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User Topic: BS Questions for WS- Part 5
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 3:42 PM, February 11th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

trustagain -

how do you trust the OM/W that they will not lie to you?

You have to remember that in entering the A, we've set aside reality to begin with. We can even see the bad in the AP blatantly in front of us. But because we want whatever it is we are getting from the AP so badly, we ignore the bad and focus exclusively on the good.

We make up lies to ourselves to cover the lies we are told. "Well, they must have had a good reason for not telling me. Maybe they wanted to protect me from a crazy spouse. Maybe the BS is lying just to get back at me and they're not really married. Maybe the status is one of those Facebook "It's Complicated" things.".

We basically delude ourselves into ignoring any way that the AP might be mistreating us, because the validation (or whatever else they are giving to the relationship) is such a big draw.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
inahurricane
♀ Member
Member # 28687
Default  Posted: 3:28 PM, February 14th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ListeningClosely - thank you for responding to my question.

And a general thank you to all WS and BS who show so much compassion and understanding to those of us on these threads.

Happy Valentines day

[This message edited by inahurricane at 3:29 PM, February 14th (Monday)]


BW - FWH in our 40's
FWH confessed March 21, 2010
Reconciled(Us), Redemption (WS & OW), Reclaimed (my life)


Posts: 262 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: North Carolina
heavy heart 2
♀ New Member
Member # 31190
Default  Posted: 3:53 AM, February 15th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I want to know how a man can have sex with another women but yet say he never stopped loving me although it went on for 2 years I just don't know how to believe this he knew it was wrong and would hurt me but that just didn't seem to matter someone please tell me can this really be true


BS( Me ) 34
WH 33
2 Kiddies
Trying to Reconcile

Posts: 18 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: australia
HUFI-PUFI
♂ Member
Member # 25460
Default  Posted: 7:55 AM, February 15th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

heavy heart 2 - I want to know how a man can have sex with another women but yet say he never stopped loving me although it went on for 2 years I just don't know how to believe this he knew it was wrong and would hurt me but that just didn't seem to matter someone please tell me can this really be true.

Yes, it can be true. I know that your life has been turned upside down with this revelation and that you are desperately trying to rationalize things out in your head, trying to make sense of it all. In order to bring order to chaos, you’re struggling with finding reasons that make sense to you over this all and the sad truth is that you will never find a reason that makes sense.

In the book, When Good People have Affairs by Mira Kirshenbaum; there is a whole discussion on when otherwise good people cheat. We all know of the serial cheaters, the ones that are Don Juan in disguise who are always on the prowl for another sexual conquest. The affair would almost be understandable if your H was like that but the truth is, he probably wasn’t and that’s where the mental conflict lies.

Unknown Poster - The mind of a WS is a very sordid, confused place during the preamble, main body, and post mortem of an A. Don't give us too much credit for rational thought.

How can good people have affairs and how can they still love their wives and families even while betraying them? There are a lot of mumble jumbo words that are tossed around here explaining that. Rationalization, compartmentalization, ego building, external validation and other coping skills play into the affair. In some respects, it’s about the lies that we tell ourselves. We tell ourselves that we need this, we deserve this, we’re not happy with our lives, we want this. And to deflect the guilt and shame, we lie to ourselves.

Unknown Poster - For every lie I told her, I told two to myself.

Hell, it sometimes seems that even after years of therapy, there still are only questions as to “why’ we had our affairs. Sometimes, the answer will never satisfy anyone. Not only may you never be happy with the answer, the truth is that your H may never be able to answer the question of why to his own satisfaction.

Recently I am starting to learn that my own heart and mind are not always my best friend either as I try to peel away the onion of intertwined thoughts, actions, emotions, fears, passions and destructive behaviours that brought me to this affair – HUFI

I know that I loved my wife even as I started my affair. In the week prior to the A starting, I had written this long letter to her telling her that she was my one and only. Then I reconnected with my AP and poof, I was running two lives at the same time. There was me and the AP and my other life. Hell, at times, I had difficulty trying to keep them straight in my head.

The affair is about the brokenness of the WS. That I firmly believe in. The brokenness comes from the complexity of the individual. Our ability to separate the two worlds that we live in. The ability to rationalize our motives. The ability to compartmentalize the right and wrong within our lives. The need to create justifications. We’re not immoral people who had an affair; we were good people who had affairs. That internal conflict demands that we create barriers between the two competing worlds that we live in. There literally are two people with two worlds with two different lives happening.

