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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS- Part 5
mactruck
♀ Member
Member # 29791
Default  Posted: 2:25 PM, January 6th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

To Allgoodnamesgone about rules of socializing.
Early after dday we estiblished rules of solicalizing. My A began as a result of traveling and drinking WAY too much.

Rule #1 - Under NO circumstances am I to drink at any company function. It was a lot the swallow at first. But since I also wanted to improve my image at work it wasn't that bad. I'm lucky that we only have a Christmas party during the day and not at night. I would be on the street if I rolled in at 4:30am at this point.
Rule #2 Under no circumstances am I to hang out at bars with girlfriends. Married women do not belong in bars without their spouses. I know that sounds crazy and harss, but I do agree with it.

Rule #3 anyone who knew about the A is no longer a friend. These people whether they "sopported" the lie or not are no longer friends. There theory here is that if they didn't support it they should have told him and done something anything to stop me. There were only two friends that knew. One helped me hide it and is no longer part of our lives. The other never supported me, but we did go to bars together. Not a good friend to have.

Again to AllGoodnames...
Defogging. Very different for everyone. ListenClosley hit the nail for me. I even just wrote about it in the wayward forum.
I began to get out of the fog a tiny bit before the A even ended. That helped me a lot. During the A I thought for sure I cared about him. I knew then just as I know now I never loved him. I never said the words nor did he. But I was convinced I cared. I deceived myself into thinking I cared and he cared. Now that I see things for what they really were I know he didn't give a rats ass. I certianly don't give a rats ass about him now. But I sure did think I did at the time.

The obsession part I know all about. It's frightens me to know how obesses I got. I've never been that way in my life. My anaology is that of a drug addict. They know drugs kill you. But the need for the fix is so overpowering. They need more. I needed more. I wanted to feel desired. I wanted him to find me pretty, smart, skinny, etc...
It was all about external validation.

How did I defog? My BH did it for me. He pointed out every lie I told myself. It helped that the OM dropped me like a sack of potatoes as soon as my H called him.

Every lie I told myself druing that time was unraveled. I told my H everything. All conversations I could remember, all events, everything. He gave me the "male" perspective. That's when I realized how much of a losey person he was and how cheap I was.

Once you view yourself in that cheap filthy light it's hard to stay in the fog.

As I posted eariler, I'm angry with him. But I realize that I'm really angry with myself. It's easier for the human mind to deflect anger toweards someone else rather than on yourself. He took advantage of me and I allowed it. That really pisses me off!

As far as protecting the AP. If they are doing this they are still in the fog. I did it a little in the beginning.It was more about protecting my fantasy world that I had created for myself than really the AP.

I defended the AP very little even when we were at the beginning. I went along with anything my H suggested. I believed once that the AP was a good person (for example) and said so to my H (hurtful BTW). My H said what was good about him? He is a cheater. Couldn;t argue that point... It was conversations like this that helped.

As for cake-eating, it wasn't an option. I either got my shit together and fast or I was out. He pulled out all the stops even threathen to arrest me for breech of contract. Yes, in some states its a crime.

I was snapped out of fantasy and into reality very quick.

The other question was how do you go from loving to not loving the AP? Easy... As much as the WS demolized the BS the WS now has to demonlize the AP. But it's really not demolizing its truth seeking.

Was the AP a good person? NO, they had an A with a married person or they too were married. That does not make them good.

Was the AP an honest person? NO, they lied to the WS and they lied to their BS (assuming they were married too).

You have to pick it all apart. I was lucky and my H did that for me. Crawled up my rear end and stayed there until "I Got it". I got it all right. I saw the truth.

