Nell: a generic douche bag is too good for him! Perhaps rat poison because he's so toxic? Or for carbon monoxide because he can be so incidious? (sp?)
I can't thank everyone enough for your support. I really needed it. Miracle, I like your advice. It'll be more of a process of letting go that way.
I should write a list of the outrageous things he says. The other day when I had my mini meltdown he says something to the effect that this is not working any more, I'm not getting over it, I put him through so much this year, maybe it would be better if we separate and he would find someone else (???????). I answered that he was pushing me to leave and he says that why would HE put up with everything if he didn't love me and he didn't want to give me up?
God help me.
I have to write these things down to remind me of the real him when he becomes the snake like charmer.
Dip, you are right. It IS crap all wrapped up in a pretty package. No substance. All smoke and mirrors.
I want to address everyone. I want to thank you all. I have to stop this cycle of breaking down every time he comes.
First, (allgoodnamesgone)). To quote Bill, I feel your pain. While I was reading tonight, I came across some passages that I felt applied to your situation, and I was compelled to log on and check up on you and post. This is no small thing as my bed was very warm, and it is still cold here in FL.
You want your husband to do or not do certain things, and I understand that. I too have boundaries of what I can and think I cannot accept from FWW. OTOH, you are allowing his actions to affect your emotional status. You cannot control him, and he cannot control your emotions. Only you can control you.
You posted that you gave up veto power, but honestly, you never had it. You could coerce him into not going, but the underlying attitude that bothers you would still be there. He would punish you with resentment. Nothing would have changed. What can you do to be happy? What can you do tomorrow, a baby step, to increase your happiness and feeling of fulfillment? What do you, alone, need to do to be happy? Once you have that figured out, work towards the goal. Then, along the way, decide if you H adds or subtracts from your overall enjoyment of life. You must be happy from within, independent of him, and decide if his being in your life adds to it, or makes it harder. Harder is OK, if the benefit out-weighs the effort. Is he 80% of what you want? 50%, 25%? If he is less than 80%, do you think you could do better, or should you not focus on the 20% and instead focus on the 80%? I do not know these answers, I am not agng. In my sich, FWW is meeting >80% now. I focus on that part. If she lets boundaries slide, or disrespects me, or acts out, I will re-evaluate. I would be sad to have my 20+ years with FWW end in D, but long-term, I will be happy.
It is disappointing to us all that Mr. AGNG appears to have chosen is image with work peers over his relationship with you. I do see that he has shifted from not avoiding her and telling you he would make polite conversation, to saying he would avoid her. He is not stupid; he heard you and modified his behavior.
It may be too late, but I recommend stop responding to texts or calls. He made his choice, and your self worth is not based on what he does. He has already done the damage you warned him about. Is he flirting with OW or avoiding her? Texts and calls do not give you that answer, but it does not matter anyway. If he is still betraying your M, you will know.
He keeps saying to me I should act "normal" whatever that means
It means nothing. We are spending a lot of time and money for IC with FWW, and one of the issues still being worked on is her concept of normal. She does not know what is a normal amount of love-making. She wants a normal relationship. She loved me becasue I was normal.
All of these imply that any other feeling is not normal, and that is wrong. Feelings are what the are. There is no normal, other than a statistical artifact. What is "normal" for me may be 2+ standard deviations above or below the median, but that does not mean I do not feel that way. That does not mean I am not normal. I am just not average.
I hope you can find the happiness within.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 11:07 PM, December 16th (Thursday)]
I had a pretty big trigger event tonight. I said good night and ILY to FWW, and she replied "You're Cute"
This is what she has told me she said to OM when he would tell her that he loved her, and asked her to tell him again that she loved him. She told me she told him ILY one night after a work event with drinking when they were on their way to his office for sex.
I meditated for a while, but then I asked FWW about this. She says that she does still have a problem with saying she loves me (although she has spontaneously at times). She said she feels awkward saying ILY2 back to me, like it is an obligation. I told her she is not obligated. She said it was not dismissive, and that I am cute. I did not mention what she had said about OM, but I could tell she knew what I was thinking.
I am glad I asked, she says she is glad too. I am taking her word as the truth. I understand that allowing intimacy and true love is an issue for her. She is working on this. We have made progress in this area, me at being more accepting of her reality, and her being more trusting to be intimate with me.
I have practiced what I preach today. My Mother has to reconsider plans that did not work for my family, DS18 has to face a logical consequence, and after some meditation I am neither smoking nor drinking in response to a deep trigger. I also pushed hard on an important longterm change at work, and it looks like this is going to bear fruit for me and my department.
deeppurple, like Trynhard, I am not sure what to say to you. We all follow our own path, and I have not always done what is recomended on SI or especially in Betrayed Men. Best wishes to you on your journey. I will tell you that more often than not I found the conventional wisdon at SI was "more right" than I was in dealing with my WW. Please do not read more in to this that what I have written. You are doing what most of us have done, trying to determine your path of leaast regret. That is a terribly dificult thing to do pro-actively.
