....he will never love me the way I want to be loved...
I don't know if you've always felt this or is this just as a result of the A?
I've been doing a lot of reflection lately, so bear with me when I share this about being loved the way you want.
I married xWH #1 because I felt he was secure, reliable and responsible. He wasn't much of a talker or very outwardly affectionate, but he did love me like no one had. Although we didn't have long interesting conversations, I still felt like he was my rock. As time went on his alcoholism got worse, the security and reliability were gone.
After xWH left, my oldest DS often complained that his father didn't love him. I always reassured him he did. DS said his father didn't really talk and play with him that much. (his father left when he was 12)
When I was remarried and had my first DS with current WH, oldest DS LOVED the baby. He played with him, cuddled and loved him. DS #2 was a little younger, but very much like his father. Quiet, not talkative.
One day while we were all sitting in the living room and talking, the baby was crawling all over and "cruising" (walking while holding on). DS#2 (who was 16 at the time) just quietly watched the baby's every move. When the baby was about to touch the outlets, DS2 quietly got up and gently moved him somewhere else. When the baby was about to fall, DS2 quietly "saved" him. He watched him like a hawk, but didn't hover. DS2 let the baby explore without getting in his way, but protected him. I felt so happy when I saw this. I knew that in his own way DS2 was showing how much he loved the baby, even though he wasn't acting like the "big toy" that his older brother did.
OMG!!! LIGHTBULBS!! This was EXACTLY the way xWH was with his DS's. I used to complain to xWH that he wasn't affectionate enough, but when I saw this I silently apologized to xWH in my head. I could trust DS's safety with xWH more than I could with myself. It was his way to show love.
I shared this with BOTH DS's. DS #2 understood completely and always felt that his father loved him. I told DS1 that although his father didn't love him the way he wanted to be loved, didn't mean that his father didn't love him. I told him his father loved him with the best of his ability.
Strong (and Allgood, I'm thinking of you too), if it's always been that your WH hasn't loved you the way you wanted (not just since dday), you have to do some deep reflection. In time, if you feel he does really love you, and if it isn't the way you NEED to be loved, you have to think if you can live like this.
On the other hand, perhaps the knowledge that WH loves you to the best of his ability might be enough.
I know this is a little long winded, and I hope this has made some sense.
Love to all of you.
if you feel he does really love you, and if it isn't the way you NEED to be loved, you have to think if you can live like this.
In any case....while he is now sorry and "worried" he has made little progress in the de-compartmentalizing part of himself. He has read 1.5 books that I have put in front of him. (Never finished the 2nd one.) He is seeing the IC/MC every 2 weeks. I see her for IC as well and she says that she's not sure he will ever be able to meet my emotional needs. I want him to be a wreck....I want him to be a puddle on the floor....I want to see some tears, some EMOTION! He is very clinical and almost technical when he talks about us.
He does not understand why I question his love for me. He says that he never stopped loving me and never intended to leave me. And I'm supposed to be comforted by this?? No...he has no idea of what it's like to love someone the way I have loved him.
It's weird...I always thought he was the intelligent, stronger person in our M. Since DDay I'm finding that in spite of my own parent's D, I have a much more realistic view of what it takes to make a M work then FWH does...and his parents have been M for almost 60 years!
I know what you're saying Honest....we can't choose how someone loves us. But I can only be with someone that sees that infidelity is WRONG and can empathize with the extreme pain they have caused. I told the C that I would hope that seeing me the way I've been the last 4 months would tear up FWH. Like I said, he's worried....but it's like he's standing around wringing his hands and looking for someone (me, MC) to TELL him exactly what to do/buy/read to make this better.
I told him that he needs to win me back. Now, this is man that buys a book to learn how to do anything. I happen to know that there is book entitled "Winning Your Wife Back Before it's Too Late." I found it at an on-line bookseller. He orders almost 1 book/week for his Masters class but nothing, nada about how to survive an A, how to win me back, etc. I think he really thinks he's trying hard....but it doesn't seem that way to me.
UKGirl mentioned the other day that she doesn't want to have to tell her WH to not go to the reunion. She wants him to be sensitive enough to realize how bad that would make her feel without being told! That's empathy. My FWH doesn't feel empathy...doesn't know how. And if seeing me in this much pain hasn't jump-started it in him, then I'm not sure what will. The only thing left is to S.
