For me, THE FOG was all about starting over:
MOM was someone who loved me better (yeah, no kids/bills/jobs/in-laws or real life)and I could do it differently this time from my end too. Once I'd crossed the lines from acquaintances to (not just)friends to PA, I somehow felt I owed MOM something in terms of effort and committment. Yep, it's all f'ed up thinking, but that's where I was at. If MOM had suggested we actually, really, abandon our families and start over together, I probably would have gone for that.
I can't say why your WH is acting this way. Just relating my experience in case any of it helps.
I don't think I was aggressive, but I was angry at my BW. I was angry that she stuck around, that she continually met my challenges head on and in so doing thwarted my attempts to make her make the decision to D. I was doing everything I could to hang onto my fantasy and be the good guy by giving BW a very good reason to leave me.
I could be affectionate with my kids. Hell, I was more affectionate to the dog.
When you are in the fog, everything you say and do makes sense. But you are confused at the same time. What you say and do has to make sense because you are saying it and living it, yet somewhere deep down inside you have an awareness of how crazy you are being.
The fog makes fantasy of the A makes you feel great. If something feels that great, then what you are doing makes sense. So therefore what you say and do makes sense and it's really frustrating when others don't see it that way, so you dig in, you get meaner, more detached, become unwavering and say anything to get others to see your way of thinking. They don't understand, so it just becomes worse and worse.
What brings us out of it? It depends. The best answer is that nothing will bring a WS out of the fog until they are ready. And they won't be ready until they are willing to accept that they are wrong about what is going on. Wrong about the A.
That being said, while I was already battling myself internally with the whole situation, I finally came around when my BW started taking care of herself. She was going to be the one to leave. she was going to leave me with the kids, the house, everything. She was even going to pay me CS. She wasn't making the decision to D, she was choosing to take care of herself and make me accountable for the decisions I was making by my words and actions while in the fog.
You probably have heard that you shouldn't make any decisions right now. That's true, to a point. I don't think you need to make a decision about D at all. What you can do is make a decision to take care of yourself.
As far as the Wayward Handbook. It is compiled from most of the snippets and posts found on this site. And just when you think you have that book memorized, a new revised edition comes out.
[This message edited by Broken1Again at 4:08 AM, May 21st (Saturday)]
[This message edited by Broken1Again at 4:17 AM, May 21st (Saturday)]
I guess my question for WS is, did you go through this where you felt you needed more time to get to know OW? And is there any hope for us? Is is this the end? He won't come back home, and I feel like he would like a chance to get to know this woman.
Stepping back and allowing him to continue his affair will only make him disrespect you more.
Your best bet of getting him to see the light (and to respect you again), is to do the 180 (read about this in the Healing Library). The 180 is intended to allow the BS to emotionally detach from the WS. The added bonus is that it often snaps the WS out of the fog, which is where he is now.
Good luck. Keep posting.
BW- Me 41
WH- 42 (Striker9)
Years together- 18
Years married- 14
D-Day 2-11-11 plus TT thru 5-11
1 11 YO DS
Trying to Reconcile
My STBXH shows faint glimpses of guilt at times, but at other times he acts as though he's perfectly happy. We are both lawyers. I hired one of the best; he chose to represent himself (stupid, I know). As my lawyer says, he's paid virtually no attention to this action. He's late to hearings; he barely reads the paperwork and he was just ordered by the referee, on the record, to provide us with some alternative language in the parenting plan. I happened to see my lawyer out at a store earlier today - she said he didn't provide us with anything as ordered.
I filed for D but it wasn't because I rushed into it. We had been S for about 6 months and it was a few months after Dday. He wasn't really talking to me about anything so I felt I did not have a choice. I refuse to live in limbo like that while he gets to thwart all responsibilities for the kids, the house, the bills, etc., and go party with that pig.
So, my question is - what gives? Why stall the D proceedings or "act up" so as to waste time and money. Didn't he want this????? If he didn't, why didn't he speak up?? Does he feel it's just too late now so he might as well go out with a blaze?? I don't understand him. I know, I know. Don't try to make sense out of the nonsensical, but this is really the only forum where I'll ask these speculative type of questions because of the experience that we get from the waywards themselves.
