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User Topic: Long Term Affair Part 21
Laura28
♀ Member
Member # 28997
Default  Posted: 4:53 AM, November 30th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Fun

I don't think money has anything to do with having an A. I'm only saying this by what my own H has done. I make way more money than he does so if I leave, he's the one that's fucked

ME TOO!!!!!!

He's just a very stupid AND lucky man that I didn't throw his ass out.

ME TOO!!!

miracle

has yet to confirm more, probably will never stand up and take responsibility...he truly is a poor excuse of a man, husband and father.....

Miracle OW zero was 22 yrs ago. They both say "Just Friends". I no longer believe. OW1 was 16 yrs ago, OW2 was 8 yrs ago (and ongoing when he started with) OW3 18 months ago. So..... Why the gaps between zero and 1 and 1 and 2. Probably weren't any = how many others???

WHY THE FUCK DO I LET HIM STAY???

Strong

Makes me wonder how many knew about my FWH and his A? At least two friends that I know of....

H makes casual comments about which nurse is screwing which wardsman or doctor at the hospital. I have decided to keep records and one day - when I'm ready - I'm going to inform all the BHs. Poor bastards have no idea. They have a right to know.

That's it for me.

HUGS tribe

Laura


Married 30yrs Me BW 57Yrs Him FWH 59yrs
OWzero 1988 EA?/PA? Gaslighted.
Dday May 28 2010.
OW1 1994(6mths PA, EA til dday).
OW2 2002(8yrs PA).
OW3 2009(1Yr PA).
Others???? Status: Not Divorcing..but.."You can't unfuck the goat"

Posts: 2729 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Australia
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 5:55 AM, November 30th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I’m way behind with the chat in here, so I’ll just get myself a green tea and find a comfy chair while it’s quiet. And it’s very quiet cos most of you will be in bed and I’m at my laptop looking out on a very snowy landscape.

m33, just want to say I’m glad Baby Paddy has a therapy schedule to get her up and running, as it were. And she has a house full of people who can help her too!

And sometimes, your Knight in Shining Armor is, on closer inspection, just some asshole in tinfoil.
I’ve read something like that before, but it still makes me laugh! And I don’t know about the rest of you, but my H doesn’t even look the same to me. I know he’s 55 and not 25 anymore, but before d-day (and for some months after) he was still as good looking, tall, smiling, twinkly-eyed, cheeky faced as he had always been in my eyes. Now? IDK. He seems to have shrunk, collapsed, lost vitality and joie de vivre. So my KISA (stupid fairytale ending believer that I was) did turn out to be “some asshole in tinfoil”.

Meltdowns are normal at any stage. A trigger can easily turn into one, as can a situation, a thoughtless word, just being tired or fed up. They do ease off. The first ones were physically painful and had me in a sobbing wreck on the floor or unable to drive (that happened a lot). Nowadays, I may cry or get very angry or both – but not for long. Instead of feeling exhausted, I just feel sad. Our lives have changed forever, as have our marriages. I was disbelieving when my doctor gave me a pamphlet on bereavement and said the discovery of an affair was akin to a death and the stages would be much the same. And our MC when she raised her eyes when I suggested perhaps it could all be done and dusted by Christmas….. It’s something you learn to live with. It has been very hard to have someone say that I did nothing to contribute to the affair. The only thing was not seeing what was before my eyes. But I rationalised WH’s behaviour
*He’s working too hard
* He’s under pressure
* He’s started a new job (three times during the affair)
* He’s worried about the court case (long story)
* He’s doing too much driving
* His golf isn’t great right now
* His back is causing him pain
* He’s got a headache

But at least:
* He loves me
* He's a caring man
* He's a good father
* He’s a good provider
* He's not a drunk or a drug addict
* He doesn't beat me
..... and
* At least he's not out running around with other women

My friend said to me yesterday, if you marry for money, you earn every penny of it. wise woman. See, I didn't marry for money, I married for love but I guess I GOT married for money.
I wasn’t bothered about getting married in the first place. But I did realise I was marrying “potential”. Neither of us come from affluent families, although both sets of parents had good jobs, made good money, have good pensions and savings, own their own properties. I married a man with an Oxbridge degree. Potential. I married a man whose parents had a solid marriage with the same values and morals as I had been brought up with (well, appeared to – found out a couple of years ago about MIL’s affair……..) So, potential. Married a man with career ambitions. Never made it to be chairman of ICI, which he says made him a failure, but nevertheless – potential. And he was willing for me to be a SAHW&M as it was security for him and he liked the idea of the boys coming home to a warm house with somebody home who had time for them. Who took them to after school clubs, who curled up in a chair and read with them, who kept house and garden and dogs and kids and husband running smoothly. Cheesy 1950’s? Maybe. And why should I give that up? My investment was to my family. His investment, as it turns out, was in himself. Would I go back and change that? Yes. But I can’t. I would advise anyone, male or female, to make sure they make their own money and have only as many children as they can afford to raise on that money. Yeh. That would be my advice to my 25 year old self.

