In terms of reconciliation, I was 80% sure I didnít want to R before I confronted him. But after all the lying Iím now at 99% sure. Not only can I not trust him but his feathers still ruffle whenever I ask him questions. Why would a WS get angry about BS asking questions because they donít trust you? Being untrustworthy is the reputation you create when you decide to enter an A.
I sincerely doubt that even if he wants to R that he knows how to go about it. And after 5 years of spearheading all the letís-improve-our-marriage efforts, Iím not willing to take the lead on the R battle.
[This message edited by Fightingspirit at 1:01 PM, March 29th (Tuesday)]
Divorce finalized 7/2012
Five signs that indicate your cheater is not a chronic case and that the relationship still has hope:
1. Your partner is truly remorseful and regrets having cheated. Look for heartfelt apologies that ring true when you hear them.
2. Your partner cuts off contact with his or her lover.
3. The cheater shows a renewed appreciation and devotion towards you.
4. You wind up having deep, open and honest conversations with each other about your relationship, what was missing in it and where youíd like to take it in the future.
5. Your partner wants to enter psychotherapy or counseling either individually or with you to understand his/her own dynamics and to make your relationship better and more intimate.
horse crazy - My WH has a hard time talking about it and I want to make sure there are no references or similarities in our lovemaking. Any suggestions HUFI or anyone?
Thanks for thinking of me but I have to first remark that I thank God that LF and I donít have the issue of mind movies about sex to deal with. I do have this stupid erotic letter that haunts our R a bit but at least, the mind movies donít exist from my EA.
However, wise BaxtersBFF did give you some insight into how to deal with this issue. The chances are that your H probably told you at one time or the other that he would do anything to get a chance at R, didnít he? Well, perhaps itís time to remind of that promise. Time to tell him to put up or shut up.
When I told LoveFantasy that I would do anything for a second chance, I already knew that that it would mean that I would have to change some of my ways of thinking and doing things. I knew that there would be many days when it would seem easy to just throw my hands into the air and give up. I knew that somehow, I would need to draw on every piece of strength that I had within to face the demons inside of me. In truth, I knew it was going to be the second hardest thing that I ever did. But the alternative to doing all of that hard work would mean facing an even harder task and that of course would be losing my wife and children.
You have the right to demand that this is on the table for discussion. And you may have to remind him of his commitment to R includes opening up and discussing the hard issues. Like he promised to you when he begged for a second chance. (Well, I hope at least that he begged)
So, ask him if discussing this issue is going to be harder than losing his wife over the issue? Tell him that itís getting to be deal breaker time again and that you need answers. I know it may be tough to be that assertive but it seems to me that a lot of the WSís need to be hit over the head with 4x4ís before they see that working at R is actually easier than dealing with divorce.
BE STRONG. BE LION STRONG. ROAAR!
Fightingspirit - I would like to ask if you think I have the right to still question my WH about details after Iíve kicked him out and told him I do not want to R. Iím currently working on getting him to agree to terms in our separation agreement.
Of course you have the right to ask questions. Youíre hurting and youíre angry and you want answers to your questions. Thatís valid and I would encourage you to ask them and to continue to ask questions until you feel you have enough answers to help you heal.
That said and all, the ugly truth is that your H has the right to not answer. It may be stupid and short sighted but he has the right. Hell, there are those WSís who have a whole history of not answering questions. And the reality is that he retains that right whether or not you are separating or divorcing.
However, standing on ones ďrightĒ to not incriminate you doesnít make the action righteous at all.
Fightingspirit - Heís told me he wanted to R but during the first week after D-day he lied so much I donít think he is able to R.
Here is where he might have some difficulty. If youíre basing your whole decision to separate on this actions post affair, in particular in the week after D-day, then I think your decision may be too hasty. I would suspect that if your H was like so many of the WSís here, he was still deep in the fog, unsure where to turn, what to do and how to react to the affair being coming known. I think that TT in the early days is almost usual and normal behaviour for most of us. Itís when the lies continue into the weeks and months beyond that we really have problems.
If you were honest with yourself, was it the TT and lies that sold him down the river or was the affair the deal breaker on its own? Depending on your reply, I wonder if he sensed that nothing he said or did was going to help anyhow and therefore, he just decided to keep going with the lies and deceit that he had been practicing in the weeks before.
Fightingspirit - Only after my sister-in-law got involved did he begin telling me about two other transgressions he had. Second week we had a long talk about all issues in our marriage and I dispelled his belief that R means he apologizes and I forgive him and we never mention the As again. He was really shocked that R and my "getting over it" would take years.
Depending on his empathy and his ability to compartmentalize and minimize, he had already been integrating his affair into his ďpoint of viewĒ for quite some time. Maybe to him, it was just an affair and one of those things that just happens. There are a lot of WSís here who first and foremost tried to see if their spouses would buy into the ďforgive and forgetĒ scenario because it would be so much easier than really having to deal with it the right way. I think itís a sort of ďwhat the hell, might as well try it, never know if it will workĒ thinking going on.
I think the real question is whether or not his thinking has changed at all over the past month or so as he has had more time to reflect on the affair and the consequences? Quite often as they really start to see the true impact, regret and remorse start to influence the ideas that cross the mind of the WS.
