What a week. Cried every day - not for long & not the crying your eyes out type - just weeping I guess. Pity party crying.
Bad week - even told H to go be with OW as we are never going to have a fulfilling relationship.
I'm really starting to doubt if I can ever get over it to a point where I can be happy in this relationship.
Wasn't it just a week ago that I said I felt myself being more loving to him without forcing myself to feel that way? What happened? Lol.
Went to new mc by myself yesterday. Lol. Always a good sign. But seriously, it was late at night, I would've had to get a babysitter & I knew it would be just giving a history anyway.
I think he was very easy to talk to and hope he can help us. (I do find it interesting to see people's reactions when I tell them the history, especially professionals like himself who must hear this type of stuff often & they still look at me like, "Really?" "That's just adding insult to injury" "You've really been through a lot..." You get the idea. Sort of makes me feel like - yes, what the F am I thinking?)
Anyway H has reluctanty agreed to meet him next week alone and then we will start going together. H really doesn't want to go and doesn't see the point, but will do it to show he is trying.
Honest: I hope you are not entertaining the concept of having your mother live with you. Start putting yourself first and just say no. I am certain this will kill you. Also, I forgot to add that I thought M3's comment about your H's potential behavior once you have officially pulled the plug was a good one. Go back to school and get yourself prepared so that you are not at his mercy. This really needs to be a priority and while I understand that you may feel that you are not emotionally ready to do it, I think you need to push through it and just get it done. I also think the experience will be good for you.
No words of wisdom, just wanted you to know that someone cares and is listening.
As for you, do you know where you want to be in a year? In 6 months? What will it take to get there? What can you do this weekend to start the process? What can you do Monday morning. It is starting the ball rolling that is the hardest.
old_dipstick, no grilling reports lately, hope you are doing OK. I did like your picture Laura posted.
deep purple, I do not know how you are able to keep your shit together in your sich. Are you settled on this for the long haul, or are you still hoping your WW will come around? Granted, my kids are older, but there are worse things than moving out and starting over. I worry alot about what so much exposure to FWW and I's dysfunctional relationship has done to our kids when it is time for them to have healthy relationships. Best wishes brother, I'll have a beer for you tonight.
allgoodnamesgone, Could it be now that your H is finally starting to show some movement in the right directions that you are able to mentally “relax” and this is where the crying and emotions are coming from? IDK, just a thought. I think it is also a part of the roller coaster. You have gone for so long cajoling, begging, for him to own his shit and start to work on the M that now that he is starting to do this it is going to take much time for you to trust his intent, believe he will follow through, and perhaps for love to replace resentment.
Laura, I am glad you are in a better place now with your H. I have learned to enjoy these periods while they last. If you feel things slipping or back-sliding, try to push through and maintain the open and honest time in the relationship as long as you can.
I found a local small group of guys who meet twice a week for yoga. I joined them last night and it was a good time. I am pretty sure they are all gay, but it was a nice session. I enjoyed having a small group to work out with and talk as opposed to doing a session at the gym. Plus, I am not the only old, bald and overweight guy in a room full of fit women this way. It is odd that FWW did yoga religiously during her A’s, but now that I am doing it she has no interest in it anymore. In fact, since dday she has pretty much stopped any regular exercise and is struggling with her weight. She seemed much happier and healthier while she was having her A’s. I think she enjoyed being a single woman much more than a married one.
Last night I talked to her about the recent plans that have been cancelled or otherwise fell through because she was busy or wanted to do other things. I told her that when that happens I feel that she does not want to spend time with me, or does not value our time together. She told me she understood how I would feel that way. She then went on to give me an excuse for each instance, and to tell me we are spending more time together than in the last few years. It sure felt like she was invalidating my feelings, but she says no. She did say she has trouble remembering what we talk about, and she does not know if she is forgetful or just does not listen to me when I talk. I do know that I or one of the DS can say something to her when she is in the room and she just does not hear it. At the endof the evening we were not talking (she was cleaning and not talking to me), and I am, again, feeling like I am a chore as opposed to a loved partner. I “rehearsed” most of the day what I would say, and I really tried to make this presentation “textbook” with I statements and feelings and not accusing or telling her what she was doing wrong. It still did not work.
