Honey, you need to find a man that thinks with his dick. She got up and left.. lol
Damn people are bold! Good for you Tryn!
Yes, my H had sex with me while he also had sex with someone else. I do not consider that an act of love.
Allgood, I don't make this stuff up...
It's hard for me to agree with your arguement after read The five laguages of love by Dr. Gary Chapman, internationally respected marriage and family life expert.I read several of his books, I repect everything he has to say.
I have hours and hours reading, training and IC on love and I have my conclusions base on all those inputs.
- Men in Love by Nancy Friday, Sex on the Brain by Dr. Daniel Amen
- My first IC and I discuss the meaning of love several times
- I attended Retrou and that was discussed...
- and many more I will have to go find again.
The meaning of love is nothing new... It was discuss, debated and hashed over going back to pre bible times. Love really is not taught by anyone... maybe your FOO. So it is not fully learned properly.
For example, I am sure my W's family gave my W so much affirmation, she needs is greatly. The youngest child and only girl of 4. I am so aware of that today, I can see the same love poured all over my kids and my W even today. I see it them telling how great they are... affirmation after affirmation. That is my W's language of love. Affirmations make her feel loved. Funny how every one of there family are cheats. They all need affirmation so bad they all did not have the strenght to tell someone.. NO.
and me. I came from a more structured, disciplined family. My grandparents and parent tough.. tough people. Not a whole lotta hugging. Wonder why I am shy but greatly appriciate the love of touch...That feels good to me and is very important. I can say no to people. It's just me.
You put my wife, after 7 years in the house being a homemaker feeling unvalued, unaffirmed, and place her into the office of a man, A guitar player, a powerful lawyer, wanting and needing the love of touch, tall and confident. He was so appreciative of someone so smart, so sexy, so sweet, so innocent… with a history of cheating once before… a woman that cheated in youth to by a man telling her how great she was... how sexy... recipe for affair.
See, I understand why my W did what she did. Maybe you are not there yet... NJgal understands, ATS understand... So we can move on for what it is.... Have you found who you are allgood?
Maybe this will help you, I don't think you can possibly have a LTA without love being part of the equation. I wish it was not true. Fact is people can love more then one person. I loved you a few post ago but maybe you disagree?
I love my kids in a different way then I love my Wife. I loved you in a different way.
Of course you were treated like shit during his affair. I too was also treated very poorly. I can tell you things of love she did for me but I can also list a whole bunch of unloving things. That is all part of infidelity.
[This message edited by trynhard at 2:21 PM, December 30th (Thursday)]
You know, 2008 sucked (I just didn't realize how much it sucked at the time), 2009 sucked and 2010 sucked a little less...
Alrighty then - I am ready for 2011!!!!
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 2:52 PM, December 30th (Thursday)]
See, I understand why my W did what she did. Maybe you are not there yet... NJgal understands, ATS understand... So we can move on for what it is.... Have you found who you are allgood?
It is true that I believe I have a good idea of how my FWW ended up in her A's, but more important to our R, is the fact that FWW herself is figuring this out and taking ownership. I have not seen any posts from allgoodamesgone indicating that her H has made any progress in understanding the why. If my WS did not understand the why, or did not seem interested in finding it, I would have trouble feeling safe to R.
I commented about love and the OP in allgood's tread in Recon. At least in my sich, I do not believe that FWW loved her OM. The MOM in her A in her first M, she thought he was the one true love of her life. She now sees that is not true. The OM in our M, she was looking for affirmation, control, power. Yes, there were instances of infatuation and saying love, but there really was no romance in either of the relationships. Maybe this is all part of what she is not telling me, but from what I know, no love. She and the OM both met needs the other had. They told her how wonderful she was, and she gave them great sex.
I agree with the concept that love is not a bucket, but a well. I can love my W, my parents, my kids, a couple dear friends, but I do not believe that you can betray someone you love. I believe that self-sacrifice is a part of the love equation.