The journey between being an honest man and a two timing cheating bastard was not marked by a single solitary act of dishonour or a single lie. No, it was unfortunately marked by a whole lot of small "white" lies, a sprinkle of half truths and a pinch of trickle truthing. Hmmm, perhaps that now explains why I don't see an honest, truthful man in the mirror anymore in the mornings. Pity, what a shame. I kinda of miss him and I know my BS does. During their affairs, honest people learn to lie and liars learn to sound honest - HUFI

Even as I wrote to the AP expressing my love, I would do the same to my wife. Yes, it’s not a pretty picture but it’s the truth. I did love my wife even as I was cheating on her. In my wife’s eyes, the affair proves that I was not in love however, at some level or the other, I still was in love. I was just lost.

This explanation doesn’t really come close to telling you how and why your H had an affair even when, especially when he was “still in love with you” but I think it’s quite possible. Hell, I know it’s quite possible; after all, I was in the same boat.

May I suggest that you read the posts listed below to get a bit more insight into what your WS might have been feeling as the affair occurred?

Why did you do it - http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=226407

Morality and the WS - http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=393113

Some things about the Wayward Mindset - http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=356008

I fear that at times, nothing that is given as a reason will ever be enough for the BS to accept as the reason. How can something that happened inside the head and heart of the WS ever justify the pain that it created in my BS's life? It can never justify it, at the best, it can only explain it.

HUFI

We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light – Plato


Don’t listen to your head, it’s easily confused. Don’t listen to your heart, its fickle. Listen to your soul, God doesn't steer you wrong.

Posts: 3218 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: Azilda, Northern Ontario
victory
♂ Member
Member # 31088
Default  Posted: 8:08 AM, February 15th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What do you do with a WW who shows in her actions no remorse or compassion for the BH who's she decimated? Is there any hope that she will come out of this fog? Is this some especially hard nut to crack to de-fog?


Dday- 1-26-11 (7 month PA)
BH (me)-41
WW- 37
3 little kids (6-8-10)
married 11 yrs, together 17
Divorced summer 2012 (I think)
I HAVE CUSTODY OF MY GIRLS!!!

Posts: 204 | Registered: Feb 2011
stilllovinghim
♀ Member
Member # 29971
Default  Posted: 8:29 AM, February 15th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Victory:
Your D-day was pretty recent I take it. She apparently is deep in the fog. There is hope yet, so don't despair.

Has your W been on SI? Has she read the Healing Library?

ETA: Just read some of your previous posts. I really & truly hope your W can pull her head out of her ass with the quickness.

180, 180, 180...

Continue to work on yourself & being the best damn daddy those babies of yours will ever have!

So sad she's being so cruel to you. I feel soooo bad for you. I really, really do.
My prayers and thoughts to you and your family at this time.

[This message edited by stilllovinghim at 9:11 AM, February 15th (Tuesday)]


“You have a choice. Live or die.Every breath is a choice. Every minute is a choice. Every time you don't throw yourself down the stairs, that's a choice. Every time you don't crash your car, you re-enlist.”
― Chuck Palahniuk, Survivor

Posts: 1933 | Registered: Oct 2010
Merlin
♂ Member
Member # 30221
Default  Posted: 9:54 AM, February 15th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What do you do with a WW who shows in her actions no remorse or compassion for the BH who's she decimated? Is there any hope that she will come out of this fog? Is this some especially hard nut to crack to de-fog?

Victory,

'StillLovingHim' offers good advice. The 180 is the best chance you have. It helps you to gain perspective and gives her a taste of what life is like once you decline the roles of safety net and training wheels.

Be the man you've always wanted to be. Be the Dad you need and want to be.

I 180'd to the point of NC after my XW moved out (six wekks after D-day). But she was well and truly gone long before that.

Success may not be measured by whether or not she returns to you and your children. Success will be measured in who you become as a result of this awful passage in your life.