With me perceiving FWW as withdrawing, my anxiety is coming back. Yesterday I wrote out a page of suspicions and fear. Rationally I know they are all just my anxiety, but it is a hell of a way to feel. I am back to replaying what she did with the OM, where they met, and mulling the inconsistencies in what she has told me. I do suspect she has an email I have no access to, and she is either using her work phone or has another cell. She also seems very eager to have DS and I out doing things without her. She has a work event Saturday and encouraged DS and I to go do something at the beach for the day. She is out for other work on Sunday. I had offered to have DS and I meet her for lunch yesterday while we were off for a holiday, but she did not want to. Later she said she had a lunch with girlfriends. Virtually no texts or calls from her yesterday. When I let the paranoia run its course I wonder about the new board member she was talking about a lot, and now for the last week there is no mention of him. He has similarities (board member with money, wife not on board with his volunteer work, etc) with her last OM; even the same name. She is travelling next week without me. We could not work out for me to go this trip, I kept suggesting the session in the spring, but she wanted to get the training done and the grant money spent. Now I find myself wondering if she is meeting someone there and that is why she is so concerned about getting a rental car when she is there?
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 9:05 AM, November 12th (Friday)]
m3: i am praying for baby paddy....and so happy that you caught it early on, early intervention is sometimes key....
i would like to touch upon a couple of subjects...
first: the marriage if it was/is dead.....
people change all the time, our marriages change all the time, circumstances happen that change who we are, not just how we live...and so be it...this is one of those times that change is inevitable....for some the change that comes can actually be a positive one, true the cost is high and sometimes the cost is too high...but that is something each individual must judge for him/herself.....
most of us were married to monsters prior to learning of their duplicities.....most of us were in our marriages alone...
so i ask...are you still in it alone? and/or has the spouse who was a monster or monstrous gone away?
second: the desire to know that the remorse is true, that the spouse does not "get away" with what they have done....
well there really is no way to know if the remorse is real in the moment....the ws needs to prove that remorse each and every day, by their actions and their words....and if the actions and the words match in a positive way, true remorse is then an active part of who they are right now.....
now with this comes a price for us bs's,....while waiting to see if the remorse is true we punish ourselves right along with punishing the ws...we hold back, we let fear guide us, we hold on to that fear...we actually grip onto it as though it were a life perserver...and in one respect it is a life perserver..
we fool ourselves into believing that if we hold back and hold onto that fear that the next time if there is a next time, or if the remorse is not true that we will ACTUALLY HURT LESS....and this is a huge fallacy we tell ourselves,.....because the hurt is still there, the pain still comes each and everytime the ws fails at what we need, we hurt.....
now the flip side is what if, what if we really let go and "allow" ourselves to really give them a true chance, not fighting them every step of the way.....giving them the rope with which to pull us out of the ditch or hang themselves.....in giving them the rope it means letting go of control, remembering all the while you are changed, you are not who you used to be either....allow your ws to prove him/herself....and when the ws does or does not ....then plan accordingly at that point in time....
letting go of control does not mean letting go of controlling who you are and doing what you need to do to protect yourself from a ws who does not get it, who is not in true remorse.....you still line up your ducks, you still prepare for all outcomes possible....you also do what you need to do so self-heal.....relying on yourself, but accepting whatever remorseful actions from the ws.....
and yes i know first hand just how hard this is....pride can get in the way of so much, but it can lift you when you need it most......being open and being prepared CAN go hand in hand.....
as for the holidays: i agree that we must all do what makes us happy and makes our kids happy...fuck the rest, truly....children, they are too young to have to suffer any of the goings on that plague us.....the adults in our lives, like mothers, fathers, siblings etc.....those people should either get on board with help and love or get off the next stop and go blow somewhere...
me: i like being busy, it helps keep my mind focused on happy stuff.... i love to cook, i love to give gifts, i love to make others happy so for me it the quiet moments that make me sad...so everyone needs to do what will produce the most peace within and to our kids.....
oh, i still want a tazer gun for my birthday with free use privileges on everyone i know....everytime i see stupid i want to zap it....