Dear Mr Allgood, Last night as you enjoyed yourself at the party, I cried. My thoughts of our past run through my mind with fear. I try hard to overcome my fears of losing someone I love but my mind just over and over pops with negativity. I don’t feel safe. It is not up to me to tell you what you can nor cannot do. It is now up to you to listen to me very carefully when I dig deep inside myself to get the courage to tell you when I will hurt and not hurt. The fear I have in our relationship might be exactly the same as when you would approach a domestic dispute at your work. You have no idea if the man is going to turn on you with a gun or stick while you’re trying to calm the argument. You have these chemical flowing to your brain with all sorts of thoughts, body changes. Me too. My distress is a 10 of 10. Do not misunderstand what I am telling you. The thoughts that pierce my mind have nothing to do with you having fun with your co-worker, but with my fear of you leaving me again. The meaning was very clear to me last night because of the closeness memories I try to dismiss. I was telling you I need to feel safe and I don’t feel confident. I think my message to you intentionally went ignored. What can you possibly do that will make me feel safe again? I listen to your words and try, but actions speak too. I can only tell you when I don’t feel good, or have fear.
I believe this. A person in this world will have the ability to make choices to love me. I want someone that wants to make me feel loved, demonstrate to me I am loved. I will not, nor cannot live a life feeling unsafe, unloved, and intentionally hurt time and time again. With each action you take, I am building my courage to move on with my life without any more grudges, regret, or fear over you. I know I often show anger but it is my defense for my own sanity. I don’t know how to say this any further. I am just a little girl in my heart wanting and needing safety from the man I pick to marry. If you don't want me, then please have the strenght not to hide, but tell me. Please don't make the choice to stay with me just for the kids. Make it for me.
[This message edited by trynhard at 5:54 AM, December 17th (Friday)]
maybe it would be better if we separate and he would find someone else (???????).
Seriously - you should write it all down, because this is just priceless. You could write a book, get rich off of it and we would all buy one and keep it on our coffee tables. (I know I would. Lol.)
But seriously, as I myself found last night - there's something about writing it down that is good. I think it helps keep us focused when we are surrounded by insanity.
Ok - so the update.
Of course, OW went to the party. He texted me that she was there, but she was dancing with her friends and not a word was spoken between them. I went to sleep about an hour later.
Since I must have been a very bad girl/boy, etc. in a prior life, I had the pleasure of having my smoke alarm remind me (loudly) that the batteries are low every F-n 5 minutes, all night long. I swear it's true. Still going off now. It's one of the newer models of the smoke alarms that are hard wired and I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to find the batteries or shut it off. So, this added to my fun.
Anyhoo, I woke up (no surprise) at 1am and called him. He said it was no problem avoiding OW all night and that next year I should go with him. (Because he sees now how we can avoid each other - meaning me and her and him and her, I suppose.)
Then, he tells me he's at ANOTHER party nearby, but she's not there. Tells me he's leaving soon, or another drink & leaving, I don't remember. Anyhoo, at 3:45am when I was awoken again by the damn smoke alarm I called & called & finally got him on the phone. Still there - apparently he fell asleep in his car. Words were exchanged and he drove home against my advice and arrived home at 4:30am.
That is the whole sordid story. When he came home, he re-iterated that OW was not at the 2nd party (even tho I know she was aware of the 2nd party and it involved coworkers in a differnt unit and it was otherwise a bar with which she is very familiar) and that he should've just left after the 1st party.
I am still calm as Hell and I think that is because between the support I receive here and the knowledge that I have a scheduled MC appt next week where it can all be fleshed outin a productive manner.
I want to respond more, but there are children expecting food, etc.
Ats - I can't believe you got out of bed. That's sweet! (I must admit -when I got off the phone with him at 4am I was going to log in, but I couldn't bear the thought of the cold floor - oil prices here are $3.50/gal - I just got hit with a $500 bill for oil that will probably last for 3 weeks - so I am being really cheap with the oil... Lol.)
You are correct in stating that I could coerce him into not going, but the underlying attitude that bother me would still be there. He would punish you with resentment. I will ask MC about what to do about this dynamic.
