You are welcome miracle and thank you for the
Hugs to the tribe.
"How can you trust someone who won't trust you with all of who they are...including their worst truths.."
My WS is very much struggling today and I used SO many of the words and advice I have heard here. I told him that until I see him broken down, slobbery, bawling, drooling mess of a man...that I won't ever think he gets it what I feel like.
He said he had came home (not here-he is living elsewhere) took a shower and had to go back to work tonight. I immediately doubted because #1 he asked me to the movies tonight #2 You shower to go back to a filthy job?
So....He got angry with me for doubting him! The nerve. It was a huge fight. He said "I don't appreciate your accusations!" Really????
That is when I told him, I will 100% NOT be working this out with you. Until you really "get it" what you have done to me, you will never, ever be my husband lying next to me again.
Hours later calls me and says:
"I just hate myself so much for what I have done to you, that I get angry and I lash out at you, I don't know how to stop that..I literally hate myself"
Well figure it out and give me a call when you do! MAYBE I will be here waiting...
Of course, being the sucker that I am, I did stay on the phone with him giving a lot of the wonderful advice I have read here, and I told him this:
"There is a Vile, filthy, evil monster between us. You are peeking around that monster saying hi to me and being all lovey and flirty,sometimes even touching me, but never dare touch the monster. Your not going through it to get to me! I NEED to see you walking through it to the other side with me. I want to see monster blood,guts and goo all over you, a disgusting vile mess. Kill the monster!
Than and only than will it be behind you. Yes, it will hurt, no it won't be quick, count on it. Face it, own it, step into it and walk forward towards me or let me go now."
I don't know if he gets it or not because I always use analogies and I think he blocks me out when he hears one coming.
your first task i would think is to gather, find out all you can from him of his behavior......ask for a timeline of his affair(s)
as you are gathering, assemble your list of your new boundaries....
if he does not honor them it does not mean that you pack it up and call it quits, you can have this list and let him know that crossing these new boundaries means a reconcilliation will take longer if it happens at all......
as part of this list you may want to include:
these items at any point in time can also become dealbreakers, but remember don't signify a dealbreaker unless you are ready to deliver, once you do not deliver it gives a silence license for the ws to do whatever since there are no consequences...a nagging spouse is usually not enough of a consequence instead it becomes an excuse for the ws to do whatever (s)he wants...
and remember to breathe, every now and then take a few deep breaths and regroup..
And I am going to type my boundaries list now. I need to keep them within realistic view of what I can stick with. I cannot say "Were done never speak to me again you stinking bastard!" because I will certainly waiver on that one huh?
You are all so smart, sadly because of what you have been through, but what a wonderful testimonial service you are giving to newbies like me. Using your powers for good and not evil!! Da-Da-Da-Daaaaa!! :::Capes flying:::
Strongish... you mentioned that your husband and your MC/IC? were trying to rush your recovery....
well, I wanted to say that not all ICs understand Infidelity.
The 'old school' thinking was you either divorce or you 'get over it' right away.
Well, all of the latest research looks at infidelity differently...they understand that for many BS finding out about an affair...especially a LTA...is traumatic.
It is a trauma and needs to be dealt with in the same way that you deal with PTSD that is caused by any other traumatic event.
I would suggest that you get the book: Transcending Post Infidelity Stress Disorder by Dr. Ortman and tell your therapist/counselor to read it as well.
Your husband would also get some real insight into how traumatic infidelity really is (this is often an eye opener for the WS).
Here is a link to a very good article about Infidelity.Most of us have read enough to be familiar with a lot of what she has to say but, it's good to have all of this info in one article.
shocked: a timeline is basically a calendar of events of the affair(s)....
they can be very short and to the point or they can contain a huge amount of detail
for lta's its hard to be able to remember everything that transpired over such a long period of time for the ws...however there should be at least a fair amount of info that can be gathered within one...
it needs to be up to YOU on how much detail you want or dont want...
the basics though need to be in it...
how often, how many op's, was the sex unprotected, were words of love spoken
then come some details to lots of details:
where (can be a hard one, especially if your home was involved)
types of sexual encounters
were there gifts
what did (s)he tell the op about the bs
etc, etc, etc
i am a i need it all kind of person, there are those who aren't...once you hear or see anything you can never unhear or unsee it, so make sure you really want it.....
and when giving him your list, make sure he knows that you can add or delete any item(s) as needed....your marriage is a work in progress which means that you will change things accordingly...HE does not get to do that......he put your marriage in the ditch and it is really up to him to get it out...you may have to guide his nose here and there mostly because most ws's do not have the tools necessary without some help....but he needs to prove to you that he can do what you need him to do for you......
once he has done that then you BOTH work on the marriage together...but for now, he needs to work on the marriage and you need to do whatever you need to do help heal YOURSELF from this mess.....guiding him along the way (basically letting him know what you need, how you need it and giving him the opportunity to do so)
I don't know if he gets it or not because I always use analogies and I think he blocks me out when he hears one coming.