[This message edited by iwantamiracle at 9:11 AM, November 12th (Friday)]
I second (or third or fourth) the tribe members who fear for your mental health if you allow your mother to move in with you. Please don't do it.
Me, too. I think it's the time of year... holidays are looming with all their stresses (and pressure to be One Big Happy Family), the days are shorter, the time change messes with sleep... I too have been a huge mess, which flips my whole empowering soft 180 on its side. It's difficult to be strong and independent while sniveling all over oneself. We have MC tomorrow and I am interested in finding out what, if anything, MC has to say about WH's progress toward understanding himself and his needs/urges/dysfunction. (Which, based on what I've seen/heard, barely scratches the surface. WH shares very little with me so, who knows, he may be making great strides in secret.) He is much more present and attentive but there's a 50 percent or better chance that's just reaction to my un-presence and inaction. I don't trust his current state of being at all, as it can all too easily be explained by "Person X flips out = WH does whatever Person X demands for one week or until Person X seems to be back in the normal state." (I am Person X in this current scenario; though WH's twin brother,OW or anyone else in WH's circle can be substituted.)
You have gone for so long cajoling, begging, for him to own his shit and start to work on the M that now that he is starting to do this it is going to take much time for you to trust his intent, believe he will follow through, and perhaps for love to replace resentment.
I can tell you love those fucking ducks. Who wouldn't? They're so darn cute! We need smiles, and thank you for your recent happy posts.
Nothing but empathy, my friend. Peace.
Actually, peace to all of us. I somehow feel better today than I have in a bit. Probably because I had a good, hard cry for 10 minutes while WH held me. He's good for that. I said very little so *I* didn't ruin the good feeling I got from the cry. I did ask a few mild questions and WH requested that we talk about it later (later = never). Again, what he's doing now I'm cautiously accepting, while waiting with low-level anxiety for whatever comes next. It's that fear that you speak of, Miracle. It's alive and well and feels necessary to my survival.
Anyhoo. WH planned a date for us tomorrow night. His first idea was the place he took his mistress for their one-and-only date and when I said no, he argued his POV (but you and I went a couple months ago and we had fun) instead of saying (a) oh, I'm so sorry, I hadn't thought about how that might affect you, (b) darling Nell, I want us to have fun and if you don't want to go there we won't, (c) okay... I'll think of something else, or even something approximating (d) I had so much fun with you when we went and I love hearing you laugh. I stuck to my guns and was very calm about it. He was obviously thrown by my shooting down his favorite date night activity but rallied when he got to work and did suggest a very nice alternative.
You know the two steps forward, one step back thing? I feel more like we're going one step forward, one step back and spin around in circles until we fall over and vomit. Then get up approximately an eighth of a centimeter from where we started. There is movement. It's just sooooooooooo small. Too small? I don't know yet.
I feel that I need a wrap-up paragraph of some sort but have run myself out. So, as they said at the end of every speech in high school, that's about it.
It really supports what I am reading "Codependent No More" with letting go of control, but not control of ourselves. Thank you!!
Ats, just from an semi-objective point of view, it sounds more like your FWW is depressed more than anything. I truly understand that her actions may make you FEEL like she doesn't want to be with you, but her withdrawl just might be nothing more than the withdrawl due to depression.
I agree, keep watching to see if they way she is going to try to soothe these feelings is by acting out again, but your FWW has come such a long way. From all your posts, she really seems to be trying.
You cannot control her.
Thank you all for your thoughts about my mother. You are right, I cannot have her live with me. It has nothing to do with physically taking care of her, which I have done....EVERYTHING (showers, dressing, etc (TMI) )
It's her BPD, etc that I cannot deal with. She will suck me dry, and really has most of my life. I'm realizing more and more that it's not her fault. She is not doing it to me on purpose. Ironically, if she realized fully what she is doing to me with her behavior, she would want to kill herself. <sigh>
But, thank you all for your prayers and kind words. Problems with my Mom are not LTA related per se, but given with everything else, I figure you guys would understand how hard these extra things life throws you can feel so hard to deal with.