As for wealth/status and affairs, I don’t think it really makes much difference. I stand by the adage of all it takes is inclination and opportunity. AP may target someone with wealth (probably more OW’s than OM) and some WS’s may fall for that. So, statistically maybe those further up the wealth/status ladder are more susceptible – look at football players, for instance. And some OW would like to stand in the BW’s shoes – and her house. But affairs happen right across all social stratum. I do wonder if WH felt entitled. Esp back when he was in his late 30’s with the blue chip directorship, the big house, top of the range company car, exotic holidays, great kids, great wife, rugby first team selected, blah, blah. Top it off with an affair, why not. But there again, he says that at the time he started on the affair with MOW, he felt a failure. So I deduce he was either seriously fucked up – or he’s lying to make me feel better.

I have contacted an atty. about a post-nup. I sent in the retainer and a summary of our financial state the week before last.
Good. Stay with it strongish. This is for YOU. See what happens when it comes to actually signing the agreement. I hope he does and does so graciously.

njgal, I went over and read your post (thanks Dip) in recon about male/female and sex/emotional connection. H said in the end it was just sex. He had sex with her to put off the day of reckoning. She meanwhile (he acknowledged I was right), took the sex to mean he was still emotionally connected to her. When he (finally) went NC, she was absolutely desperate and deranged. I remember one long text she sent him, saying how much she loved him, had he meant it when he said she was his life long love, was it just sex, did she mean nothing to him, although the sex was aaammaaaazing wasn’t it For her sex meant love. For him, to start with sex was the representation of love (lust? limerence?), but in the end, sex meant sex.

ShockandNumb. I don’t buy it. It’s possible, I guess, but unlikely. Have you approached the OW?

DS22 is home for a few days, DS16 has school closure and it looks like H is stuck down south and not going to France.
(eta I tried to make a shrugging smiley, but it looked like a spider! )

[This message edited by UKgirl at 6:06 AM, November 30th (Tuesday)]


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3328 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
nofun
♀ Member
Member # 24546
Default  Posted: 6:41 AM, November 30th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

njgal - my H had a group of friends that he hung out with on Friday nights. I thought it was a few drinks with the guys but it turned out to be drinking in a bar/club, picking up women/men. The "A group" was a mix of men and women, some married and they all covered for one another. They talked about their A's openly. And then there was my H's work place. He's a firefighter. I found out recently that his whole shift was cheating on their wives. And the one married female firefighter was also doing all the guys. It sickens me.

I'm mad at myself for being so naive. I feel stupid because now when I look back, the signs were there. But like the rest of us, we trusted our spouses. I will never trust again...I seriously never knew the man I married.


BS (me) 56
WH 61
M 36 yrs
OW - 55 - Howdy Doody Look Alike
3 Awesome Adult C
DD 6/7/09
LTA 12 years.
Confused: D or R???

Posts: 987 | Registered: Jun 2009
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 6:56 AM, November 30th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

UKG:
But there again, he says that at the time he started on the affair with MOW, he felt a failure. So I deduce he was either seriously fucked up – or he’s lying to make me feel better.

My WH says the same thing. We have a great life: nice home, two nice cars, healthy kids, enough money to live comfortably, purchase nice stuff (nicer than we need), and extra to put away in savings. BUT! He didn't meet the arbitrary goal he set for himself before he graduated from college and had just moved out of Mommy and Daddy's house. He talks about that goal even today. It makes me sad/frustrated/aggravated that he seems unable to look at his life and feel lucky or grateful. Instead, he looks at his life and notices that he doesn't have XY or Z. He's getting older. He doesn't own his own business (Donald Trump syndrome... everything will be great if only I could fire people at will and afford a gold toilet).

He and his twin boohoohoo about what they DON'T have, and I'm the downer in this scenario who says, but look at all the wonderful things we have; look at how lucky we are; lets do XY or Z to make things even better! Opposed to OW, who is a professional victim and boohoohoo-ed all over herself and furthermore told WH that he could "fix it" by giving her whatever she wanted (which worked, because as soon as WH provided what she wanted, OW's symptoms of depression/suicidal urges suddenly disappeared... which led to the obvious conclusion that WH is magical and powerful).

I did my MC homework yesterday... I was to write down specific things WH could do to make me feel "responded to," "heard," "safe" and "important/cherished/special." It ended up two pages, single-spaced. And most of it is stuff that people should just DO in a respectful relationship. Half of it is variations of the "listen when I talk to you without making me defend my feelings/thoughts/dreams/fears." There's also some "give me compliments, initiate sex with me." WH's list is mostly "I need to be forgiven. I need to do whatever I want without any input from you. I need unconditional love. I need you to be happy with whatever I'm willing to give you."