Roccdom-
Dealing w triggers and your WS. I've been really supportive of my BH when he triggers. We are more than a year out and it's been a rollercoaster. I'm sorry that he didn't handle your trigger well. I know I hate to be reminded how much I hurt my BH. I know it everyday in my heart. I don't tell him as much as I should. I have days when I do say something and other days when I don;t. After so many LONG conversations and hurtful words I really never want to talk about it again. Is this healthy? NO, I know that. But I dread talking about it again. Every time we talk about it I have to relive those horrible memories. The memories of what I've done and what I did to him and my kids. It makes my sick (literally).

I will say I do NOT ever get defensive about checking up on me. I am always willing to hand over the phone. I provide him information. He has never searched or dug, but I give me copies of stuff. I take pictures. I send me my contacts. I remind him of my passwords.

I want to do whatever it takes to reesablish trust.

I made up my mind a while ago that I wanted my H and I was going to do everything in my power to win him back. BUT I was going to do it honestly and openingly. I put it in my head that I would NOT fail. Having that mentality has really helped in tough times.

I'm sorry to all BS for their pain. It is unbearable. God Speed.


There is no spell check. My typing is horrible... Therefore I apologize for errors.

I pray everyday for forgiveness.


Posts: 149 | Registered: Oct 2010
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 2:47 PM, January 6th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Mactruck: thank you for your response. Unfortunately, I have discovered a pic of my H and OW sitting alone at a table at the Xmas party (when he came home at 4:30am), so my concern about his socializing outside my comfort zone is no longer an issue for me as I'm throwing in the towel. Hopefully, the posts here will help someone else.
Thanks again.


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
AttemptStrength
♀ Member
Member # 27947
Default  Posted: 2:57 PM, January 6th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WS,

Did you ever think about your spouse while you were having sex with the AP? Not the 'I shouldn't be doing this' buzz in the back ground, but wishing it was your BS you were with?


BS me
WS him x2 A's
1 autistic DS

I'd never have spent the money on a wedding dress if I knew I was just going to a costume party.


Posts: 1991 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: Wisconsin
manAscending
♂ Member
Member # 26919
Default  Posted: 4:28 PM, January 6th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@AttemptStrength

Did you ever think about your spouse while you were having sex with the AP?
Aside from the buzz, no, I never wished it was my spouse there instead of the OW when we had sex. There was much shame and much guilt, and I tried to not think of my wife. Of course, that had the reverse effect.

The compartmentalisation made the sex very conscious, when you'd normally think that sex and thought would be antithetical. Thinking about my wife--that buzz in the background--ran rudely with the concept of how Hollywood portrays a lot of affair sex (e.g., as fun, an escape, or what have you). The mental shame and the physical pleasure were like oil and water. Together, they ushered in an extremely unpleasant degree of objectivity to what I was doing.

Since that was my mindset, I never consciously wished that it was my wife there instead. If she would have seen what I was doing at the time, I would have withered and died. And if it was her there from the get-go, I never would have been in the overconscious mindset of trying to shove her from my head.


Posts: 1648 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Ontario
manAscending
♂ Member
Member # 26919
Default  Posted: 5:56 PM, January 6th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@lostrightnow

I am wondering how many of you ws started out being addicted to porn? [N]ow I am wondering if this may be part of the reason [my WS] had the A.
That was me. Addicted to porn since adolescence. How it contributed to my willingness to cheat--well, even after a year of IC, I'm still hashing through that.

I wouldn't say that I had an A directly because of the porn. I never looked at porn and thought, "I'm going to find an AP who'll do _that_ with me." It was much more subtle than that.

Overexposure to porn nuanced my views about normalcy with regards to sex. So for example, although not everyone goes around having romps in their workplace, I'm certain that porn had a role to play in me allowing myself to say that having sex at work wasn't all that un-normal. Maybe a good way of putting it is that my addiction to porn made me somewhat susceptible to believing in ways of relating that simply aren't true. While porn didn't cause me to have an A, it sure as hell helped create wacked ideas about the nature and role of sex in (and ultimately outside of) love relationships.


