WH did send me an email about a 2 months ago, telling me where he was, what he was doing and giving me his new phone number. He also asked if he could phone me 'when I was available'. Thing is, I can't forget a similar incident 6 years ago when he wanted us to meet 'just the two of us' and I discovered he was still trying to decide between the two of us. He chose me, showed full remorse (actions!)and there followed two years of rollercoaster hell, then 4 years of 'true' reconciliation. Just as I had started to trust him, he did it again!!
This time, I want him to be honest to himself and to me. So I didn't reply to the email immediately but when I did, I mentioned that there was no hope of us being 'friends' (which I got the feeling he wanted) while he was having an affair.
No reply since then but I did send a follow-up email where I said the same thing but in a gentler fashion and said I missed him.
He's bi-polar/Borderline and has a history of doing impulsive things with disastrous consequences
Still, I was hoping he does miss me and find it strange that he visits my blog in the early hours of the morning or at times when he ought to be with her (week-ends).
I live in hope!
Thanks again for youe insight...
Hope is patience with the lamp lit.
My WH is being nice to me, and we have sex. He says he is "in love" with me but "we just don't get along." He apologized for his conduct with the OW and how it affected me. He also said that he wished I never found out (???).
Question: Yes, I know he does love me, but he keeps saying that "we fight too much" or we're not compatible. However, he does encourage us to be friends and have sex. And he says I'm the only woman he will ever love. Am I wasting my time? I am starting divorce proceedings. The problem is that I am still in love with him and if there's any hope, I wouldn't divorce. I'm worried that the divorce with sever any chance we have at all. But if he's never coming around, then I want to move on. Ideas? Input?
[This message edited by hatelying at 4:07 AM, April 4th (Monday)]
"I'm the kind of woman that when my feet hit the floor, the devil says, "Oh crap, she's up!"
He also said that he wished I never found out (???).
Deep down, most WSs probably wish this - even though we don't share that feeling with our BSs.
keeps saying that "we fight too much" or we're not compatible.
I've said similar things to my BH many times. I think it was more for me than anything. It was somehow making it ok for him to leave me. I would ask him if he really feels these things are valid reasons for not trying to R after the A.
I don't know if you are wasting your time. But, as a woman, my advice to you would be to stay away from the sex with him. Have you tried MC? If fighting and being incompatible are issues, MC could help work on those, as well as dealing with the A.
He picks fights with me. He's been doing this for several years. For the first 13 years of our marriage, we got along great. It wasn't until he started his own business that he started getting selfish and picking fights. All of a sudden we weren't "compatible" and I irritated him.
I'm not sure if anything I do at this point will make him happy. I think he looks at me and feels guilty. I know he loves me, but I don't think he wants to deal with everything. Do they get out of this stage or is time to move on?
My WH still denies, lies and gas-lights. He has been with multiple women over the last 2 years. We separated (his choice) 5 months ago (3 months after D-Day #1) because he couldn't handle how I was dealing with the pain of his betrayal. Come to find out he was still in cheating mode...and still is. He wants to fix it and he says he still loves me, but........he moved in with a new GF in February! WTH?!! I know what I need to do and I'm trying....I even filed for divorce last month. My question is..........how can he say he still wants to fix it AND he still loves me but is doing what he's doing? I just don't get it!
PS...I know "they" say you'll never understand why so don't get hung up on it...but how can he say he still loves me but can keep on seeing someone else?
PSS....and he has not done anything to even attempt to reconcile. He's "waiting for me" to stop with the "bs questions and accusations". (I can substantiate all my "accusations"). Yep, he's the poster child of a cheater, just wanting to know how he can say he still loves me..........
[This message edited by takilasunrise at 2:15 PM, April 4th (Monday)]
Denial isn't the way to forgiveness. The Karma for screwing over a good girl is the Bitch you end up with.
Below is a progress report to the original list of things I felt I needed to R. I badly need WS opinion on this and posted this in R forum but did not get many WS responses.