We'll see. On Saturday, my three months of 180 is done and I'll give niggling another shot. WH has done pretty close to nothing, though his attitude has gotten better since September. We'll see. We'll see.


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 7:42 AM, November 30th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I saw this in the news this morning and had to post, I am glad our Laura lives in Australia, not Florida, so this was not her.

COOPER CITY, Fla. (AP) - A Broward County woman is in serious condition in the hospital after being hit by a car as she tried to help a duck cross the road.

The sheriff's office report says 44-year-old Laura ...

Nofun,

I pray for all of our healing.

Thank you. With each week and month I am feeling better and more like I remember. I am returning to the optimist I was before M. As time has passed since dday, I am more than a little shocked realizing how much FWW’s issues and behaviors had adversely affected me. Now that the “fog has cleared” I am able to reframe events from the past and current feelings of anxiety and depression. Now I wonder not only where our M could have been with a healthy relationship, but I wonder about myself professionally too. I have survived; it remains to see how our M does.

The other night after FWW told me how wanting sex once or twice a week was unreasonable (none of her friends our age do it that often, of course their marriages are in worse shape than ours ) I told her that all three of the reasons I married her were unhealthy or gone, and I wonder what is left. I loved that she adored me, that should have been a warning sign, but whatever it is not the case now. I loved being able to help her, to be her KISA. Again, not a healthy sign and something I now know I really cannot do. Finally, we had fun, edgy, frequent sex (right up until our M). I enjoyed the fun and playful sensual us, it has been gone most of the M and looks like it is not to return. So I am left M to a codependant woman 7 years older than me with intimacy issues, and difficulty understanding and expressing emotions. Her sister, parents, and one DD think I am an ass. Her bil does too, but then he had phone sex with her. She does not like to be hugged, but will tolerate them. She would be comfortable having sex 0 – 1 times a month (she says 1-2, but actions speak louder), so long as it did not take too long or be too involved. Sex with OM was calm and finished in 15 minutes. We have little savings because she was sending money to her DDs, and an impulsive shopper and I was too weak to stop her.

m334455,

I'm learning to deal with and quash his verbal/emotional abusive bull…

How sad that there would even be a reason to acknowledge such an accomplishment. I really do wonder if part of the time equation in recovery is just us adjusting to settling with less than we deserve.

old_dipstick, anyone can be a fair weather BBQ’er, but You da’ Man! Still, it wasn’t freezing or snowing.

Now dadof4 did it in freezing weather. I am glad he did not follow the new trend of creating a fire when frying the turkey.

strongish,

…like she and FWH are looking to me to come up with the solution on how to trust him again/feel happy again

I understand this. I often just wanted the IC to tell me what to do or how to do it! I understand now that this is my job to figure out. In my case, I am wondering if I won’t finish healing better if I am separated from FWW so I do not keep tripping over her crap.

Shockedandnumb, add me to the list very skeptical of a 5 year relationship with kissing only. In each of FWW’s affairs, the time to the first kiss was much shorter than the time from the first kiss to the first sex.

Njgal480 and ukgirl, glad to hear from you and thanks for the posts.

--Ats


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3968 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
ShockedandNumb
♀ Member
Member # 30151
Default  Posted: 8:23 AM, November 30th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I’ll just get myself a green tea and find a comfy chair while it’s quiet. And it’s very quiet cos most of you will be in bed and I’m at my laptop looking out on a very snowy landscape.

OMG UK! This sounds so cozy and relaxing.

ShockandNumb. I don’t buy it. It’s possible, I guess, but unlikely. Have you approached the OW?

No I have not, I tried that years ago.. She is a bigger liar than my H so until she gets to a place where she is ready to own what she has done, there will be no wasting my time. She is currently lying to her XBS now about all of it.. None of it ever happened. And her H KNOWS it did, he has recorded proof.. She is a very lost lady wrapped in a pretty little bow.

The "A group" was a mix of men and women, some married and they all covered for one another. They talked about their A's openly.

Nofun-This sounds like something out of a frickin movie of the week! I can not believe that a "group" of people can all feel "ok" with what they are doing? Are that that many sick people in the world that they easily found each other? I am truly scared now.. I at least hoped they were few and far between, scattered across the Globe.. Now I am feeling like the show "Walking Dead" They are everywhere!!


WH's list is mostly "I need to be forgiven. I need to do whatever I want without any input from you. I need unconditional love. I need you to be happy with whatever I'm willing to give you."


Imnell-- I don't know why but this doesn't sit well with me. Whatever your willing to give? So if it is just bread crumbs and no serious effort, you have to be happy? We gave above and beyond during their selfish A's.. I think we are owed more than just what they are willing to give.. Like it's so much work to be kind to us?

IDK..maybe I just read this wrong...