"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." D. H. Lawrence

Her: WW/56 Me: BS/62, 24yrs M
3 great kids, now 22, 20, 17 b,b,g
D-Day 8/14/08, D 1/13/11


Posts: 1106 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: East Coast
floridaredman
♂ Member
Member # 15122
Default  Posted: 11:33 AM, February 15th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

victory,

Like was mentioned you should do the 180. The 180 is meant for you so that you can keep yourself grounded as the WS is spinning out of control.

What your WW is doing now is all about her. She is equivalent to an addict whose drug just happens to be a human.

This is about flaws within herself..not you.

There were things that probably could have been better in your marriage on both parts, however she chose this monstrous route to deal with it. That you did not deserves accolades within itself.

She has to come out of the fog on her own and the only thing you can do now is protect yourself and your kids.

By you doing the 180 it will help you build confidence in yourself. It will help you feel good about yourself. It will help you see clearly that this has nothing to do with who you are as a person.
It will help you not feel you need to rely on her for validation because right now she is only validating herself.

If/when she comes out of the fog, she will realize how cruel and selfish she has been. Even to the point of neglecting her own children for her "fix".

The 180 is your best friend now. It is best for you and your kids.

[This message edited by floridaredman at 11:35 AM, February 18th (Friday)]


The simplest thing can be the hardest thing to do....FRM

Posts: 2412 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Florida
livetotell
♀ Member
Member # 26527
Default  Posted: 11:58 AM, February 15th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

First of all, thank you to all of you FWSs who really get what R is all about. So many of you have posted about things that have helped me on my journey more than I can say.

I would love a little insight on this situation if you could provide it for me. Our sex life has always been very active. One of the issues my FWH has had has been that he feels as though he is always the one bringing new ideas to the table - that I am willing but he has to generate ideas or else it will always be "same old thing." In the past year as we have been in R, I have added a lot here and there, and he has been inconsistent in his responsiveness. To the point where sometimes, I am trying to engage him sexually and he is literally just laying there staring at the ceiling. We have had multiple conversations about this but it seems to get us nowhere - I am left feeling undesirable to him, frustrated and angry because obviously, sex is a touchy area for me post-A. Can you help to shine a light on what might be some causes for his behavior? I know you don't know all the details of our situation but sometimes I really even wonder if he could answer this for me. In a nutshell, for those of you in R, did you find periods of time where you sexually detached from your BS, or felt as though you could not engage sexually, even when they were the ones initiating?


Me: BW - 36 Him: WH - 35
D-Day 1: 11/17/09
D-Day 2: 3/31/11
I'm not taking grenades for you anymore baby.
We are in R.
"Today I will live in the moment....unless the moment is unpleasant in which case I will eat a cookie"

Posts: 293 | Registered: Dec 2009
floridaredman
♂ Member
Member # 15122
Default  Posted: 12:14 PM, February 15th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

livetotell,

It appears your WH may be having his own mind movies. Did you two discuss details of his affair and what was done sexually?
Certain touches and inuendos can have flashes of deja vu from the affair.

It is not good to hear..I know. He may be trying to associate what is going on with you and not what happened in the affair.


The simplest thing can be the hardest thing to do....FRM

Posts: 2412 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Florida
HopingNPraying
♀ Member
Member # 28030
Default  Posted: 6:54 PM, February 15th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((livetotell))

One possibility is that he might feel that he is unworthy of the gift you are giving him. I have definitely had times when I was enjoying love-making and then had a very negative response that I couldn't explain until I realized I was nearing climax and I didn't want to -it just didn't seem right that I should be so happy.

It's possible that his thoughts of guilt and joy are conflicting such that his response is to freeze up.

In my case, though, my BH and I both thought the other was less adventurous in the bedroom than was really the case, so we both had been somewhat hesitant to suggest new things to the other. Once my A's were outed we opened up during hysterical bonding.

You mention you've had many conversations about this. What does he say about it?


BS 50, FWW/SLA 44 (me), M 18 yrs,
DD 15
DDay#1 1/2/10: ONS #1 ('95) & EA (7/'09 - 1/'10); DDay#2 1/7/10: ONS #3 (2001); DDay#3 3/15/10: ONS #2 (1998); DDay#4 4/19/10: ONS while dating (1991); more DDays: EA while M & ONSs while dating

Posts: 105 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: Virginia
stilllovinghim
♀ Member
Member # 29971
Default  Posted: 2:19 AM, February 16th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

livetotell:
FWW here.
Two things popped up when I read your post.
1: He MIGHT be looking for an excuse to have a fight or arguement with you becasue he's unhappy for some reason.