You asked what I can do to be happy? There are a lot of things I would like to do, but my responsiblites to my 4 kids make it difficult to make the time. I try to go to the gym 3-4x/wk. That makes me happy. And, I recently decided that I'm going to create my own opportunities to be happy - like inviting some women over that I've known for a long time, but in a very limited way. I am looking forward to getting to know them better and having fun. And, I do work - while not necessarily fun - it does have it's moments. It allows me to interact with a wide variety of people and provides me with a sense of self worth at least.
ANd - it's great that you and your wife are able to talk about these issues so productively. So odd, that you guys have come so far in just a few months.
Tryn: Thank you for giving my sitch so much thought. I will use some of the points you made when I speak about this in MC.
I actually felt very reassured last night because of his constant contact with me and he was doing it in a loving way, not like - "O man, I need to call you, so here's your call". I was fine until I realized he was still out at 4am. And, I'm "fine" now. But, his disrespect and sense of priorities is not lost on me. My eyes are open.
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 6:51 AM, December 17th (Friday)]
...my responsiblites to my 4 kids make it difficult to make the time.
Does/can Mr AGNG ever watch the kids while you have personal time? I am thinkiing I bet he wishes you would wake him this morning so that he could help with their breakfast.
FWW and I are doing well, and it seemed to be an abrupt change, not so gradual. It happened when I moved out. I broke the last, or nearly last, of my codependency on her. She got off the fence and committed to doing what was needed fix our M. Her doing what is needed without cajoling from me helps me to feel safe.
My stomach turns when I have to think about it. We haven't discussed it yet and I'm dreading it.
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 8:57 AM, December 17th (Friday)]
Does/can Mr AGNG ever watch the kids while you have personal time?
Actually he is solely responsible for the kids at least 1-2/x week when I am at work and he is home. The problem with the personal time is more like issues with his hours that prevent me from going to the gym sometimes and to be perfectly honest, has more to do with the fact that because I have been married with kids for so long, I don't really have any friends other than other mommies (who don't go anywhere) to go out with. But, I'm working on that.
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 9:07 AM, December 17th (Friday)]
I am really impressed with how you have been so calm. I wish I had more of that ability in me. Him watching the kids while you WORK is not quite the same as you watching them while he goes out to party. I bet he would argue with me about that.
Hugs to the tribe.
After giving it a lot of thought, I think Mr. Dishonest's picture would be perfect on the in-home enema kit.
and after relaying this to my mom she says honest that you should feed him some ex-lax
my gosh, my pc had a virus yesterday and i couldn't get back on to check in....and when i started reading a little bit ago i was getting angrier and angrier between allgood's idiot and honest's asshole......
allgood: wow, i am so proud of you for being able to handle it and to be able to sleep as must as that stupid alarm allowed you to...
honest: omfg...this jumped out at me:
maybe it would be better if we separate and he would find someone else (???????).
he really is looking for #3....when he tells you things like this i am surprised you don't inquire whether or not #2 would mind if yet another one would join the ranks.....and maybe you should let her know his plans... ....it is one thing that she came after you and then quite another if he wants to add yet another after already adding her...just too bad you couldn't see what her expression would be.....
so honest as i said from the getgo...he does not know how to love anyone cept himself....his ego self...
nell you crack me up, i love the things you come out with....
tryn: i loved that letter you wrote for allgood, it was so beautifully put...
really glad that you handled your trigger without turning to drink or smoke...so yay...
fun: go to the party and leave it early....its a compromise...let him know that you are ok going but you would like to leave early to do ______fill in the blank.....as a compromise because you really don't want to go at all but would like to start meeting him halfway as an action to "r"......and the blank should be something really fun and young...
njgal: i almost choked when you brought up diana ross and asked honest if it were before her time, i was raised on diana...guess i am dating myself....
She covered a lot of topics with IC. The significant thing is she has been saying and doing what she wants not what she thinks I want. As an example, I was told I am going to her work party tonight because she wants me there. In the past she would make excuses for me not to go because she thought I would not to. That left her available to OM.
So, I did.
I was SO pleased to see a friend there who used to work with me, I haven't seen him for 3 1/2 years! His work schedule is usually brutal but things are slow all over town right now.
I think I mentioned last summer WH got me a new wedding ring? I use it to do the "wedding ring test" I can usually figure out who knew by showing off the ring and evaluating whether the people I'm with are treating me differently. So, my educated guess says the 3 from the old firm knew. The old, very dear friend I used to work with did not.
We've also had a man out on our boat I never met before this summer (nice guy) two times and apparently he and WH have been friends for years. This guy: maybe he met OW? I don't know. He's been confused by me, and the first time "could have sworn" I went to college with WH. My guess would be that at least in one social circle they were playing husband and wife.