Fightingspirit - But I still have questions. Since that last talk about our marriage and R Iíve only asked questions about legal separation and exposure to STDs. Would any WS continue answering questions from a BS who is done with them?
I think it really depends on how he feels on the issue of separation. If you have made it crystal clear that R is off the table regardless, then yes, I suspect that he will take the easy way out and make the decision to not answer questions. For him, answering questions will force him to keep looking back at this failure and making him see his mistakes. Depending on the internal issues that drove him to the affair, hiding from oneís self is part of that process and therefore, letís just close our eyes and move onward is his preferred way of dealing with things.
On the other hand, he also may have figured out that every time that he does talk to you about this, you get angry and frustrated and he may be thinking, why am I just adding to her anger with my questions. Damned if I answer and dammed if I donít.
I would think that you have to ask him directly about this issue. What is he saying? Why doesnít he want to answer your questions? The truth is that even if he answers your questions, the answers given may never resolve the question of ďwhyĒ to your satisfaction. And if you donít get those answers, will you continue to fret and worry about them? Depending on what happens as the S and eventual divorce occur, he may move away and become unavailable to answer your questions. How would something like that affect your need to have answers?
I think the only thing that you can do is to ask him to answer the questions as best as he can, with as much gentleness as he can, so that you can move forward.
Unknown Poster - The mind of a WS is a very sordid, confused place during the preamble, main body, and post mortem of an A. Don't give us too much credit for rational thought.
Laura28 - Are there any WSís out there who had multiple affairs over a long period? I'm just looking for reassurance that a WS who has done this can be truly remorseful and that someone in my situ can have a successful R.
Not unlike BaxtersBFF, luckily, Iím not into the situation of having multiple affairs but I do know that there are a lot of WSís and BSís here who have been in that situation. As to their success rate, I canít really speak to that.
I would suspect that recovery from multiple LTA would have to be low given that this type of affair speaks to me about being more a internal compulsion driving the affairs (character) as compared to a more situational or special storm type behaviour. To my way of thinking, once is a mistake, twice is really stupid behaviour but I would feel that three or more is indicating something is wrong with the person on a very basic level. If anything, to me, this is what drives the old ďonce a cheater, always a cheaterĒ mentality.
However, just because itís possible does not mean itís a certainty. I do believe that leopards can change their spots if they are willing to work at it. The question remains, is this really something that they want to do or is this something that they are being forced to do to keep the marriage going? Not unlike kicking smoking or crack, the big step comes from within the WS who must admit to their errors and then make the decision to not be that person again. Because they want to, not because they have to.
You may get more information on your question in the Multiple Affairs post in the "I can Relate" forum at http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=158617.
Wbf had a ons in August and later I found out about an attempted A (or something) a few years ago, and a sort of oea in the past year. Were trying to R but I feel like his resolve is fading. Maybe he never really understood the concept of R (as opposed to going back to normal).
Anyways, the issue at hand is communication. If HE brings something up, were fine, we talk well, we find solutions, we move on. When I bring something up, it doesn't go so well. Or at all. If something comes up that's out of his comfort zone all he hears is "I fail, I suck, everyone hates me". Keep in mind, I'm very even-tempered even through all of this. I do get upset, obviously, but most of the time I try to approach a conversation from a calm position. Its when he gets defensive and does this that I get upset. I don't feel like he's hiding anything, more that he just doesn't know how to deal.
Also he's not a fan of when I suggest IC (we did one mc, but its been put on hold for financial reasons). I've looked for other, more budget friendly mcs but I don't think ill find one that we'll connect with and get as good results with as the one we've seen). So I guess I'm asking, did anybody react this way to conversations in R and how do I get us out of this cycle?
So, you have this that shows he is doing something
If HE brings something up, were fine, we talk well, we find solutions, we move on.
When I bring something up
I'm very even-tempered
I try to approach a conversation from a calm position.
he just doesn't know how to deal.
Also he's not a fan of when I suggest IC
I've looked for other, more budget friendly mcs
how do I get us out of this cycle?
One way to possibly get out of this cycle is for you to stop doing all of the work and lay out in very specific terms the work that he is going to be doing in order to save his M.
I haven't followed your story, but it sounds like he is really good at getting you to do the heavy lifting.
[This message edited by BaxtersBFF at 9:48 PM, March 30th (Wednesday)]
Your post sounds like what a WS might say and think to justify what they are doing. They might totally believe that justification too, or they may be really good at fooling themselves, or a combination of both. It really is a self perpetuating cycle though so it is easy to talk yourself into believing that line of thinking you are asking about.
If your WH is still saying stuff like this, then he is still pretty far gone. He's with the AP right? If he is, and he is still saying these things, then there is little hope that he will see the light of day.
If you are trying to make sense of what he has told you in the past, then you should just forget it. It seems like you are trying to talk yourself into believing his words, and it just isn't worth it. There isn't anyway for a rational person to believe it.
[This message edited by BaxtersBFF at 7:29 PM, March 31st (Thursday)]
I can seem to let this go and it is important for me to know.