I just want everyone to know, that you are all in my thoughts and prayers. You really are.
what if we really let go and "allow" ourselves to really give them a true chance, not fighting them every step of the way.....giving them the rope with which to pull us out of the ditch or hang themselves.....in giving them the rope it means letting go of control, remembering all the while you are changed, you are not who you used to be either....allow your ws to prove him/herself....and when the ws does or does not ....then plan accordingly at that point in time....
I was saying that to a friend just the other day. Sometimes, you just have to let people fail.
My other thought on this is: how do you interact and deal with your WS? Is it effective? Clearly, your WS doesn't think like you do. I'm still exploring better ways I can interact with my WS.
Thanks for all the well-wishes on Baby Paddy. I will most likely get the call from the coordinator Monday or Tuesday so I'll update you then.
we hold back, we let fear guide us, we hold on to that fear
Miracle are absolutely right, of course. I know and see this about myself. But in the swirl of emotions that I'm feeling, fear is the one constant and the only emotion I truly, truly trust right now. I have no confidence in my ability to "read" a situation, whether the things I'm saying to FWH are helpful or hurtful, whether the depth of my sadness if normal or over-the-top or even how to interpret my fear. When you've had the rug pulled out from you, like we all have, sometimes the only control you have in your life is hanging on to the fear. I feel like the life I thought I understood and enjoyed is spinning so out-of-control. I have found myself acting in ways I would NEVER have expected. Certainly I would never have thought that I would even try to stay in a relationship where my partner had had a 4 year A. And yet...here I am.
In due time we all need to give up the fear in order to move forward. I know that intellectually, but emotionally I'm not there yet. I've had a few days of "numbness" where I haven't felt too bad or too good. I'm grateful for that right now. This past weekend was emotional enough for me (attended wedding) and I think my brain needs a break.
alas is the probably i think the second worst thing that we go through in this process.....and if you think about it, fear is at the forefront of everything painful.....
the first being the betrayal, then comes the fear that comes along with it, from being afraid that your marriage is over, your marriage is a lie, all your perceptions of the past now change...the list is endless...
but the worst part is once the initial shock wears itself down, we stay stuck within a fear of our own creation....it is paralyzing at best....some of us wish they would just go and do it again and leave so that now you have an absolute to deal with, dealing with someone who is now a proven liar is mind numbing if its not the most fustrating experience...
the first step is to acknowledge that some of your reactions are based in fear..
the second step is to really realize that no matter what you cannot control this other person, you can only control you and what you do.....
free yourself and your ws from this fear, to do is to allow him or her total control of their own actions, drawing your lines in the sand and either they meet your new boundaries or they don't.....do not stop living until the other shoe drops, do not stop taking control of who you are and what you do with yourself during this process......
sometimes living in that fear becomes who we are, and that is no way to live....
so take the worst case scenario, play it out in your head....
now when this worst case scenario takes place what will you do....do you have a plan, do you have your ducks lined up
now take the best case scenario in your head, where your ws says alot of right things, does a lot of right things...basically is trying and doing all that needs to be done to meet your new boundaries...
now what do you do?????
do you still choose to live in fear that its not real, that (s)he is just biding time to go back to being who (s)he was before....
or do you choose to accept what you see at face value and enjoy the "new" relationship being forged.....still knowing that if and when a worst case scenario comes a knockin at your door you have a plan in place....but as opposed to living and waiting for it to happen...TO CHOOSE to live your life in the fullest way possible...your plan is there, you are giving your ws full control of his/her own actions, and keeping control of you and your actions.....
always remember you are not the same person anymore....who you are is changed forever, and you may very well find that even though your ws is doing everything right you just cannot trust and probably never will feel comfortable enough in the relationship to maintain it...and that is ok......letting go just means living instead of hiding and waiting.....
interaction with your ws is simple...just be who you are and allow him to be who he is.....and if you come together on this great, if you do not, there is always a plan....
realize that no matter what you do you cannot control this person in any way shape of form....you can only control who you are and how you choose to react and act....
give your ws the rope to either pull your marriage out of the ditch or hang it.....