Posts: 1648 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Ontario
mactruck
♀ Member
Member # 29791
Default  Posted: 7:35 AM, January 7th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Allgoodnamesgone-
I'm terribly sorry that you are going through this. I wish you the best in your recovery. I wish for stregth for you and happiness.


There is no spell check. My typing is horrible... Therefore I apologize for errors.

I pray everyday for forgiveness.


Posts: 149 | Registered: Oct 2010
Honest1
♂ Member
Member # 29976
Default  Posted: 12:20 PM, January 7th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

listeningclosely,

Thanks for responding to my question which was

My question is besides d-Day what other events typically snaps WS to come out of the fog regardless of whether the state of the M is in R,S,or D?

Can remorse/fog lifting come much later down the road or never at all?

As a BH I have been frustrated with my WW's deep fog, her inability to NC, and total lack of remorse. I don't know my current WW, the one I loved is gone. The A and this Fog really took shape in May 2010; that is when I noticed my WW lies, detachment to me, and the need for constant contact with mOM ) My WW finally admitted to PA in Oct 2010.

We are going through D proceedings because I want to move on. Last night for the 1st time my WW calls me sobbing and crying and tells me how very sorry she is for everything she did to me.

I guess I got my answer to my remorse/fog lifting question I posted here. Not sure when/if I can ever forgive her, probably with time I will someday.

I wished she would have expressed remorse months earlier, maybe we might of had a chance to R. But after 6 months of only myself wanting to R and 8 months of no remorse from my WW; it was enough. Unfortunately the A had pretty much destroyed our M


BS 49
WW 47
SPa May 3rd 2010
D-day Oct 6th 2010 WS asked for R
D-day2 Oct 17th 2010 WS breaks NC
2 Kids ages 5 & 8
Separated 11/07/2010

Posts: 135 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: Midwest
LostOnVineStreet
♀ Member
Member # 30216
Default  Posted: 1:59 PM, January 7th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have some questions about, well, questions. WBF and I have agreed to only have Q&A sessions about the affair during MC sessions. He says he doesn't feel "safe" doing them at home. That would be fine, except that because of the holidays, we've only seen MC a few times and have focused on other affair-related issues during those sessions. I feel I can't truly start R until I have my answers, but he seems to be stalling. I don't know whether that's intentional or not. I should note that I sort of prefer having our Q&A sessions with MC, since I feel he's less likely to lie with another set of ears around and that she often asks WBF to clarify some of his more amorphous answers. Should I tell him I need answers now, not slowly revealed over a number of months? Should I 180 if he refuses? How did you handle this with your BS?

Also, WBF refers to our Q&A sessions as "interrogations." I've told him that I am not asking these questions to crucify him or make him feel bad, I just need to know what happened so that I can deal with it. I am completely unemotional during these sessions and always thank him for answering my questions. Yet he still sees the Q&A as a sort of punishment. How do I convince him the Q&A sessions aren't meant to be hurtful to him?

Finally, I've uncovered some evidence (texts, voicemails, e-mails and stuff from both OWs' blogs and dating site profiles) that indicated the relationships, particularly the relationship with OW #2, were far more serious and emotionally involved than he says. Really, it's the continued lies and cover-up that are pissing me off; whatever happened with those women happened, and nothing can change it. The only thing that can change is his willingness to tell the damn truth. Is there anything I can say or do to stop the TT? Or do I just call him on it?


"This is my heart and I won't allow the disrespect."

Posts: 69 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: Philadelphia
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 7:57 AM, January 8th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LOVS,

I went back and read a few of your posts. You are letting him set the tone for R at a time when you should be the primary focus. At the front end of R (which I don't think you are in entirely because you still don't have all of the truth), the WS should be giving and offering things to the BS in order to help them. Sure, the WS needs to feel safe, but there is feeling safe, then there is avoidance. If he was actively scheduling MC as often as feasible and not telling you that he feels it is more interrogation, then I would say things were okay as long as you agreed to it. The current situation though is a cover for him to hold back on telling you the truth. It is likely that he won't tell you anything that you don't specifically ask about.