Thank you for any input
R'ing ?? yes, no, maybe, I dont know
This is not the end, this is not the beginning
"That's the thing about pain, it demands to be felt."
He is aware of SI and I've suggested it before. I'm not sure if he's been on to read or not but I'm fairly certain he's never posted. Maybe I'll suggest it again. I think he worries that its a mob of BSs waiting to attack him
For not being familiar with the story you assessed it well. I do do most of the heavy lifting. Once in a while I notice and say something but if I don't see immediate results I don't stick with it. I guess its up to me not to jump back in and see if he'll take over
Thanks for your responses to my question. I really appreciate you taking the time to help those who post here.
I'm fairly confident he meets 1-4. We have not pursued 5 for a range of reasons including a lack of good services near where we live.
Baxters BFF, Grace and Huffi
Before I go on I should say that I now know that the hospital where FWH works has a shocking reputation for infidelity. When I went to see my attorney before I told him anything he said "Is it the hospital, Organisation B or Organisation C?" I asked why he was asking and he said "Because 70% of my business comes from the hospital, 20 % from B and C and the other 10% from elsewhere".
I am fairly convinced that my H continued his As simply because "everyone was doing it" at the hospital and because he got away with it for so long. After a time it just became the way he lived. By the time I found out I believe he had gotten over any concern about being caught.
He has told me quite a lot in the last couple of weeks. He didn't seem to have any real emotional connection with OW1. OW2 told me she chased him for 3 yrs before she got him and fell in love with him. He told me that they were "friends" for ages and that one day she said she just wanted the sex (perhaps she did as a way of "catching" him?) and once they started she never suggested leaving me . He also says he often went to visit her and only stayed for an hour or two. Sometimes only a half hour. This also tallies with her version. I believe what she has told me because I have been able to verify lots of other things she has said and they were all correct.
He tells me OW3 initially wanted him for the sex but then after a while said she was in love with him and wanted him to leave for her. She began putting pressure on him. He told me he was annoyed with her because she said two or three times that he "didn't have the balls" to leave me.
So my conclusion is that it was about the sex and his ego. OW2 and OW3 were both "in love" with him and so I suspect went to lots of trouble to make him "happy". They made few demands on him and he was happy to take what he could get.
I would suspect that recovery from multiple LTA would have to be low given that this type of affair speaks to me about being more a internal compulsion driving the affairs (character) as compared to a more situational or special storm type behaviour.
By recovery do you mean me, him or us? I honestly don't think I will ever truly forgive him for what he did but it doesn't mean we can't make the marriage work. KWIM?? I would feel the same if we D. I am currently willing to stay because he is being so good to me. If that "wears off" or he cheats again I will leave.
The question remains, is this really something that they want to do or is this something that they are being forced to do to keep the marriage going? ........ the big step comes from within the WS who must admit to their errors and then make the decision to not be that person again. Because they want to, not because they have to.
When we talk about what he did he often says "But I am not that person anymore. I have changed. What I did to you is awful and I will spend the rest of my life trying to make you happy"
So maybe I'm answering my own question. I suppose I'm still looking for reassurance but I guess only TIME will tell.
Thanks again for your answers and good luck in your own R
I shall post my story soon but in the meantime I have a question...
I have no idea whether my WH is still with OW (we're separated) but, thanks to an IP tracker on my blog, I can see that he checks my blog quite often - recently, it's been every two or three days. There's nothing personal on the blog at all - it's more cultural. Anyway...he's been checking at strange times, like 3 am, Saturday mornings, Sunday afternoons (why isn't he with 'her' at these times??)He's also downloaded a couple of photos of me from the blog.
Am I clutching at straws to believe he's missing me? I want him to miss me!!
Thank you for your replies - and a glimpse into the mindset of a WS
PS I think you're great...
Hope is patience with the lamp lit.
He had 3 different OW over a 5 yr. period before we had our D_Day.
By that time his co-workers wives had already divorced them for cheating. They were always complaining about the child support, alimony, and how miserable they were.
My H did all the hard work of completely changing because he didn't want to loose me or the marriage. He always loved me but was just having fun with the boys.
It has been almost 30 yrs. since that time. We have a happy, healthy marriage!
Our kids are grown now, and we love being grandparents. I am already retired, but H keeps working for our medical ins. and other benefits.
I don't know what the statistics are for repeat offenders, but I would guess it would depend on whether they changed completely on D-Day, never to cheat again.
please do not answer by proxy for your WS. This thread is for the WS's to help BS's.
It would be nice if you would re-post in the Reconciliation forum where success stories are helpful and appreciated.
It could be a control thing. Not the kind of control where he is actually trying to manipulate you, but the kind of control that might be helping him to not go totally nuts.
Being in an A can be like fighting chaos. As long as some parts of the WS life is normal, then that chaos can be dealt with to some degree. Once the BS is out of the picture, be it through the 180 or through S or D, that whole part of the WS life is an unknown. No control. Chaos encroaches.
Or, it could be that he just misses you and realizes how bad of a choice he has made. If that is the case, then he may be looking for some sign from you that he can come back or is wanted at all. Depends on how far out from d-day you are, what type of WS he is.