I did send the paperwork in to the atty. I don't intend to even think about that stuff next week. It will be crappy enough without adding that to the mix. I don't want to be unreasonable, but I want FWH to see that I can, and will, stand up for myself. I may be down now, but in the end I will not settle.
Okay, way more than you wanted to know. Sorry for the rant. I really am going to bed now.....
[This message edited by strongish at 10:39 PM, November 20th (Saturday)]
You should NOT settle!
Just popping in - I've been skimming everyone's posts, but don't pretend to have read it so carefully so as to provide any actual advice.
BrokenPromise: Welcome! The men must be delighted to have another here.
Ats: Glad you're gettin it more often.
Honest: What did you decide about Thanksgiving? I hope your boys (both young & old) aren't giving you any grief about this.
As to what you said about not feeling loved - I agree with you. I didn't feel like he cared about me for a long time in our marriage - or didn't care about me the way I wanted. That led to me distancing myself from him and being outright rude/hositle to him a lot. Now, it's better than it was prior to DDay. On my end, I would say I changed his complaints about my behavior. I guess the only outstanding issue is that he knows I will never look at him the same way, knows my feelings for him have changed, knows I'm not really happy. So, that's pretty big, but also sorta out of my control to an extent. As for him - I do see that he's doing a lot of things differently, but I do not feel like he's that into me. That I have the comparison of his behavior with AP, as unrealistic a comparison as that might be, taints our relationship now. I see what a doting, loving, thoughtful boyfriend he can be. I think I can get to the point where I can rationalize the other crap - like 5 hours before DDay he was calling her at 3am while we were on vacation, saying God knows what & then when I confront him with the evidence, it's crystal clear to him that he wants to be with me, loves me, etc. All the stuff that's said immediately after DDay about how much the WS love us, missed the relationship we used to have, how much they want to stay with us... meant a lot at the time, but how believable is it? How sincere could it be, honestly under the circumstances. Sounds like someone getting in trouble & saying whatever the Hell necessary for damage control. Anyway, like I said, I can rationalize that or accept that for what it was, but truth be told, a lot of my emotional needs were not getting met (plus other stuff, but I'm willing to be more flexible on that) in this M and while I was willing to settle for that because I appreciated the safety and security of married life, that's different now that our M is not a safe & secure place in my eyes.
By the way, date night did not end well, the A was brought up in a round about way (not by me) and I was drunk & I did use the opportunity to take a couple of shots at my H that were pretty low...
This is happening too often on these date nights (which are at best 1x/mo.) I tried to suggest an activity instead of drinking, but in my H's eyes, he's not paying for a babysitter so we can go to a batting cage, bowl, etc.
Now that we will be forced to get a babysitter to go to MC, I'm thinking this will be the new date night. MC and a quick bite afterwards. Much safer.
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 6:44 AM, November 21st (Sunday)]
By the way, date night did not end well...
There were some struggles at the Atsenaotie household last night too. We had camping reservations, and I had stuff packed and FWW was getting ready, when I realized reservations were for 2 weeks from now. So I told FWW and we started unpacking everything. She was actually pleased and happy that I had made "such a dumbass mistake", went on and on about how nice it was to see do something so stupid instead of her.
Plan B, we rented a movie we wanted to see, and chilled some sparkling. When DS15 got home he wanted to have kids over for movie night. FWW said no, she wanted house to ourselves. So instead she tells him he can go to friends 30 minutes away, and we (me) will drive. So an hour round trip to drop him off and pick up, kill some time waiting between trips, no drinking or smoking, the evening was pretty well shot doing anything like watching movie. FWW was asleep when I got home with DS.
FWW did mention some A stuff, she caught my trigger when she mentioned some things. Went on to tell me how I no longer need to worry. I hate that. Want to help me? Be open and tell me the parts you still conceal about the A's. I told her I worry more about another blow out like her trip to her folk’s party in September than I do another A right now. In the past I knew something was up, but did not trust my gut, I will not make that mistake again. She told me in the past i just did not want to believe what I saw. REALLY? I wonder why I did not want to believe my wife of 15 years was sharing her time, her confidences, and her body with another man?
Honesttoafault, your story of your xH watching your DS touched me. This is similar to FWW and I. I will let the kids make mistakes, but create a safety net and keep watch over them. I expect them to struggle to learn how to take care of themselves and build self-reliance. FWW saw this as me not loving our children. She saw love as doing everything for them, and created entitled, needy young adults.