I agree with all of you--I do not see how my H and OW did not have sex after 5 years. But, here's the thing, OW could get a "Ah-Ha" moment and wake up someday and decide to purge herself of all the truth..
My H may be fully into R when that happens, and than "Bam!" His lie comes out and his world with me is over. Better to tell now, because at least one other person holds your secret, and it could very well come out.

I know my H's thinking though..He would have the nerve to say "So yes, I did sleep with her, but that happened how many years ago?? Are you really going to end our happy marriage NOW over that?" he doesn't believe in divulging, just burying.

You can't bury something alive, it creeps out and grabs your ankles....


D-Day#1-11/2005--me-8 weeks pregnant
D-Day#2 11/17/2010 same OW-LTA
BS(me)44
WS(him)42 yrs old.
4 daughters/19+ yr marriage
Nothing hurts more than realizing he meant everything to you, but you meant nothing to him....

Posts: 407 | Registered: Nov 2010
old dipstick
♂ Member
Member # 25598
Default  Posted: 8:37 AM, November 30th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ats.

While I was cooking I was wishing it would snow. I hate snow but not as much as rain in the 30 degree range. I have grilled in single digit temps with a wind chill below zero. Much more challenging than just sitting around in shorts and sandals, drinking beer. Dadof4 is also tougher than those cabanna boys. Deep fried turkey is good. It helps if you don't burn down the house while frying.

Shocked.

Five years of only kissing? Hard to believe. To steal a book title, "Not Just Kissing!" They always try to minimize. My W said that OW#1 wanted a BJ but she did not do that. Wow. I felt so much better. She fucked him but at least she did not do the BJ. You are right, this is all in the cheaters handbook.

Laura.

I do realize that some men don't pay attention to their wives when they speak. So the foot is on the other hand at your house. Thanks for your nice words and I am gald that you were not in Florida helping ducks cross the road.

dadof4.

I am glad I made you smile. It was not too damn funny when the grilling/frying was going on was it?

Hugs to the tribe.


Her WW 60
Me BH 60
M 36 yr
D-day#1 fall of 76 OM#1 2NS
D-day#2 summer of 89 OM#2 LTA 8 yrs OM#3 Short Term A


Posts: 751 | Registered: Sep 2009
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 8:59 AM, November 30th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ShockedandNumb,

OW could get a "Ah-Ha" moment and wake up someday and decide to purge herself of all the truth..
My H may be fully into R when that happens, and than "Bam!" His lie comes out and his world with me is over. Better to tell now, because at least one other person holds your secret, and it could very well come out.

I have this fear too (about my FWW, not your WS ). There is information she has not and will not share about her A's. She has told me as little as she feels that she can to get by. At some point in the future I may stumble across something, or someone like her BIL will decide to come clean with his BW and I will find out there was PA not just EA. At that point I have promised myself I will pack it in and leave her. It may be that just knowing she is not willing to be fully honest and transparent with me is ultimately enough to prevent successful R.

I also appreciate that FWW, and I suspect all WSs, has worked herself into a corner. For 7 months after dday she lied and denied. When she did share additional information it set us way back. We are doing better now, and if she were to 'fess up new material it would start the downward spiral again. So, the longer she witholds the more difficult it becomes to be honest, and the more important it becomes to have been honest.

I do not believe that FWW and I, or any couple, can successfully R and sustain it if the WS is "sitting on" the knowledge they have lied and mis-led the BS. I think it will eat at them and destroy their efforts to repair their self-esteem.

old_dipstick, enjoy that cold weather. Often it is too hot even at night for me to get a good smoke going in the smoker. I need an air-conditioned smoker here in FL.

--Ats


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3968 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 10:31 AM, November 30th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

dip:
Deep fried turkey is good. It helps if you don't burn down the house while frying.

Last Thanksgiving my mother reported (in typical small city fashion) that an old HS boyfriend's parents garage burned down because of the deep fryer! Bad me, I thought it was funny... also was not surprised by it happening to these fine folks... and yes, I really do like the family.

Shocked:
I didn't say I will tolerate the whole "you'll eat it and you'll like it" attitude. But that's where his head seems to be (at least right now). I can't make him do anything, I can't make him feel grateful for what he's been gifted with in this life, I can't make him separate himself from toxic people. I can only acknowledge the truth and decide if I want to continue to work on a relationship with someone who thinks this way and may or may not ever wake up and make some serious changes. (I am feeling angry today and it makes me all confident and swaggery.)