So, I've met the 3 former firm mates at a few parties before. I had a terrible time. They were pleasant enough, and I'd say the one guy is likeable, but the other two just really grated on my nerves. Plus, all they wanted to do was gossip about who in the office was cheating on their spouse with whomever else ... nice. I actually wound up excusing myself and checking LTA a few times just to self-soothe.
I drank too much, stayed out too late, reek of stale cigar...
But, hey, at least I live somewhere really expensive and got to spend over $400.
I just don't need this shit, but it does explain why even though WH was keeping 4 grand a month for his "spending money" he was always broke.
And I just thought to myself, last night and this morning -- really? He was "meeting with clients" and "working late" -- missing his children's lives, the home he pays out the wazoo for, for THIS? It's like every lame night at Main Street bar from back when I was in college, only 20 times more expensive, and at least in college you're unattached and going home with someone who is 19 and smoking hot.
But you know, I can't stand in a way being around people who I can tell knew. And I think it's two things: the people who knew are pretty much to a T his lamest friends (drinking buddies...) and also, I think when you're married people think of you as a unit, I like that couple or I don't, but don't really question the couple-ness; but when one is cheating, it's my friend, which person is he/she with, which one BS or OP do I like better -- I feel like I'm being judged on whether or not he should be with me. They're mis-matched it never would have worked anyway. His girlfriend is hotter, she's let herself go since having kids (and yes, in my artificial world here, I've let myself go because after being pregnant 7 times in 5 years, the baby is 9 months old and I'm **still** 20 pounds heavier than before I got pregnant with baby #3, seven babies ago.)
Ok. Vent over. Y'all get my point. The force is strong in these ones -- too bad they're all siths.
Anyway, my verdict is that M3 will be hanging out with the one guy I like at his yacht club with his wife and adorable boys whose ages mesh with my kids -- and MrM3 hopefully will stick to the occasional semi-proessional lunch with the other 2 fellow douchebags (one male, one female.) He VERY rarely goes out without me anymore, so socializing with the two whose entire thought process seems to be malicious gossip can be mostly avoided.
I know -- some of you will say WH should not go out without me at all. He goes out with his 2 BFF's to his basketball games (season tickets) and sometimes takes The Pharaoh if there is an extra ticket and he's going to that football game with his sister. That's about it since Dday.
So... we always say actions, not words here at SI and I guess I should give him more credit for his actions than I do. IC and I have talked about how there has been real change that has been consistent over the year, that NC seems to be firm, there are other problems, but I guess he should get some credit for those things. I think of Allgood's night while I was out --
Allgood, I'm going to be totally straight-up with you here. I know, so very well, because we've discussed how similar our lives are with 4 kids, same career, etc. And please, please believe me, I know the demands of the kids, the economy, it's easier for me to talk when I don't have to act...
But, straight up, if I were you, I would file divorce papers TODAY. That's just me. But if my WH went to a party OW was at, that would *probably* be enough for me anyway, but if he then stayed out all night "asleep in his car" It would be over. Allgood, I believe your WH was asleep in his car 0%. None. Nada. And you're smart enough to know that I'm right.
Because, this is the sticking point for me right now with my WH in my mind, no matter what he does, he went on a business trip to NY with his boss for the day this week. He sent pictures from the sightseeing he did after his meetings. No picture of the boss, but whatever. They do go up there every couple of months. Anyway, he said he was going and I thought "maybe he is, maybe he's not, maybe he is but it's not business or with his boss..." And then I realized, it doesn't matter one bit which of those things are true, because the only important part of all those thoughts is that by six years of his lies he unequivocally proved that it's possible that he was not going to be where he said he was or with who he said he was with. That's the only part that matters.
See, I just keep going back again and again to the fact that I gave him several "second" chances over the years before Dday. The main one being when I chose to believe him when OW ratted him out to me. I just think: That was it. That was the last moment this could have been fixed.
Allright, maybe vent wasn't over.
And this morning, I looked at Paddy and cried as she happily scooted accross the floor with her arms, dragging one leg behind her and pushing off a bit with the other, thinking about how her cousin born 2 days earlier is walking I'm an ass for feeling this way but I thought: I did this. I stopped eating. I starved her. I drank, not a lot, but some and anyway I guess I did this to her. So who is the real monster here anyway? I'm a grown woman who should be able to handle herself and I lost it and damaged my sweet baby for life. I'm sure someday she'll hate me for it. I hate me for it.
I'm a grown woman who should be able to handle herself and I lost it and damaged my sweet baby for life. I'm sure someday she'll hate me for it. I hate me for it.
I don't care that she's having troubles. I don't look at her differently (other than making sure people don't accidentally hurt her by assuming she can do more than she can just because of her age/size) She's just, her. And She's wonderful. And maybe she would be this way no matter what I'd done -- but maybe not.