Itsallgone Ė Please explain "the FOG" to me. What does it feel like? What is going on in your head during it? What brings you out of it?
The ďfogĒ is somewhat unique to each WS. To me, its describes the time when I was confused as to what to do with the choice I was facing with the AP and my wife. On one hand, my emotions were pulling me this way, two minutes later, i was feeling the opposite. There are two articles in the healing library that discuss this issue.
Itsallgone Ė I found out about my husbandís affair 4 weeks ago today and he disappeared for 4 days. My husband was loving and affectionate, complementary and connected. Itís like living with his evil twin. He insists on a divorce and has not wavered from that at all.... Do you think thatís what my husband is experiencing?
Saddly, if he is telling you point blank and bluntly that he wants a divorce and is taking steps in that regard, he is not in the fog anymore. This sounds like a person who has made a very definite decision. Yes, his change in behaviour is radical and abrupt but sometimes, thatís the way it happens. But the fog talks of confusion and uncertainty and being torn between heart and mind. If he is now looking you in the face and saying he wants to divorce, it sounds like he has made a choice.
Mind you, that doesnít mean that he canít or wonít change his mind again. The lure of the affair and the AP can be immensely strong but even so, sometimes, the light goes on and reality pokes its head around the corner, changing things once more. Faint hope but it could be there.
Wisdom from Dobler33 - People have affairs for myriad and varying reasons. Some are far sleazier than others, but the consequences are always the same - hurt, confusion, emotional trauma, the blowing apart of the foundations of your life.
Browniegirl - How many of you eventually figured out that your affair happened because you were looking for something that might make you happy and later found out that you were suffering from depression? How common is depression in WS? Have any of you considered that depression might be the real reason you were unhappy and sought out external validation.
Perhaps you should read the post at http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=226407
As to how common depression is in the WS community before the affair, I really donít know. I do know that a lot of WSís who end up here express a lot of depression eventually. I donít think that you can rule out clinical depression as a factor in some peopleís affair but I think that itís not as prevalent as self-esteem issues for instance.
overcoming2003 - You may never understand the "why". I did the same thing for a long time, tried to understand why my husband had a PA. There is no answer to that (I don't think). He doesn't even know why he did. I have learned over the years to stop trying to figure out why and start accepting that this is my reality now.
[This message edited by HUFI-PUFI at 9:06 PM, May 21st (Saturday)]
Broken1Again - I guess my question for WS is, did you go through this where you felt you needed more time to get to know OW? And is there any hope for us? Is this the end? He won't come back home, and I feel like he would like a chance to get to know this woman. So I donít even know if it's an affair...I'm just lost, so any WS insight would be great.
What is your ultimate goal right here? Do you want to divorce him or do you want to work on your marriage? Not only are you facing this decision, so is he. What steps are either one of you taking to communicate that choice to each other? You think he wants time to get to know the OW but isnít his absence from you a result of being kicked him out of the house? Maybe he is already under the impression that you have already come to a final decision. How can either of you know what is happening if you are not taking time to communicate. Youíre letting your busy life get in the way of the marriage again by trying to fix your broken life via texting. Instead of texting, can you have a real time face to face meeting?
Broken1Again - Not sure what my best options are if any to make WS regret his decision.
Go to JFO and read about eh 180. Tell him the new rules and the new boundaries. While he might be confused about what he is doing, you canít afford to be indecisive in your reaction. Be strong, put down rules and see what happens. If he loves you, he will come back. If he doesnít, well, thatís your answer right there.
I miss the days when covering my eyes would make my problems disappear Ė ANON
"What is your ultimate goal right here? Do you want to divorce him or do you want to work on your marriage? Not only are you facing this decision, so is he. What steps are either one of you taking to communicate that choice to each other? You think he wants time to get to know the OW but isnít his absence from you a result of being kicked him out of the house? Maybe he is already under the impression that you have already come to a final decision. How can either of you know what is happening if you are not taking time to communicate. Youíre letting your busy life get in the way of the marriage again by trying to fix your broken life via texting. Instead of texting, can you have a real time face to face meeting?"