One of the best things about SI, for me, is seeing every day that I'm not alone, that I've not been the only person in the universe to experience what I have.
strongish, at njgal480's recomendation I bought the PTSD book. I was not able to get it away from FWW until she finished reading it cover to cover. It helped with developing some empathy from her.
Last night I was out with the funny, flirty, gorgeous woman I married. I told her the sAb survivor books sort of overwhelmed me, we agreed to talk more about where she is at and the implications for us. She did say that the IC work was stirring up all sorts of emotions and issues she had thought were finished and done. She wants the emotional intimacy with me, but things we can have fun sex in the interim.
2x in the same week
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 10:31 AM, November 20th (Saturday)]
you are not alone....and from reading your profile it seems that you have been struggling for quite awhile in trying to come to some kind of terms.....and again you are not alone...
Shocked: A timeline that might have major events, like when you might have gone to a wedding, or a vacation etc, what was happening with WH.
Our history has been affected and it's hard to come to terms with everything. I don't have any details or much info from WH, but I found out a few things. For example when WH was quitting smoking, he was acting like a beast. I attributed it to nicotine withdrawl. But I found out later that was when OW was pregnant with OC# 3. THAT was why he was acting out to me and the kids.
Because my WH can't even remember how old he is sometimes and is forgetful about things, I know I couldn't ever expect for him to give me a lot of details of where he was or when they did what. But there are big events that you may want to know. As I'm writing this, WH didn't come home from overseas one Thanksgiving, and that was when the A started.
It is very hard to reconcile all the new info. With shorter affairs, there is less history to rewrite. With a LTA, what you thought was your reality is shaken. The betrayal runs very deep. Much deeper than anyone would ever think.
Ats, I'm so glad that you and WW are getting closer and working together toward healing.
I think it is hard to know beforehand what will be the deal breaker. For many (most, all?) of us infidelity itself would have been a deal breaker prior to dday. Then we uncover the betrayal and we shift our thinking. I have told FWW and out MC that I do not believe I will be able to identify the deal breaker until after the fact. I have told myself that a new A I will force myself to D no matter my feelings, but for other issues like a NC break, short-term back sliding, ???, it is hard to predict. I do feel I am always aware of where my exits are for now.
Feeling the anger is normal and OK. It is what you do with the anger that defines good or bad reaction (honesttoafault told me this one). I spent some time calling FWW those horrible names at 6 – 7 months out. It was not our best time.
and if you are not ready to share, thats ok, i understand....i can be nosy sometimes....
I stopped by this forum a few months ago but didn't return until now. I guess I just wasn't ready to move forward in healing myself at that time - I just needed to grieve, not that I am not now, but needed to process before I could express myself here. I guess I have reached the rage stage at this point - does this ever get better? Limbo land actually sounds like a place I would like to be in at this point.
My R is going ok - WS seems truly remorseful though I am sensing some fatigue with my questions and emotions. Another reason Limbo Land sounds good
Just a quick thank you to all of you -- your help means more to me than I can express
I am glad you are in a better place, albeit not the best place. I understand the "fatigue" because I get the same thing from my WH. It frustrates me, especially since I just found out a few days ago, but, he is trying. He did talk to me for a long time today about it and towards the end he was acting fatigued, so I can't blame him for that.
Did you just find out a few months ago? Was it a long time thing?
Again I am so sorry. This place is so incredible, the people are so wise and helpful.
ats - So glad to hear that you and your W had a good night last night. You were due to have a break from the upheaval.
(((dp))) Hang in there. You may feel lonely at times, but you're not alone. We will be here for you.
njgal - I'm going to pick up the book by Dr. Ortman to read for myself and then for FWH. I'll check with our MC on Tuesday to see if she's read it. If not, she may get an early Christmas present!