2:He could just be feeling inner loathing inside. He may feel like he's "dirty" or "damaged goods" & doesn't know how to communicate that to you.


“You have a choice. Live or die.Every breath is a choice. Every minute is a choice. Every time you don't throw yourself down the stairs, that's a choice. Every time you don't crash your car, you re-enlist.”
― Chuck Palahniuk, Survivor

Posts: 1933 | Registered: Oct 2010
livetotell
♀ Member
Member # 26527
Default  Posted: 9:43 AM, February 16th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Floridaman, HopingnPraying and stilllovinghim....
thank you so much for your responses - you all gave me something to chew on. I want to answer some of your questions in the hopes that you have some more brilliance for me!

First, we did discuss the details of the affair early on - I found out about it by discovering some pretty graphic emails so I basically asked him to confirm some of the activities. There were certain things that went on between them regularly (like him sucking her breasts - sorry for TMI) that I had a hard time doing with him at first when we became intimate again that I worked hard to get over due to my own mind movies. He has never told me that he experiences mind movies but it is possible I suppose. However, he definitely is a boob man to stick with that example and always goes for them when he is into things

It's possible that his thoughts of guilt and joy are conflicting such that his response is to freeze up.

I've had this thought that you presented HnP but I'm not sure that this is really it - in a weird way, I would like this to be the reason, not because I wish the guilt on him but because it would make sense to me. But it is not all the time that his sexual disengagement happens - honestly, it is more when I try to approach him in a more (for lack of a better phrase) "normal" way - i.e. snuggling up on him when we are in bed, kissing, touching intimately - rather than something more kinky - like reading him an erotic story or bringing out a toy or putting on an adult movie for us to enjoy together. Honestly, this kind of thing was an issue prior to the A but is worse post-A - as for conversations, we are both well aware of each others preferences and have both made concessions to the other - and generally enjoyed said concessions - however, i continue to get feedback of sex being "boring, predictable, same old thing, ect..." It is very frustrating when I work hard all the time to shut out my own mind movies and remember that he is with me - when he is committing to the act, it gets really hard to tell myself that.....


So all this makes me wonder if it is really this....

1: He MIGHT be looking for an excuse to have a fight or arguement with you becasue he's unhappy for some reason

Any more thoughts would be appreciated. Just to add this - we did do MC for a few months, it was helpful but I really did not feel comfortable with the counselor - I told him I would be happy to continue with someone else and as of yet, he has not taken me up on it - I felt like we kept getting hung up on my lack of assertiveness - which I have been actively working on through my own IC - and not as much about the sexual issues. He went to IC for a couple of months early on - I went to one session with him and did not feel as though the counselor was the right type for him - he is a VERY strong personality and from what I saw, he basically rolled right over her - I have suggested he find someone else and he has stated that he does not need IC anymore - he worked through his issues and continues to do so on his own. I see my IC regularly.


Me: BW - 36 Him: WH - 35
D-Day 1: 11/17/09
D-Day 2: 3/31/11
I'm not taking grenades for you anymore baby.
We are in R.
"Today I will live in the moment....unless the moment is unpleasant in which case I will eat a cookie"

Posts: 293 | Registered: Dec 2009
nlovemyfamily
♀ Member
Member # 15258
Default  Posted: 11:09 AM, February 16th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

would love to hear thoughts on this theory of mid-life passage from WS or should I say FWS. Just wondering if it connects with any of you and has any credibility.
http://www.menweb.org/crossoul.htm

Posts: 415 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: nj
stilllovinghim
♀ Member
Member # 29971
Default  Posted: 6:04 AM, February 17th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have suggested he find someone else and he has stated that he does not need IC anymore - he worked through his issues and continues to do so on his own. I see my IC regularly

LTT:
This sent up a red flag. How can he diagnose himself? How does he know he doesn't need help? Hell, who doesn't need help???

I find it very improbable that he's good after one meeting. He can work thru SOME things on his own. But not ALL. And given the nature and depth of the Affair, it seems he was in deep.

From my personal experience with people who I've known, it seems the ones who say they don't need or don't want help are the ones who need it the most. JMHO.


