posts: 135 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: Midwest
lostrightnow
♀ Member
Member # 30428
Default  Posted: 3:32 PM, January 5th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am wondering how many of you ws started out being addicted to porn? I have been reading so much and it seems that there is a connection. My ws has had a porn addiction for years, I just never really thought of it as an addiction and more of something I simply didn't understand. But now I am wondering if this may be part of the reason he had the A.

Posts: 85 | Registered: Dec 2010
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 7:53 AM, January 6th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

bfmvalentine -

Hoping some of you can help me understand why some WS's tend to protect their AP?

Hope offers one reason, but there is another. To admit how bad the OP is means admitting to ourselves how low we sank by entering into an affair. In part, the self protection mechanism goes off as we try to find some shred of reason for why we did what we did. If we outright admit the OP was awful, it means further degrading ourselves in the process.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 8:06 AM, January 6th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Honest1 -

My question is besides d-Day what other events typically snaps WS to come out of the fog regardless of whether the state of the M is in R,S,or D?

In my case, there were two very distinct events that remain strongest in my mind. D-Day was one, and seeing the pain in my BW was enough ultimately to get me to commit to the process of R.

But my de-fogging came about five months later. I had calls on my cell to a work colleague who lived in the same area as xMOW. This was someone who had mentored me for a while and was going through a tough time herself. So the calls were after hours and triggered my BW badly. I had to pull up the proof that the number was for my colleague (I finally located it in a company directory for her), but the panic and pain she went through that night was enough to shake off any remaining fog I had.

So yes, the fog can clear later on down the road. In my case, about 5 months after D-Day.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
poopylala
♀ Member
Member # 30119
Default  Posted: 9:59 AM, January 6th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My wbf seems to have just come out of the fog. Last night he admitted he realized there's an extremely real chance of losing me and he wasn't trying before but he really is now. On Tuesday I confronted him about some lies and he continued to lie about them until I gave away that I put a keylogger on his computer so why was he still lying? Anyways I told him Monday after we go to MC is when I'll decide if I even want to give us another chance or if I'm through. He told me last night he was so scared that by Tuesday he would know he lost me. I told him that he ultimately has the power to show me he wants this and that my decision is based on him and what he does/says. He confessed a lot more last night too, like why he turned to video games and online people. He confessed OP was someone he met through a game, originally he told me they were friends from school many years before. I told him about TT and how its not the ugly truth that hurts so much as its all the lies and deception that hurt the most. I'm giving him the chance to confess all at MC and if he does I'm leaning towards another chance. If he doesn't then I'm out.

My question is, when you first came out of the fog, were you completely open about everything all at once? Did you correct any lies or finish telling all the truths immediately? Did you take time to answer it all? How do I know he really is out of the fog?

[This message edited by poopylala at 9:47 AM, January 8th (Saturday)]


BGF (me)- 24
FWBF (him)- 24
in a LTR

forgiven and in R :)

"To err is human.
To forgive,
divine"


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