I would suggest that at your next MC, you confront him with the new info and then lay down YOUR requirements of him. You can do this by requesting a timeline from him. You can give him a list of questions. You can tell him to write everything out and to include EVERYTHING.

Where is your line in the sand? What do you think his reaction will be if you put your foot down and change the Q&A sessions only happening in front of MC? His reaction will either show you that he is serious or that he is still protecting himself.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6048 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
anotherbetrayal
♀ Member
Member # 30266
Question  Posted: 10:56 AM, January 8th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have posted this in JFO, but would like to also hear from WS. Keep in mind the working was directed toward other BS, but as I said, I'd like input from WS on this. Thanks.

Do you expect your WS to keep you informed about their progress in IC?
There has been many topics/questions that I've told my WH he needs to discuss in IC. He has seen his IC at least 5 times since Dday, yet I've heard nothing that indicates he is making any progress towards feeling remorse. Do I have to dig and pry to get him to talk about this? Am I expecting too much? I know I am very impatient with this, but d*mn it, I'm in pain!!! Maybe I just have to expect no end to it.

You'd think WH would want me to know how hard he's working (if he is). But then, maybe he's just not getting anywhere in IC?

So, do I have to just wait for his to share his IC epiphanies? Do I have to ask?

So very frustrated. So very discouraged.


Me: BS
Him: WS
Her: MOW w/kids

Posts: 193 | Registered: Dec 2010
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 11:12 AM, January 8th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

anotherbetrayal,

I personally believe that IC is a private matter, sort of like journals. That being said, if the WS is using IC and journals to wallow in memories of the A, then that is not a good thing and you have a right to know if that is going on.

You should let him know what you expect.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6048 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 1:20 PM, January 8th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Bfmvalentine - It depends what you mean by "protect" the AP. I never vilified or demonized the AP. He was immaterial. He was merely the one who responded to my overtures. I truly don't hate him. I don't have much feeling toward him at all.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 1:27 PM, January 8th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Anotherbetrayal - I believe IC is private. You can ask him how it's going and he should tell you, but it's up to him how much. I did give my H almost a play by play after every session - part of it was because I felt safe sharing with him. He did not use what I told him against me. (Except for one thing, but we've worked that out.)

Now, 2 years out, I will occasionally go to IC, but I don't share anymore. It's maintenance stuff for SA and I want to keep it private. (Kind of like I wouldn't share beyond logistics of 12-step.)


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
anotherbetrayal
♀ Member
Member # 30266
Default  Posted: 6:35 PM, January 8th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BaxtersBFF and UnexpectedSong, thanks for your replies.

I do understand that IC is a private thing and I don't really care to hear any details of WH's IC sessions. But I would really like to hear updates of some kind that ensures me that he's not wallowing in self-pity and blaming me for his choice to step outside of the marriage, which was his initial explanation for the A.

He continues to make comments that allude to this same mind-set, but when I ask if he is blaming me for his bad choices he says no and tries to back-peddle to make his comment appear less blaming.

Also, he has said he has yet to feel guilt and remorse, which I feel to be crucial to R. I'm feeling rather impatient and anxious to hear and see this. w/o remorse, I see no future for our M.


Me: BS
Him: WS
Her: MOW w/kids

Posts: 193 | Registered: Dec 2010
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 8:54 AM, January 9th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

anotherbetrayal,

Yeah, I did what your WH is doing. I was having a very hard time moving past those feelings and IC didn't help me along the path that I should have been travelling but rather helped me experience those feelings from the A longer because that is what she thought I wanted to do. So I should have dumped my IC a lot sooner.