Initially I emailed my WH and told him where I stand, that I want this to work more than anything but I was not willing to be a third party in our marriage. I also told him if he wanted this to work we would have to go to Marriage Counseling, that he would have to come clean, and cut off all contact with OW. He responded to the email although he didn't directly respond to my boundaries.
The day after I sent that email, I visited him at his parents where he is not staying and we talked. I again told him how hurt I am that I want to still be married and that I want to work through this. He in turn told me he is in love with me. (He said "in love" because I specifically asked him "do you love me? or are you in love with me?". He said he is in love with me but the financial, business, relationship stress is more then he can handle. He wants/needs happiness in his life. So I said for you to achieve happiness you have to separate from me and the kids and find someone else. He said "I don't want you and the kids to hate me and that is the road I feel will happen if I stay".
I don't know...I'm so confused. I set boundaries regarding "If you want this to work...this has to happen". But again, I don't know what boundaries if any I can make now. Maybe I'm just refusing to hear what he's telling me that he really wants it over. I wish I knew if he was in a fog...I just can't tell.
ETA: Sorry I couldn't figure out how to directly quote text...
[This message edited by Broken1Again at 2:58 PM, May 22nd (Sunday)]
He now says he was never "in love" with MOW. That she was the worst decision he ever made in his whole life. That he is ashamed and devastated that I, his loving faithful wife, has been so hurt by his own hand.
He now says he is truly "in love" with me and he now knows it as the truth. I, on the other hand, still love him as my H and the father of my children. But I am not sure that I am no longer "in love" with him. Something is just no longer there. I sort of feel like my feelings of "in love" were somewhat tied to my respect for him and my trust in him. I no longer have those two things. I don't know at this point if I ever truly will again.
How do I live like this? How do I move forward in life with him? Do I just stick it out and hope/pray those "in love" feelings come back over time? Or do I admit that I am done? Can I ever have a marriage based on true love with him again? I am 45 and he's 53. I feel so lost and "so alone".
He has shown ZERO remorse, sorrow, etc. He is still in communication with OW. He is now in a Fantasyland travelling back and forth to see her.
I am heart broken.
isadora1985 - I am not sure that I am no longer "in love" with him. Something is just no longer there. I sort of feel like my feelings of "in love" were somewhat tied to my respect for him and my trust in him. I no longer have those two things. I don't know at this point if I ever truly will again. How do I live like this? How do I move forward in life with him? Do I just stick it out and hope/pray those "in love" feelings come back over time? Or do I admit that I am done? Can I ever have a marriage based on true love with him again? I am 45 and he's 53. I feel so lost and "so alone".
Iím sorry that you have found yourself here, wondering how youíre supposed to move onward with loving your H when youíre not in love with him anymore. Right now, your words haunt me because LF feels the same way. Itís why we talk about a relationship instead of a marriage.
Like you, LF feels that the old marriage and the old love are gone. Destroyed the minute the affair occurred. Right now, weíre working at redefining the whole relationship. She is / has redefined her thoughts on love and marriage to accept the reality of the affair on one hand and trying to move onward beyond the affair on the other. Exactly how is something that you should PM her on.
LF feels that she will never feel ďtrue loveĒ anymore, regardless of what happens but she can accept that loss. As long as I remain faithful and remorseful, she will let me into her heart just to the extent that she feels safe to. As to how much that is, well, hard to tell.
I know that I can feel a lack of love from her as compared to what I used to feel before. Itís not a matter of actions or thoughts but rather; just the feeling that I lost something big and important and I wonít be finding it again. Perhaps even your H feels this too.
You mention that your love was tied to respect and trust. Ask yourself, what happens when his consistent actions start to prove that he is worthy once more of trust and respect. Will you find the ability to love him again?
LF and I right now are in the position of not talking about this topic. Weíve agreed to disagree for right now as we work on other issues. But you may want to ask yourself, what happens if youíre still in the ILYBIMILWY stage in 3 years, or 8 years from now? Can you accept living in a relationship built on mutual cooperation and ties instead of one that is built on a fairy tale of forever love?