And, seriously? I don't believe your WH. Of course, I don't believe anything my WH says any longer either. There's a chance that what he tells me is the truth, but an equal chance that he's lying. I don't like this, but every time he tells me anything at all, a little voice in my head adds "...said the liar."

ats:
Okay. Different perspective. And possibly TMI. Being a woman with a MUCH lower sex drive than my husband, I will say that I have gone through long periods where I didn't even think about sex, and it honestly seemed like a big hassle (sex or sleep? um, well, I FEEL tired, and I don't FEEL sexy or turned on... sooo...duh). I'm talking pre-A here. But then I had a little sit-down with myself and said, "You know what, Nell? Your husband has told you that when you initiate sex with him it makes him happy. You know how to get "in the mood." So WHY AREN'T YOU DOING IT? You're not giving your all to this marriage, so if you want it to work, let go of your own crap and start giving your all." So I set a goal of meeting this need of my husband's at least twice a week (more if I felt like it, but twice a week baseline) and then I followed through. It was not easy. It was not natural. It was not easy to maintain my "mood" through homework, dinner, bathtime, bedtime, story time, TV while waiting for the kids to drop off to sleep while my husband ignored me, etc. But it's one of the things I DID to meet my husband's needs. Because meeting my husband's needs is (or was at that time, anyway) a very high priority. But it took a while to get over myself and give this to him. Now, of course, after finding out about his selfish, lousy behavior everything has changed. But that's neither here nor there. I don't know if that helps or not. But there you go. A glimpse into Nell's psyche/bedroom. I hope I haven't caused anyone any nightmares.

I do not believe that FWW and I, or any couple, can successfully R and sustain it if the WS is "sitting on" the knowledge they have lied and mis-led the BS. I think it will eat at them and destroy their efforts to repair their self-esteem.

Good point. Although the visual of WH sitting on something and having it eat at him makes me giggle in a sick, twisted way. So thanks for that.

Jeez. Obviously my brain is in overdrive.


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
ShockedandNumb
♀ Member
Member # 30151
Default  Posted: 11:19 AM, November 30th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And, seriously? I don't believe your WH. Of course, I don't believe anything my WH says any longer either. There's a chance that what he tells me is the truth, but an equal chance that he's lying. I don't like this, but every time he tells me anything at all, a little voice in my head adds "...said the liar."

Truer words were never spoken.. I was saying earlier how my WH is so incredible at lying, that he acts no differently than when he is telling the truth. I don't think a polygraph could catch him because he is a master. That is very scary to me..


D-Day#1-11/2005--me-8 weeks pregnant
D-Day#2 11/17/2010 same OW-LTA
BS(me)44
WS(him)42 yrs old.
4 daughters/19+ yr marriage
Nothing hurts more than realizing he meant everything to you, but you meant nothing to him....

Posts: 407 | Registered: Nov 2010
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 11:24 AM, November 30th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I really do wonder if part of the time equation in recovery is just us adjusting to settling with less than we deserve.
The fact is, we had less. We just didn’t know it. What we had was an illusion. Now we are dealing with the reality. Which is less than we thought we had. Kind of like buying an 13.5 tog all seasons duvet to find it was just a 10 tog that’ll-do duvet. And then WS went off to find the other 3.5 missing to keep them warm while we just put on pyjamas and bedsocks and made do. Not sure what I’m saying here – funny analogy that came to mind.
As to the trust issue, that is wrapped up in your earlier statement. We trust less because we found we had less than we thought and wonder where the rest of it went. Truth is, it was stolen from us by the one we trusted the most. The only thing a FWS can do is be an open book and be trustworthy as much, if not more so, for themselves as for us.

I can not believe that a "group" of people can all feel "ok" with what they are doing?
They belong to a “club”. A secret club. And those secrets bind them to each other. The intimacy they have with their AP’s is shared with the rest of the group. It’s a tribal sense of belonging when others are specifically excluded. They recognise it as out of the norm. Thick as thieves may as well be clannish as conspirators. Oooh! How about a collective noun? A harlot of adulterers! Or a brag? Or a covert?

So yes, I did sleep with her, but that happened how many years ago??
If someone commits murder, does that make it less of a crime if the perpetrator is found years later? And, I dunno about anywhere else, but in the UK you can file for divorce under adultery anytime within a 6 month window depending on when you found out, or when the last act took place. So, if I were to get information regarding my suspicions about WH's previous affairs, I could still D him on the grounds of adultery.

So, the longer she witholds the more difficult it becomes to be honest, and the more important it becomes to have been honest.
I’ve never wanted sex “details”, just whether or not WH did anything different with MOW. He said no. I’m not so bothered about that, so I’ve never pushed the point. I was far more bothered that they spent nights and little lovey sojourns together. It was more about the shared intimacy than the sex. It was all the small things, the stuff that made it a “relationship” I could deal and dismiss the sex more easily than the emotional entanglement. That’s what did it for me. That and withholding information or admitting after I had slapped the proof in front of him – that did the real damage.