Strongish, keep looking at your boundaries and expectations. I think the prospect of “settling” is something we all need to guard against.
Hi GeminiDream, sorry you have a reason to be here. Serial cheater or desperate attempts over and over to fix something in the wrong way? I don’t know. I have 4 OM I know of, I suspect others in the past, but she will never tell me. What I know now, finally a year later, is that there are no more and have not been for the last year.
went on and on about how nice it was to see do something so stupid instead of her.
A light-hearted way to acknowledge how foolish she has been in life.
FWW said no, she wanted house to ourselves
A good thought/good motive with poor execution. Some people are just like that and it is mind boggling to those of us who arent. I always think about how something will pan out. My H, on the other hand, will make plans without thinking of all the variables, which I guess is part & parcel of a WS personality in general.
Want to help me? Be open and tell me the parts you still conceal about the A's.
I assume she's scared and this, I imagine, would be based upon your (justifiable) reaction to what you already know. I see now how more details/info is not necessarily a good thing. Here & there I will catch something my H will say that is something he dodged in the past as part of his minimizing. Something as simple as him saying to me that they were in an "established relationship" when I was giving birth that's why he called her really, really stung, even tho I knew that was why he called her. He was excited and called the person closest to him. And from a WS perspective, I suppose they fear that any new revelations, even of past actions, will be the last straw.
caught my trigger when she mentioned some things. Went on to tell me how I no longer need to worry.
A very good response if you ask me. She's sensitive to what you are going through and acknowledging your feelings while being reassuring and non-defensive.
I have to admit, I'm jealous...
more flexible on that) in this M and while I was willing to settle for that because I appreciated the safety and security of married life, that's different now that our M is not a safe & secure place in my eyes.
Another day, another fight with FWH. Naturally he's gone on a trip. I was feeling angry this morning....can't find a pair of jeans that fit me any more. They are all loose and I don't want to spend $$ on new ones as I know I'll gain the weight back at some point. I tried to tell FWH that this is an everyday reminder of the A...hey, why are my pants falling off?? Oh yeah, FWH had an A and I have zero appetite...now I remember!
He got frustrated with me and told me that I am standing in the way of "us." I'm just being stubborn. Yep...I hung up on that note. Not the right thing to do but since I couldn't slug him this was the best I could do. I called back to apologize and we ended up being civil to each other.
Not feeling very optimistic today Tribe. Maybe it's just the upcoming holiday that's making it worse today. Who knows....I just know that it sucks. Thanks for listening.
Until than.. (((hugs)))
I have to admit, I'm jealous...
Thanks for talking me down allgood. I do realize that FWW is doing better than the average WS in LTA, at least form those of us actively posting. Knowing what is too high expectations, what is settling, what is acceptable is hard. I did go out this morning and mediate; weeding meditation, not exactly Zen, but I like the symbolism of pulling all the unwanted parts out of my life. Your reply and some time thinking has me back to my better spot of being me today and not re-focusing on what is FWW thinking, meaning, feeling.
Stongish, my FWW at least now says she always loved me. I realize now that she was not capable of emotional intimacy, the core of love. She “loved” OM as much as she loved me, because she simply did not form intimate relationships. I believe this is why when I was presented with the opportunity for an A about the time she started hers (and once early in our M), I did not pursue. My intimate emotional connection with FWW prevented me from crossing that boundary (I did skate it early in the M ) She sees this and is working on this. It remains to be seen if she can change this in herself. She is doing the behavior better, but I do not believe the feelings are all straightened out yet. I think for many WS’s, part of the issue that leads to weak boundaries is this lack of true emotional intimacy in relationships. For FWW this is a result of her ACOA and sAb history.
I really believe that our love for another is a reflection of our love of ourselves. Our WSs did not love themselves, and were looking for someone to “fix” that. Since being with us (BSs) did not result in them feeling love for themselves, they see us as being the problem. After all, we love them, so to their thinking they must be doing it right. To my FWW’s way of thinking, it was me who was screwing up the relationship; otherwise she would have felt better about herself. Even though she was trying to demonstrate her love to me in the wrong languages, she say that I loved her and attributed that to her actions.