this does not mean you get a free pass, but lets face it, it really is up to the ws to fix this....now not all ws's are capable, and that is where a third party in the form of ic and mc is invaluable, so that they can aquire the tools needed to the job they claim to want to do.....and as long as the ws in complying and trying so must you if this is what you want....and that means you too must choose your marriage...2 people need to make that choice....even if for us it can be a temporary decision...until proven to be an unfit marriage, choose the marriage....if the marriage is proven unfit, then take the next steps to absolve yourself of that marriage....or at the very least if you choose to stay in a marriage that is not what you really want, you stay in a marriage that serves your purpose, creating a contract of a new kind of a relationship....whether that is staying for the kids, or the lifestyle....verbalize the purpose of the relationship and it will make is somewhat easier to live with if its not a "true" marriage....
[This message edited by iwantamiracle at 1:11 PM, November 12th (Friday)]
I have to confess that I have changed a little since that picture was made. I have gained 5 pounds and no longer color my hair blond.
Here is my grilling report. I am grilling some fucking ducks. My W is puzzled about my choice for the main course. I think she wanted me to grill a pizza.
Did I just see someone say that "you were right, of course."? Now what is it with this tazer fetish...........?
Thanks for the Baby Paddy info. I will be thinking of her.
I'm with ats on this one and I will have a beer or two for you tonite.
I'm out of time so I just need to say.
Hugs to the tribe.
Miracle loved your recent posts
what if we really let go and "allow" ourselves to really give them a true chance, not fighting them every step of the way.....giving them the rope with which to pull us out of the ditch or hang themselves
HANG THEMSELVES: I now think this is what I meant the other day when I said that if my NEW H cheats again or turns back into a monster I won't care. I truly believe that if he does I will kick him out with little regret. His actions of the last 16yrs have taken away his right to my love if he repeats his behaviour. So I am trying to let go of the fear - to give him a chance!
Laura, I am glad you are in a better place now with your H. I have learned to enjoy these periods while they last.
Yes, "while they last". I have had several triggers recently and I've just told him quietly not to go there. I was a little cranky about one. He said "raspberries" innocuous if you don't know that I heard him joking with OW3 about the way she pronounced the word (with her English accent). When I said "Don't talk about them" - he asked why and I said "because of a conversation you had with F..Face". He then left the room. I need to talk to him about this. He is developing a bad habit of withdrawing from me when he doesn't like me triggering. Anyhow ats I know I am on an up but sometimes there's a drop. At present I have a strong feeling the drops won't be as bad most of the time.
So pleased you have decided to follow everyone'sadvice about your mother. You have too much to deal with as it is.
(((((m334455)))) ((((Baby Paddy))))
His first idea was the place he took his mistress for their one-and-only date
I'm so sorry. This must have hurt so badly.
Your best and worst case advice is what I tell my children ALL THE TIME. Thank you for making me apply it to my own sich!! I think this is wonderful advice for us all. Best that can happen???? Live happily ever after. Worst that can happen - H rejects ME. Yes ME!!! (Cheats or reverts to monster). So if he does I don't want him. I will be better with off without him!! Doesn't even sound like a worst case scenario does it? If he rejects me I will travel, maybe even visit you all and find some cabana boys.
I am beginning to realise I can live without him. So I'm making a choice to give him a chance to make me happy. I will enjoy this time. If he cheats or the monster returns I will deal with that and get on with my life!!! (As you have seen i am lining up my ducks in case)
Hi handsome Have a nice day. H is finished playing with horses and coming inside so will have to go.
HUGS to the tribe
....her withdrawl just might be nothing more than the withdrawl due to depression
You were dead on with this. Tonight FWW said the last two weeks of IC have been difficult, and she feels that she has regressed. She gets a 2 week break now due to her travel and then the holiday. She is trying; I wait to see where we end up. I can meet my needs, but my wants sit on the shelf for now. I was angry today, but when she starts to talk about her history that she spoke to IC about I feel ashamed for being angry.
I don’t know how long I can or should wait. While she is working on her, life is going on for me. I hope I have something left when she is ready. So far, it has all been about her.
I get really angry some days.
It is good that you are trying to meet your own needs. FWW can't do that right now. She is barely able to take care of herself.