Maybe you could set up a joint session with his IC to show a united front of what you and your WH expect out of IC. That might shed some light on things with his IC and force some movement/stop the potential lying or wallowing that is going on in his IC. Actually, maybe having a monthly check-in would help. Not going over the history of his IC, but just checking in, sort of like a mini-MC effort.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6048 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
OptimisticMe
♀ Member
Member # 30658
Default  Posted: 3:22 PM, January 10th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My WH had multiple affairs from ONS to full blown affairs. Some things that have bothered me are that I could do something very special for him and then within a couple weeks he could start an affair.

For example, I through WH a surprise b-day party. Two weeks later he began his relationship with OW. I confronted him that I was worried he was being unfaithful, and hours later he had sex with her the first time.

I don't understand how he could betray me like he did right after I had been thoughtful and right after I told him my concerns. Can anyone explain to me how he may have compartmentalized? I feel like if a b-day party can't keep him happy and faithful, then what can?

WH says he was an ass and only cared about himself. Is that really it? My thoughtful gestures had no impact on him? How can some lead seemingly double lives and tell themselves they aren't doing anything wrong?


Me: 28, BW
Him: 32, WH, Sex Addict
3 kids: 13 DD (his), 4 DD (ours), 2 DS (ours)

Married 8 years.

Hubs is firm in recovery from SA and is like a new man and husband. We are happily reconciling and making great progress...nope, ass is back


Posts: 111 | Registered: Jan 2011
poopylala
♀ Member
Member # 30119
Default  Posted: 1:52 PM, January 11th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nobody replied to my previous question but I really want to know so I'll see if I can word it better:

WBF did not confess about how OW#1 was also a PA, he only admitted after much TTing that she was an EA. I get why he was scared to tell me- fear of me leaving, fear of hurting me... He seems to be coming out of the fog and I feel his attemtps at working on us are sincere this time. My question is aside from my intuition, how can I tell if he's really sincere on working towards R? How do I know he has given me the full truth? How do I know I can believe him when he says he wants me and nobody else?


BGF (me)- 24
FWBF (him)- 24
in a LTR

forgiven and in R :)

"To err is human.
To forgive,
divine"


Posts: 956 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: Houston, TX
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 2:18 PM, January 11th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

poopylala, His actions should be consistent over time. Is he transparent? has he given you a time-line, does he talk about the A or other issues that you need him to bring up? On your list of things for him to do, is he taking those on willingly?

He will probably screw up somewhere in this process. When he does, or if he has, what is his reaction? Does he realize it? does he blameshift? Do you feel safe?

Is he present?

Is he remorseful yet? or is he just feeling guilty?

All of those things help your intuition to know if you have the whole truth and whether or not he really wants you and nobody else. The answers are different for everyone.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6048 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
poopylala
♀ Member
Member # 30119
Default  Posted: 10:26 AM, January 12th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He admitted to me that last friday he realized he had not been trying before (starting to come out of fog) but before he realized that he blameshifted a lot. Since he just started trying for real I don't have enough to see that he's being transparent and open (we don't live together) although he has been pretty transparent with his time outside of work. He didn't want to write a NC email monday when I said I needed that after we left MC. He just wanted to stop talking to them all but I said he needed to write a NC that I approve before he sends it. I'm staying at his house tonight and monday night he told me he was working on something to prove to me he wanted me and only me. Idk what that is but I did tell him I needed consistency in his actions for me to see he has changed.


BGF (me)- 24
FWBF (him)- 24
in a LTR

forgiven and in R :)

"To err is human.
To forgive,
divine"


Posts: 956 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: Houston, TX
awife
♀ Member
Member # 1014
Happy  Posted: 9:34 AM, January 15th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have read that most infidelities occur during stress/crisis periods in life.
Such as the 7 yr. itch, first child, empty nest, death, financial crisis, etc.

Do you feel that this made a difference in WHEN you choose to cheat in your marriage?

Or was it simply meeting someone who you had a strong attraction to and wanting to take the opportunity?


Posts: 548 | Registered: Jan 2003
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