“You have a choice. Live or die.Every breath is a choice. Every minute is a choice. Every time you don't throw yourself down the stairs, that's a choice. Every time you don't crash your car, you re-enlist.”
― Chuck Palahniuk, Survivor

Posts: 1933 | Registered: Oct 2010
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 6:31 AM, February 17th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

nlovemyfamily,

I am not sure I agree with a lot of his ideas. The way he talks about things makes it sound like he had an A, but it is okay because he was prone to having one and he has learned so much since then and because of it. He sounds like he believes he didn't have a choice in the matter.

Other parts of that page I can agree with.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6048 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
livetotell
♀ Member
Member # 26527
Default  Posted: 9:52 AM, February 17th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Stillloving...

completely agree with you - my IC and I have talked about it in length - that until he re-committs to IC himself, our progress in R may continue to be limited. He has a lot of FOO issues that I really think he needs help with. He did go for several sessions and I think initially, it was really good for him - to deal with the reality of what he had chosen to do - but once we started digging into the issues in our marriage pre-A that needed work, it was like he knew what he needed to do and no longer needed a therapist to help him. In terms of that - I KNOW what I need to do - I understand my role in things and what I need to work on - but I need some help with it so I continue to get it. His stance on therapy pre-Dday was always "if it works for you that's great, I don't need to share with a stranger." I had asked him to go to MC with me several times before I found out and he did not want to. Post-A, he immediately sought out IC, arranged MC for us and was all for it - until we were past the crisis of it all and into the work of what we both played a role in in our marital issues. Anyway, I am getting way off topic here!

I feel like this is the key for him and I don't know how to get him to see it without laying down an ultimatum that he has GOT to go back - to a new counselor - and I am not prepared to do that - I want my marriage to heal and that is not a boundary I am ready to enforce. So short of suggesting it from time to time and it being met with irritation from him, any thoughts on how to present it differently??


Me: BW - 36 Him: WH - 35
D-Day 1: 11/17/09
D-Day 2: 3/31/11
I'm not taking grenades for you anymore baby.
We are in R.
"Today I will live in the moment....unless the moment is unpleasant in which case I will eat a cookie"

Posts: 293 | Registered: Dec 2009
WhatHaveIDone??
♀ Member
Member # 30054
Default  Posted: 9:31 PM, February 17th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Victory-

Heed the words of of FloridaRedMan and StillLovingHim - they are wise WSs with lots of great insight. I am still pretty new around here and not exactly the most well spoken, but it is possible for the fog to lift. For me, it took too long and my WH kicking me out of the house to kick my fog. The fog sucks - I can only imagine the additional pain it inflicts on the BS.

Read the Healing Library - you may have to get fought with her before she breaks. Sending you prayers for peace, hope and healing.

(victory)


Posts: 342 | Registered: Nov 2010
nlovemyfamily
♀ Member
Member # 15258
Default  Posted: 11:25 AM, February 19th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

would love to start a list of thoughts a WS has re: gains and losses associated with staying with AP or in A? This could help understand what is down the road for some.

Posts: 415 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: nj
Feeling Consumed
♀ Member
Member # 30592
Default  Posted: 7:55 PM, February 19th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Question to all WS ... what does this mean? In response to an email I sent to my WH asking if he thought about reconciling, my WH wrote me back with an email that did sound remoreseful. He said he has always loved me, that he knows what he did was wrong but also knows it can never be forgotten. He also said that if he had shown me more love we would not be in this situation now (separated) so he is taking responsibility for all this and is very hurt that he hurt me. He does not think we could reconcile, at least not for a long time, so he would like to see me move forward and find someone who could make me happier than he has.
Is this a nice way of saying he doesn't want to even try reconcile because he is still going to pursue OW (still in contact with her, believe it is still EA) - or is it that he has so much shame that he doesn't think he could ever come home?

I am confused because he said he "doesn't think we can reconcile - at least not for a long time". If he had put a period at the end of reconcile, I would get it. But he added the "at least not for a long time". Why? This is wishy-washy and non-committed. Is it a no, or is it a yes he wants to reconcile at sometime? Any ideas?

[This message edited by trying2deal at 8:09 PM, February 19th (Saturday)]


Spent half my life with an Ahole
D final!!! 11-11

"Obladi oblada life goes on...."


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