Just this morning, we were having a conversation about him telling a little lie to a colleague - he lied about where he was b/c he didn’t want to get stuck in the snow-bound traffic knowing he was never going to make it in time anyway. He was on his way back to the hotel. He interjected with “I would never lie to you. I’ll never lie to you again.” And you know what? It meant nothing. What could I say? A friend said to me that if he said it was raining, I would have to look out of the window to check. Sadly, she was right.

Nell, you have your list and he has his whinges. He may feel they are valid, but he is thinking very much about HIM still and it is things like this when the MC should pick up and run with why he is being unreasonable and getting him to look at his behaviour, his actions and the resulting effect on those around him. His “list” is telling. Use it to your advantage. I would!!!


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3328 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
ShockedandNumb
♀ Member
Member # 30151
Default  Posted: 11:52 AM, November 30th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And, I dunno about anywhere else, but in the UK you can file for divorce under adultery anytime within a 6 month window depending on when you found out, or when the last act took place. So, if I were to get information regarding my suspicions about WH's previous affairs, I could still D him on the grounds of adultery.

My state is a wonderful "no fault" divorce.. You can just up and leave your family with no consequences.. It' a lovely system...


D-Day#1-11/2005--me-8 weeks pregnant
D-Day#2 11/17/2010 same OW-LTA
BS(me)44
WS(him)42 yrs old.
4 daughters/19+ yr marriage
Nothing hurts more than realizing he meant everything to you, but you meant nothing to him....

Posts: 407 | Registered: Nov 2010
lostsuol
♀ Member
Member # 13706
Default  Posted: 12:46 PM, November 30th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello tribe. I'm home from visiting my family on the West coast and trying to get adjusted to the cold and snow that appeared while I was gone. I got to know my sweet little grandson again and spent time with my dear sister who has new health challenges that weren't resolved when I left. (FnF... you were in my thoughts a lot as I know you are all too familiar with the situation as she & I tried to be strong for each other once again.)

I've skimmed the pages and thought "me too!" so much of the time, it reinforces how similar but different our situations are and how much I appreciate knowing I'm not alone and support is here 24/7. On the other hand, it's discouraging to see the numbers on SI increasing and new names here in LTA.

Lots of food for thought in today's posts. UKgirl said so much that rings true with me. So did Ats. I need to get ready for a meeting so I'll close with {{{LTA}}}


Posts: 808 | Registered: Feb 2007 | From: Canada
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 7:08 PM, November 30th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I confirm that time does make things easier.


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 8:15 PM, November 30th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

" WH's list is mostly "I need to be forgiven. I need to do whatever I want without any input from you. I need unconditional love. I need you to be happy with whatever I'm willing to give you."

Wow, Nell, did my WH and yours read from the same script? It's scarey.

We did have have a lot less than we thought. Actually, we started to put up with less and less over the years and just got used to it and believed that was the status quo and accepted less than we deserve. Then we find out why we got less and less and it angers us to no end. With first xWH, he was/is an alcoholic and I put up with so much crap. (Luckily he wasn't verbally or physically abusive he just was never home). Then he had the affair!!!
Current WH kept me satisfied with pretty words and compliments and endless pledges of undying love and it was all an illusion to gaslight me and to allow him to do whatever he wanted.

About the "group" of people or 'clique". I agree to that, especially in those professions where there is a fraternity feeling (including the women on the job too) firefighters, police, etc. Also if the spouses are hanging out with the "gang" at the local bar many nights a week. The drinking lowers inhibitions and the group behavior makes it seem like it's "acceptable"....everyone's doing it. How nauseating!!

I concur with everyone to thank you NJgal for all your help.

Ats: The trauma is winding down. I am so glad to see that you are starting to really heal and can look at the reality of your situation. There is no rush. But I am so very, very much in admiration of you and how you have handled all of this.
Take more time and keep healing. I am really glad that your WW has started down the path to heal herself. In your sitch, your WW has done something really bad with her A's, but she is facing the hard job as to why she did and appears to be remorseful.
But now you are faced with some reality about what might be. I think that you may be able to forgive her and if you do leave each other, I feel it will be with respect that you both did try.
You may want to extend your decision day until well after the New Year's to see how it goes. Perhaps, in time and healing, your WW may want to feel more physically intimate with you. In her sitch with all that has happened to her, she may not want to have sex, and it has NOTHING to do with you at all. It's her.

I'm going through a different kind of rollercoaster now. It's one of acceptance and then grief and mourning. I'm trying to make some plans and not feel so paralyzed. I really haven't cried in a while, but have been a lot this past week. I have to go in my room and bawl for a half hour, but then I seem to be able to get up again to referee an argument between the DS's.

I think the thing I'm trying to decide right now is whether to wait until after the holidays to tell WH I'm done, or just really move with getting my ducks in a row first and wait until after the New Year's? WH says he's coming in a week or two ( I really wish he was NOT coming at all!!! I do NOT WANT HIM TO COME). I don't want to open a can of worms with Christmas coming etc.
Any suggestions, or mojo?