Read, educate yourself -
Your reading books, articles, SI.com etc and sharing your thoughts about what you've read will go a LONG way toward healing the damage by showing that you DO care and are willing to do the work. You have no idea how important this is to me. <--- 2011 update None of the above happened.
Own your actions-
By owning, I mean really explore your actions and understand them instead of running away from them. IC would be a good way for you to really understand what made you cross the line. <--- 2011 update Although FWH has owned the A 100% the above items were never addressed (no IC for him) or if they were, they were never expressed to me.
Maintain transparency and NC forever-
I know the transparency request might sound a little draconian but really it's not. If we are to be successful as a couple there should never be any secrets between us. I have NO problem maintaining total transparency with you. <---2010 Update NC looks to have been kept so far and transparency has been maintained, YAY one thing on the list accomplished!
Be honest with me always-
No more lies, including lies of omission or lies to prevent further hurt OR lies to preserve the peace <--2011 update, I cannot know for sure, but I do feel he lies to preserve the peace. For example, I think he does have songs that remind him of her (he's VERY music oriented) but he refuses to tell me and then delete them from his library. Only when I told him I deleted the ONE love song I KNEW he associated with her did he then tell me he was thinking of deleting it that very day (Really? Seriously?) or was that a lie.
Never leave the house without telling me where you are going-
I know you used to do this regularly even before the affair but because of our new life, this cannot happen again.
<--- 2011 update. Still does this occasionally
Be strong enough-
When you feel Im getting angry or upset, hold me, express your remorse, tell my how much you regret your actions and look me in the eyes so I can see your remorse and be comforted by it. Please do not shut down or run away from the pain or anger you see on my face. <---- 2011 Update. He listens to me speak or vent, says nothing and then shuts down.
So, I know this is long but I really need WS input. This does not look like a WS trying to R to me. Does it to you?
..you said he is the posterboy for cheaters..
what more do you need to know..
and he moved in with another woman in Feb...???
..what are you not seeing here?
..are you still seeing him ? at all? and if so, are you still giving him 'anything'??
..are you familiar with the term cake-eater'??
..it sounds like he is just doing what he wants..with whomever he wants..
..you are married to him?? if you are..he is disrespecting you completely and it is up to you as to whether you tollerate this or not..
..you have the choice to say enough is enough and lose this loser..or be treated like a doormat..
..sorry if this sounds blunt but..face the facts that he has put right in front of you
..i wouldn't call what he is giving you 'Love'..not even close..
He could have finally had reality slap him in the face. The thought of loosing you for a piece of tail. Is there any way that he could switch schedules or even jobs to prevent any future runins?
We fortunately moved about two weeks after Dday and I worked with the AP. I didn't have direct contact, but my job did require phone calls between us. The phone calls were kept strictly work related but we still managed to run into eachother after Dday.
I can't speak for your H and he may be really wanting to just go forward with you, but I'd really keep a very close eye on him. Look at his reactions to questions. Really listen to him and to your gut. No one wants to be the "bad guy" in this, but I'd just really watch him the next few weeks.
It sounds like this is mostly a communication problem on his part. That being said, it takes two to communicate. Yes, he should be getting it by now, but he apparently isn't according to what you posted. Or, you aren't perceiving that he is getting it. So, how does he communicate?
By giving transparency
and keeping NC and owning his actions, is that his form of communication? to say "look, I am doing these things" which then, to him, implies that he is doing the other things?
There are a lot of things on your list that are things my BW would have put on a list. I think for us, we looked at and worked on communication skills before we really got into the meat and potatoes of the A.
somewhere along the line your WH isn't getting that he needs to communicate with you. Or, he may think that he is by doing some of those things on the list, but then feels defeated when he realizes through your communication that he really isn't communicating in a way that you understand.