Will your husband be able to accept this on a long term basis? Perhaps like me, he also wonders if the wife that he loves will ever feel love again. He probably worries that his affair might have cost him that intangible love which separates a relationship from a marriage. He may also be worrying if he can live with a wife that may never respect him or love him. Perhaps this is something that the two of you need to discuss.
It is a topic that comes up time and time again in the other forums and so, maybe itís worth searching the old forums for some posts. On the other hand, please feel free to PM my wife and ask her too.
Donít listen to your head, itís easily confused, donít listen to your heart, its fickle, listen to your soul, God doesnít steer you wrong - HUFI
Iím sorry that you have found yourself here asking questions. Unfortunately, it appears that while your husbands are giving you answers, they just arenít easy ones to accept.
Perhaps instead of focusing on whether your spouses will get their head out of their arses or whether they will get out of the fog, you should be concentrating on the most important person right now and thatís you.
Get your life together. Breathe. Eat. Rest. Get into IC. Journal. Talk to your BFF. Read up on the 180 and put it into place now. Practice the 180 with power and strength.
I think that a strong 180 is the most effective weapon at your disposal. The focus of the 18O is not to push or force your H off the fence and commit to you and reconciliation. The real focus is to create a newer stronger you that will be able to survive the hurt, pain and stress of the affair and the post affair issues.
While the 180 is very effective in forcing the WS to make a decision, that decision is being forced into its very existence because you are creating it. By putting into place very strong boundaries, you force the WS to respond positively in the manner that is good for the marriage if he wants to have anything happening. If he wants to stay in the house, then he has to go NC. If he wants you to stop the divorce proceedings, then he has to go NC. If he wants to visit the kids, then he has to show up without the AP.
Most WSís here will tell you, it was a very clear and strong line drawn in the sand that forced them to make their decision to drop the AP and focus on the marriage. Without that strong boundary in place and without the strong 180, the average WS will continue to straddle the fence and live in fantasy land.
Having to deal with divorce papers, having to be the one to talk to the kids about why mom and dad are not living together, having to find a place to live, having to explain to friends and family what is happening are the reality of life that can force a WS to re-examine the foolish decision that they might have made.
And even if the WS decides that leaving the marriage and staying with the AP is the right one, at least, you have gained strength and at least youíre not in limbo anymore.
Bunnyhop - Within my boundaries are green pastures, beyond an abyss.
My FWH is very remorseful and doing everything he can to prove it to me. He is very affectionate, very loving, constantly telling me he loves me.
It is always "weird" for me to read the love/not in love dilemma from the BS perspective. Just as when a WS brings this up, whether it is when they first arrive at SI and are justifying or after they have been here a while and found that they really are no longer in love with their BS, they face a choice - to stay and work on it or leave and set their BS free. In both cases, it is a difficult decision where the WS has to be honest with themselves about where they think they are at (not in love).
You sort of have the same deal going on, which is why I ask if he is giving you what you need? Is he giving you what you have asked for?
If he has, then is what you asked for really what you need? Or is it as simple as his A being a dealbreaker.
If you've put in the effort and he has too, and you still aren't feeling it, then you should consider your own happiness and how you are going to attain that. A life of never being in love with your spouse seems pretty bleak.
I remember calling my BW while I was on a business trip and telling her I didn't want to be married anymore. My intention was to just leave, give her everything, take care of her financially, not contest custody or anything. It was a very calculated move to give her a reason to make that decision to D. I wanted her to be able to say that I was the bad guy and that she was doing what she had to do in order to take care of herself.
In reality, I was a chichenshit and could not bring myself to be the one to file.
Things have changed a lot since that phone call.
I guess I am wondering if your WH is manipulating you into doing the dirty work for him like I was trying to do to my BW. By you filing for D, you are giving him the easy way out. If you cut him off, 180, and start to really take care of yourself, then do you really need to be the one to D? Or would it be a bit of reality for him to be the one to have to deal with initiating that? Might be a question better answered in the D/S forum.