I wish I could give the right words to say to each and every one of you to make you feel better. Just know that you are all in my thoughts and prayers.

{{{{tribe}}}}


Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 8:55 PM, November 30th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi honesttoafault, thank you for the feedback. ((honesttoafault)) I have an IC session tomorrow, and hope he can help me sort through what I am feeling and want. Life with FWW is better now than it has been for a long time, so I can bide my time for awhile. The A stuff I am getting past. It bothers me she is still withholding information, but that is the past. The sex may be a problem. It is not enough for her to "make herself available" once or twice a week, but I want a partner who enjoys me like I enjoy her and who looks forward to sex.

UKgirl, you are right that we had less than we deserved, but did not know it. I assumed that when FWW married me she felt the same attachment and emotionally intimate connection I did. I always wondered and asked her during our M how she could think so poorly of a person she loved. I now know she was incapable of commitment to me. As she put it once, she wore an emotional body condom to protect herself. I never had a true spouse. I had a friend and roommate, and an emotionally unstable one at that.

I think I know what I want. I want a “do over”.

--Ats


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3968 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
strongish
♀ Member
Member # 29259
Default  Posted: 10:24 PM, November 30th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

we had less than we deserved, but did not know it
I agree with the consensus here. It's only in retrospect can we see that for most of us, our M was lacking intimacy.

Honest....I wish I had the words to help you. My FWH travels 5-6 nights/week and my life is calmer when he is gone. (Except for the fact that I can't trust what he's doing or who he is with!) At first I was getting very anxious whenever he was away on a trip but now I'm just grateful that he's not home. When he's here we're both walking on eggshells, trying not to piss the other one off, and trying to say and do all the right things. How sad that after 28 years together we are no longer comfortable around each other. I hate what has happened to us.

So....I called the attorney today and just took a break from the post-nup planning. I see a new IC on Thursday that I hope will help me put some things in perspective. The more I look back on some of the advice I was getting from the previous C the more upset I get. I told FWH today that she pretty much left it with me that she didn't think I would ever be able to "get over" the A and trust FWh again. She may be right....but I'm just not ready to give up the fight yet. (The path of least regret, right?) So I tell FWH this as he has a session on Thursday a.m. with the "old" C and I wanted him to be aware of where she and I left it. He gets all down and tells me that he "doesn't want to lose me." I had to bite my tongue to not give a smart-aleck answer...like, "why didn't you think of that BEFORE you decided to have a GF?" But you would be proud to know that I held my tongue. Instead I told that I feel like I did lose my husband. The man that I thought he was is no more and if our M is to survive I have to accept that there is another side to him that I didn't know existed. It's like there is this other part of him behind a curtain and he keeps telling me "Don't look behind the curtain. There's nothing there. What was there is gone now!." But it's not gone, it DID exist although FWH tries to compartmentalize that part of him. Does any of this make sense??


Posts: 490 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Texas
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 10:39 PM, November 30th (Tuesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

honest:

i think you need to line up your ducks first and foremost.....

and if you could get it done by end of the holidays, hooray....but if you need a bit more time, take it and DO WHAT YOU NEED TO DO...planning for a future...you know what you need to do, plan it well....and mostly set yourself up for all possible outcomes of your impending decision....

let your boys enjoy the holiday, it will hopefully for your sake be the last holiday you will have to hold it together...


living with what is:

if your sich's are such where change is not going to happen, where you know all you will ever know from your spouse...then a decision will have to be made based on what you do have and knowing that you may never know all that you need to know....can you live with knowing that there are more lies between you....i am not talking about details that can easily be forgotten, but the major things: sex acts, how many, whether or not there were words of love, how often (appx) so on and so forth....

this was something i decided early on and gave them to pfm as my dealbreakers....and then it became his choice to break them, which he did, he broke all of them....

i have to say, as painful as it all is, as much as it was and still is a bit of a rollercoaster.. ...the not living in limbo, waiting another day for him to do right...its been a saving grace for me....i know where i stand, it still hurts, but i know, i am not living with that torture of waiting for it, or knowing it and not having it confirmed...i hated limbo and am glad its over...

so i ask those of you still struggling with not knowing...can you live with not knowing for the rest of your relationship, can you find happiness knowing you will never know the answers you seek....can you bury enough of that fustration to create a new happiness....living with the spouse they have become today, living with the person they are today...

is your spouse is still trying, actively trying and making strides, no matter how minor, but making constant strides and they are not crossing your new boundaries, and more importantly are not actively breaking the dealbreakers, then ....which will be your path of least regret....

the only thing worse then staying in a bad sich for a year is staying in it for a year and a day.....so keep that in mind if your sich is bad and not getting better....of course if you are still in the beginning stages of discovery (the first 6 months) then wait it out just a bit more, unless of course your sich is abusive...then run don't walk to the nearest exit....