This all makes it sound like I think you have work to do, and that isn't it. How was the M before his A? Did he ever communicate before? In my M, I sort of live in the big picture while BW lives in the details. It's a team. And there are certain things that I have needed to do that wouldn't have happened without a push from BW. On those occasions where I do take the lead on something involving details, there is a lot of uncertainty on my part as to whether or not it is the right thing. People would probably say that is childish or immature and that I need to work on building self-esteem or trusting myself. It might be viewed as being dependent on that external validation that seems to be part of the reason of many A's. Many a WS is described as being a child or an infant and the BS's are very fed up with having to be the parent. So, you can do like stilllovinghim suggests and 180 his ass. Logically, that should be a strong message for him to wake up and start being an adult. I'm not sure he would know what to do with that though.
Is he willing to go to MC? And if you get him there, can you put the A on the back burner until you and he establish a way to communicate that you both can accept?
If at all possible, he should be looking for a different job.
On the presumption that isn't in the cards for you guys right now, then you need to make some decisions for yourself. His reason of "he knows you will work our" is not sufficient and is still blameshifting. He has not made any decisions for himself yet, he is just going with the flow. So you need to decide how long you are going to let him not take responsibility for his actions. He isn't doing that yet. The problem is that you can't really make him do that. He has to decide to do that, and he probably won't really decide (or realize the impact of his choices) until you set some requirements.
It sounds like NC hasn't happened and maybe won't happen because of the work sitch. Is transparency happening? Has he told you the entire truth?
I guess that I think your question may be a bit premature. That is partly because I don't think (based on your post) that he understands how this is affecting you. You yelled, he cried, he says he knows your M will work out now. Bullshit.
Lay it on the line. Find a way to let him know the full impact of this situation and that you won't be willing to just accept his words.
I agree with the others. Blameshifting and cake-eating. He is still getting to have sex with other women and at the same time "take comfort" in knowing that you still have hope. Since you have filed for D, shut him down. He has talked himself into believing that he isn't the bad guy and that you are the problem because you keep doing the BS thing. Stop talking to him. Stop communicating at all. If you don't respond, he has no way to validate his own words, which we all know are false.
Have you guys tried working on the issues that came up when he started his own business?
Sometimes as the WS comes out of the A and starts to look at R they will latch onto an idea that seems absolutely right, but ends up being wrong. What I mean is that the WS is looking for answers, but a lot of those answers that we think are right really are false because it puts the blame on others. As we navigate through fixing ourselves, we throw out hooks hoping to find that one answer that is honest about why we did what we did, and our secret hope is that it isn't all our fault. That's what your WH is doing by picking fights and saying you aren't compatible, but continuing to want to be friends and have sex.
Take sex out of the equation and start looking at the pre-A problems that he is using as an excuse to not take full responsibility for his actions.
With all the other issues swirling around, I do believe that my STBXH has that massive stubborn streak inside of him. It obviously gets worse when mixed with alcohol and an A.
At this point, it's very hard to read him. I'm basically NC. Polite, but NC. When I do have to talk to him about the kids, he usually throws some extras in there. While I'm queen of the one word answers, he doesn't just give me a "yes" or "no" to the simple questions. The other day, he even tried to get me to feel sorry for him because he's so "frazzled" at work. I don't know if this is a dance around me to see if I'm receptive to conversation or if he's just trying to be cordial, nothing more, nothing less.
I ask about the stubbornness because I believe that those types of people take a MUCH longer time to come around to look at themselves and admit what they threw away.
I'm just curious. I know that part of any WS answer will be to not worry about him and move on with my own life. For the most part, I am doing that. It's just that some days I wake up and wonder what the hell happened to my life and how is it that after knowing and living with this person for 16 years, I am now caught in a situation where we barely even speak. We share children and barely talk.
What are your WH "reasons" for not doing what you've asked of him?