NOW is the time for you. NOW is the time to LET GO. You cannot control FWW. I truly believe that she loves you to the best of HER ability. I hope you are still seeing an IC.
There is a lot of things that you need to figure out and emotions still to sort through.
The only advice I can give to you at this time, Ats is give it more TIME. Your DS is still a little young. You and he are enjoying each other's company. You are being a wonderful husband and supporting your FWW in her recovery. As time goes on, and your FWW starts to get better, you may see that you two can still build a great marriage, OR maybe not.
But one important thing, Ats, for the both of you. No matter what happens, I believe you will respect one another, you both tried your best. Hang in there Ats. Let go for a while and wait a while.
Miracle: fantastic posts!! They are truly thought provoking and really hit home. Thank you.
Nell: I'm so sorry WH suggested that place. DOn't they ever think? Geez. I'm glad you stood your ground. Your sandwich story and the lack of empathy WH is showing....is he NPD?
Dip: grilling fucking ducks!! Oh my!!! No, no Dip!! We need the ducks lined up in a row!! And as Miracle suggested, mine need to wear bullet proof vests!! Not too tasty
No, we need the fucking ducks excited on the grass.....or did they get excited because of the "grass"?
[This message edited by honesttoafault at 12:42 AM, November 13th (Saturday)]
The duck was not that good. Should have grilled the pizza. I think I will quit grilling them ducks. Ducks & grass. Do you think the fucking ducks are smoking the grass?
Hugs to the tribe.
I have no idea if he's a diagnosable NPD; he's definitely got entitled dick syndrome, though.
I'm feeling sassy this morning, and we have MC in a few hours. That should prove interesting.
The "grass" first might make the ducks taste better!!! LOL LOL!!
entitled dick syndrome
Thank you Nell for the great laugh!
Dip, I dunno if the ducks were smoking the grass, but they’re in the freezer anyway! Does cannabis go with duck? Do I use it fresh or dried? Under while cooking, or over as a garnish? I used to have some cannabis incense sticks – should I get some more? What about the chickens?
I see things that aren’t there and I don’t see things that are so obvious I should be tripping over them
UK - I'm right there with ya. I have no confidence in my ability to "read" this man that I've been with for more than 28 years. I thought I knew him so well. Instead I look at him completely different now. I see things that he says or does in a completely different light. Where before some of the things that came out his mouth I attributed to self-confidence, but now they sound arrogant. My BFF just told me earlier this morning that there were/are so many times that she has had the impression that FWH just didn't appreciate me, that he didn't see how I took care of his home, kids, etc. so that he could work his two jobs and get accolade after accolade about what a fabulous guy he is. Most people that we know, family and friends, just think his shit has never stunk. I think part of the problem was that while I admired, respected my FWH, I always knew that he was human and I didn't fawn all over him. The OW gave him the adoration that I didn't. And now of course, he has lost what respect I had for him.
So, he wants to do something tonight and I know that it's a prelude to being "intimate." Tribe, I'm just not feeling it. I don't feel close to him, instead I feel wary of this person he's trying to be. I can fake being into it, but that would be just another lie. But then I feel guilty. Am I overthinking this?? Should I just go with what I feel or try and step outside of my comfort zone? Help!
I know that it's a prelude to being "intimate." Tribe, I'm just not feeling it. I don't feel close to him, instead I feel wary of this person he's trying to be.
I hear ya.
Last night I made a point of us spending some time together. We just watched a movie/tv & had a few drinks. It was a nice time, tho it could've been better I suppose if I wasn't coming off a week of hating his guts and wanting to end this. Anyway, as it got later, I thought, it would be nice just to end it here, let me get to know this "new person", let me comfortable with him before having sex. I knew that would never be an option with him, so it was a fleeting thought. Anyway, my new approach to sex post D-Day is that it isn't about emotions, its "just sex", right? So, I'm letting go & enjoying myself & I am for the first time in my life able to separate the physical aspects of sex from the emotions. (I also figure that if we break up I won't be getting any for a looooooong time, so I better get it while I can. Lol. )
Maybe not the most mature/productive way of going about things, but it worked for me (don't forget the drinks tho - that helps too.)