Feeling kind of blah today and frankly I'm grateful for it. I miss my older kids so much but it will be very difficult to have them home next week. My DD is very perceptive to my moods and if I'm not joking around enough she will get concerned. They know that my H and I are having "problems" but don't know the details. Whenever I think about telling them I imagine their reaction, the shock, tears, rage, etc. and I get physically sick. I know that I can't protect them from every hurt, but this is the kind of thing that a parent should NEVER subject their child to. DS17 has an appt. with the C on Monday and I half expect that he will tell her that he knows that either my H or I had an A. Or he may be trying not to know. I'm caught in a catch-22. It is so hard trying to act normal when I'm dying inside. I've never been good at hiding my feelings. But, it will tear them up if they find out. I don't care so much for FWH. Initially I was trying to protect him, but after 4 months I'm over that feeling!
Just venting...thanks for listening. Hope everyone is having a good weekend without too much turmoil.
Strongish: Your kids are older now. If any of your kids press you for what's wrong, there is absolutely nothing wrong with telling them very calmly that you and your father are having some problems (or issues) and you both are trying to work it out. If the kids press you for more info, just quietly tell them that it is between you and your father and not to worry.
This way you explain why you are worried and they don't jump to conclusions that one of you are sick or something. It also doesn't put them in a position where they feel they have to choose sides or put blame on anyone.
The upcoming holidays are hard to deal with. There are so many triggers of past memories, of times when things were "good". All the aromas of cooking also bring forth very strong memories. Try as much as you can to associate the holidays to something to the kids or childhood memories. Whenever I make the stuffing for the Turkey, I always think of my grandmother. I still am using the her roasting pan. I try to picture my grandfather carving the turkey in the kitchen and everyone coming by and picking up a piece as they brought dishes to the table. He would yell that there would be nothing left for dinner! It just makes me smile. I try to concentrate on these memories. It's hard to leave out the others, especially those of us who have been married a long time.
I know I'm going to have trouble since I decided I will go to DS 30's house for Thanksgiving and xWH and his wife will be there. It's just that the old wound has been opened with the new one. But DS 30 seems sooooo very happy about this. He wants me to make the turkey like I always do. xWH's wife is a good baker (I'm told) and will be bringing something. I do understand. God I do.
When I married WH, my mother came and so did my father and his wife. VERY small wedding, just immediate family. My mother and father's wife were very civil and father's wife offered to take pics of me and my mother. Everyone seemed happy. It made me happy for that day. Everyone was together. All the people I loved.
This is what DS 30 wants. I do understand. So this will be my gift to him. I promised myself I WILL NOT even have a sip of wine (LOL, two sips loose my lips and I won't shut up!!!)
As I've said many times before, xWH's wife has absolutely NOTHING to do with us. He met her many years after we divorced.
It will be an interesting day.
Thanks for listening to my ramble.
My parents got a D when I was in college. The details were all very "shady" but it may involve my F being found in a compromising situation with another man. Not my issue...except that my M is still VERY bitter. We're talking almost 30 years ago and she won't even say hello to him at a family event. He has never said a bad word about her to any of us kids, but she never has anything good to say about him. As I said, our kids know that FWH and I are having problems and seeing a MC. So a couple of weeks ago, DS17 asks me that if we do get a D he was hoping that it wouldn't have to be like my mom and dad are. How sad that that is his frame of reference for a D. I told him that no matter what I would never, ever do that to him. For all his faults, FWH is a good father and loves his kids very much. That will never change and I tried to assure DS of that. Needless to say this was when we decided it might be best for DS17 to see a C.
So, I thought I was doing a great job of getting stuff for T-giving done early and then I got an SOS call from one of my bosses this morning. I usually work from home and have pretty much completed all the work that needed to be done so that I could take off all next week. Instead I'll have to go into the office on Monday and possibly Wed. all day. It makes me so angry that because some people didn't do their job correctly that I'll have to spend part of my week cleaning up their mess. I especially dislike going in to the office because when I'm there I get bombarded with more requests of things to do. When I'm not there they kind of forget about me and I can pick up work as I need to. So the pressure will be on to come in next weekend as well...pressure that I assure you I will resist.
God, I'm tired. I'm tired of worrying, I'm tired of being sad, I'm tired of caring. If I could just stop caring about FWH then this would be so much easier. Why can't I just accept that he will never love me the way I want to be loved, live off his income and have a nice life. Everyone would be happy, right?
On that depressing note...I'm crawling under my electric blanket and cuddle with the dog. He always loves me and has never looked at another woman!