He says that the reading, the insight scheduling IC and the communication are just too hard for him. In fairness when he is honest with me I get very hurt and defensive. I think if he were being honest he would probably say that the OW was the love of his life and it hurt like hell to let her go....and that would piss me off no end, he would see my anger flare. You see, if he said that to me I would be thinking "Gee I spend 24 loyal years with you, always had proper boundaries to prevent an affair and bore you two children and you throw it all away for your internet Pirate girl who you "knew" for all of 9 months" So what sticks in my craw is that I was SO invested in the relationship and to him it was disposable.
I really wonder what love really is. Does it really exist or is it all in our minds?
Anyway at this point we now no longer share a bed and sleep in separate rooms. I think that for now this is the best thing for both of us. It allows me to disengage and try to disinvest myself from the relationship. It allows him to stay in his shell without me always trying to pull him out. I think I was MUCH too hasty in leaping to R right from the start. I should have turned my back on him on D-day and let him come to me if he felt like it, not chase him down...which is what I did. I was desperate to regain his love and now this humiliates me because I think the love was gone anyway. Yes he enjoyed all the HB sex and I mistook that for love (been a problem of mine all my life).
Communication in our marriage was zip. Oh we talked all the time, walked in the park every day and talked about the kids, work, music, tv shows. I took that for communication but it was really chit chat, same kind of banter he might engage in with a client. I couldn't figure out why i was not really interested in having sex with him but now realize that I didn't want to because we had no real intimacy between us it would be like screwing your best friend. When I discovered his A I wanted him like I did when we 1st met. I think because of the HB factor, but also because I discovered that he wasn't who I thought he was...i had disclosed a hidden part of him and suddenly THAT felt like intimacy to me. Pretty pathetic, I know. I realize that pretty much all my life with him I have settled for scraps, no wonder he had no respect for me.
Many a WS is described as being a child or an infant and the BS's are very fed up with having to be the parent.
Yes, this would be our dynamic in a nut shell. FWH depended on me to make all the financial decisions...didn't think he was smart enough or brave enough manage buying the house, managing the mortgage etc. And until only the last few years I paid all the bills too. So, you could say that our relationship was like adult and child, but not because I wanted it that way and in the end he resented the hell out of the situation and began to feel he was being treated like a child...but this was of his own making. I would have LOVED to have been able to be the least responsible party in the relationship and let someone else handle the tough desisions but I was never given a choice. Did I resent having to be the adult all the time? Yes, somewhat but I was also proud of myself that I could handle all of that responsibility and though he admired me for it (WRONG). Instead he resented me for it and turned me into a controlling shrew in his mind so he could justify his A.
I used to think we had the most wonderful marriage in the world. I was so proud of it that I would frequently say how lucky I was to have such a wonderful man but it's obvious now I was delusional, it was all in my mind. Now that I am more clearly looking at the smoldering wreckage that was my marriage I can see that I was always the one who was in love. I became just a paycheck to him and still am. He depends on me and I will be there for him as a friend, but we are over as lovers.
I really want him to find a new job. He says he is afraid of the unknown. His job REQUIRES he has direct conversation with OW. She has to sign off on his work so if she wanted to she could get him fired. I do see some of the blame shifting because he has made comments that I am using is words as weapons against him. When I asked how he said by asking questions about the affair. He felt I was being unreasonable because I was thinking of throwing away my pillows (OW had sex in our bed and slept on my side of the bed). At times he does apologize for the affair and wonders why I took him back. He has given me all the passwords to his email account, Facebook, and cell phone. OW's number is blocked in his cell but since he is a computer programmer he knows of ways to get around that if he wanted to. He says he doesn't regret staying with me and that he has already gone a whole day (or two I haven't asked again) without thinking of her. I mentioned how manipulative she is and all the games she has been playing. I think he finally gets that. When he wrote the NC she tried to call but I answered. She tried to get him to call by saying he needed to tell her like a man and MAKE his wife let him have one last call. And to top it off she wrote a NC herself. Thanks for the advice. I guess I can't stop being vigilant.