It appears that Thanksgiving is looming for all of us. We, at FWW's suggestion are doing T-giving at my folks. They are halfway between us and DS18 at college. He has to be back on Friday to get ready with the band for the game Saturday. I know this is going to be stressful for FWW and my folks. After the travel debacle in September they moved from quiet support to actively encouraging me to D. I know that FWW feels awful for what she has done to "their son" and them. I am already rehearsing how to stay out of the middle. Especially with my folks, they talk to me instead of DSs or FWW. Part of my new focus has been getting them to talk to DSs or FWW. Want to know what DS wants for X-mas? Ask him. Want to know if FWW liked a gift, ask her. I think part of this is fallout from the years of M dysfunction. When they would visit they would feel left out as FWW and DSs and DD would focus on each other leaving my parents and I to visit. We would have plans to do an event and FWW would change at last minute to take the kids "to give my parents and I a chance to talk". My folks have been very patient through all the crap, but I cannot be the middleman anymore and try to balance feelings between them and FWW.
Nofun--I am wondering if it's truly possible for mine to really feel any pain other than his own. How will we really know?
Do you feel like any joy in your life has been completely robbed and you are now just existing until this life comes to an end? I am not depressed, just feel this way.
I have no joy anymore. Just going through the motions.
[This message edited by ShockedandNumb at 11:29 AM, November 21st (Sunday)]
They are all loose and I don't want to spend $$ on new ones as I know I'll gain the weight back at some point.
I know the feeling strongish. After losing 60# on the BS diet (weight I put on during her LTA), I was reluctant to spend the money. At about 9-10 months I finally spent the money to have all my suits taken in and to replace my wardrobe. I like the slimmer look, it is good to nolonger need a XXL shirt. The new wardrobe helps to keep me motivated to continue to control my eating and keep exercising. I also like my lower blood pressure and cholesterol levels. Had dday not occured, I would have taken 5-10 years off of my life.
If she stays going the way she is going we will be fine.
I know, I know how hurtful it is to remember the things they did when in the A. It's good to vent it here. It's hard not to compare what they did and what they are doing now. I can see how much pain and anger you are feeling.
I'm glad that you two have started MC and continuing IC.
The only thing I can suggest for right now, is when you are feeling very angry, journal it out. Get it out. Write letters to WH and wait to see if you want to give it to him or not. Maybe you can decide to discuss the A or questions you have once or twice a week....and try to get to know each other again the other days.
Allgood, I'm sorry, but your old marriage is dead. You are now deciding or trying to make a new relationship and see if that will work.
I really, really feel for you. You are working so very hard at your profession and have 4 children to deal with (actually 5 if you count WH )
Now, I'll sound like a mother hen, but try not to make date night a drinking night. From your posts, it doesn't seem to be working. Perhaps you should just go out to a nice restaurant, do some activity that you can't do with the kids (even if it's Dave and Busters and you shoot pool), and come home after the babysitter has put kids to bed and ......well "see what comes up"? Discuss this with WH and be frank that when you guys go out drinking, it doesn't always turn out well.
Ats: I'm so glad that you guys are moving forward. It seems that you both are working hard and are appreciating yourselves and each other's efforts. This will bring you closer. I agree with Allgood, your FWW was just gently 'joshing' you and you can laugh at yourself too! It's ok!!
That is a good point about the old marriage being dead. The person we were married to prior to dday (hopefully) no longer exits becasue that person was someone who cheated on us. It really makes sense that this is a similar, but different person we are trying to see if can have a relationship with. Ideally, this wil be a better person. More open, more honest, better boundaries, etc.
WELCOME TO THE NEWCOMERS
Been lurking and reading everyone's posts but can't seem to find the words to respond to you all.
Feeling a little bit "blah" at present and finding it hard to get the motivation to do anything much. Is this another "stage" in the process?
WH is behaving and is trying in his limited clumsy way to do what he thinks he ought to. Lots of kisses and good sex but not much else. No TRUTH of course not even a trickle. I know he still wants it all to "go away" and is relieved when another day passes and I don't cry or blow a fuse.
OW3 is back at work and he is telling me he is avoiding her and wishes he didn't have to see her. Is relieved when she is not on same shift as him and/or he doesn't have to work in her part of the hospital.
After 16 yrs of practice I know he's a good actor but I think I believe him.
Sorry I can't respond to you all tonight. As I said I'm finding motivation (and concentration) difficult at present.
HUGS to all
PS Lots of the ducks are laying eggs and some are "sitting" - guess we'll have babies soon. Would anyone like pics???