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 2:47 AM, December 1st (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

that she didn't think I would ever be able to "get over" the A and trust FWh again. She may be right....
I wish people would stop going on about “get over it”. You don’t get over it, you move on. Getting over it makes it sound like a cold or the flu rather than broken bones that might leave you with a limp or TB which you manage for the rest of your life. Like any trauma, it is there in your history and you end up dealing with it. And the other thing that gets me – an affair can make your marriage stronger! Bollocks. If your marriage was THAT bad that an affair was the catalyst to have a great one now, WTF did you stay married anyway? My little rant!

Does any of this make sense??
Yes!

so i ask those of you still struggling with not knowing...can you live with not knowing for the rest of your relationship,
We will never know. Not really. It has taken me a long, long time to accept that I will only have versions of the story that H has chosen to tell me sprinkled with some truths from MOW and a dusting from her BH. I was never there. I was never even close to there. There were no independent witnesses or inquest statements. And it’s that which has me turning from jealousy to sadness to a desire for the same to anger and every emotion in between.

Well, I’d better go and try to dig my way out of my house. The snow is stacked up and it’s still falling.


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3328 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 7:32 AM, December 1st (Wednesday), 2010View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Late last night FWW started talking about her lack of a sex drive and other issues. She explained that she just does not feel any sexual arousal. She wishes she did, and it is not me. I told her that I preferred hearing that to her telling me my desire for weekly sex was excessive. She agreed that was a defensive response on her part. She wants to go to a local medical quack who will for $300 "adjust" her hormones and in doing so increase her sex drive, make it easier to control her weight, and help her to sleep through the night. I told her I would put little stock in this approach, and that she should get some opinions from her regular ob/gyn. She says she wants to feel sexual, but it is just that her body does not. I suggested that participating in sex or routine masturbation would revive the "pathways", but she did not see how or why she would have sex more or masturbate if she did not feel sexual. I was fighting hard mentally not to go to the place where it was more important to keep OM happy than to please me. She told me how she hates being a disappointment to me. I acknowledged I wanted frequent sex, but that I was trying to focus on the 80% that is good and not the 20% that is bad. She said she wished she felt like jumping me sexually every time she got home, but she just did not have the arousal.

She talked about starting up testosterone shots again (she did these for a couple of years during her affairs). I told her it was late (midnight) and I was uncomfortable talking about issues so closely related to her A in my mind, and that I was already tense after preparing for IC today. She continued talking; apologizing for being so messed up coming into the M, and where that led. I told her I appreciated the apology, that I was still angry that she is holding back information she believes I would consider significant. I told her I worried that we could not heal and sustain a R if she was holding on to secrets. I also told her I was concerned if a year or three down the road when we might be during great some new information she had not told me might become known and ruin everything. FWW told me that she is no longer "there". She has moved beyond the A, and is trying to figure out what her life will be like moving forward. She said if I had questions about the A, I needed to ask the IC as she was not longer thinking about them. She was in a dark place during her A, she never thought she would be that kind of person, and she is disgusted if she thinks or remembers that time. She also went on and on about how it was years ago and she cannot give me a day-by-day description. I reiterated that I was not looking for a detailed description, but just enough to understand better. I gave her the example: A while back, when talking about meeting OM at a local hotel, in an effort to minimize she said it was all over and done in 2 hours. Recently, I had mentioned I would love 2 hours of sex like at the hotel. She corrected herself and said the sex was only 15 minutes and the rest was talking. This raises 2 issues in my mind. 1. While I know it cannot be true, she says that for the most part they just talked about work and life in general. I cannot believe that any man, or her, gets up from sex that by her account resulted in her having a screaming orgasm, and then talks about work. I just do not buy that. 2. I do not believe anyone could take her in the middle of an afternoon from 0 to screaming orgasm in 15 minutes. This is presuming she does nothing for him. So in my mind she is still not being truthful about these meetings, and if not these, what else is she withholding? Was there talk of love and plans for the future? What did they do that telling me about screaming orgasms on 2 out of 3 occasions at this hotel is what she feels safe telling me? Did she have a PA with BIL? Did she, as I suspect, meet for quickies after work with OM1 in addition to the 6 times she told me she went to his house when I was away?

She did mention that while she wants to R, if lack of sex is an issue for me and I still think about the A maybe we should D. She is thinking she needs a new profession if she is not going to be a sexual person (I did not follow this logic). She was very kind and tactile (holding my hand, stroking my arm) while saying these things. At this point, she went to sleep. Even with a half a xanax, an Ambien and a drink it took me a couple of hours on the4 couch to fall asleep. I am kind of jumpy and wired today, and bought a fresh pack of smokes on the way into work. I guess I just wait to see what I can figure out in IC this afternoon.

--Ats


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

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