ETA: I believe the only love in FWW's A's was that she and her AP's loved how they perceived themselves in each others' eyes. FWW felt attractive, competent, and powerful. I know her OM and they are not confident men. With her they had an attractive woman who would tell them how wonderful they were, and provide sex with no strings attached (other than reflecting the mutual admiration). These men could then set aside whatever their personal short-comings were and bask in the fact that thye were better than Atsenaotie, because his W is in love with them. Both the OM who had sex with my W told her I did not appreciate what a wonderful wife I had.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 4:20 PM, December 30th (Thursday)]
I know that when I kept telling my husband that I did not believe that he no feelings for the OW he was in IC and he spent quite a long time exploring this very question with his IC. What is love? vs what is infatuation etc. He was in IC for 1 and 1/2 yrs.- weekly sessions and for the first 6 months 2x per week sessions....
so, he did a lot of work trying to analyze himself his actions etc.
And..you know what? figuring out that he truly did not love the OW...figuring out that he treated her like ONS for 5 yrs does not exactly make him a prince.
He had to face what a toxic, selfish man he was...
That on top of completely disrespecting me and disgracing our marriage vows (his own words) he also used this other woman like a piece of meat....
taking what he wanted ...rejecting her when he didn't want anything from her....
so, he realized that all in all he was not a very nice person, not an ethical, moral, or kind person.
That is what he has been trying to change about himself.
so, maybe,that's why I am willing to reconcile and finally relax a bit about my decision to R.
I think it has to do with the amount of energy and effort a FWS is willing to put into rebuilding the marriage and fixing what was broken inside of themselves.
i also do believe you can love 2 people at the same time, just differently...but neither love would be a "true" love...for when there is "true" love there is no room, no need and no want of another....
sex does not equal love either...having sex is a physical act that does not need love to take place...
as for lta's and love...i do not believe that all ws's are "in love" with their op's....pfm was the perfect example..since he carried on with 2 lta's at the same time...one for 12 years the other for 30....the one for 12 years he loved but was never in love...the other he was completely in love with....
habits ...lots of a's continued simply because they became habit....
ok those are my thoughts for now....more may follow at another time...
i would like to take this opportunity to wish everyone a very happy new year...there is a good possiblity that i will not be back to si until after the new year....very busy miracle family...right now there are 4 other teens having a sleepover with my 3, and about 10 minutes ago the last of the teens not sleeping over were picked up...at 1 am...there were 5 more...lots of teens, lots of hormones...and lots of teen boys doing stupid really well because girls were present.. ...now the only girl left is my dd....and yes she is hangin with them...she is "one of the boys" in a way....
tomorrow we are all off to visit with friend til sat nite, and on sun we have a 50th bd party and we will be leaving that a little early to go see jeff dunham.....jeff dunham was my bdy present from pfm....so we will be busy busy busy.....
may you all greet the new year with new hopes and dreams for new beginnings for all....all endings are really beginnings in disguise.....
happy new year tribe...and maybe i will be back to see this home have an ending or maybe i will be back to see our new home in part 22....kind of aproppo!!!
[This message edited by iwantamiracle at 12:24 AM, December 31st (Friday)]
I don't really agree with you Tryn about love. I do agree that "making love" to a woman you care about is a loving gesture, but there are so many people who "make love", and that is just it "make" love....not true love, more just engaging in sex. There does not have to be deep feelings involved with that.
I would like to share a conversation I had with my wise grandfather who was 87 at the time, and me around 30. My first xWH had left and I started dating current WH.
Grandpa: Be careful when a guy says that you are driving him crazy.
G: It's not true love, it's lust.
Me: Why do they lie like that????!!!! (I was very upset)
G: (smiling knowingly) Ahhh, that's just it, they are not purposely lying. A young man doesn't know the difference between lust and love. True love takes a long time to develop....years to get to know someone.
I wish we had that conversation before I first got married!!
I do agree that there are different kinds of love and different degrees of love. Real, mature love takes time to grow and nourish.
NJgal: You are right, I am trying to get what I need right now. For years and years I tried to save money, say no to WH's impulsive buying sprees to be practical. I see where all the money I "saved" has gone and is going to OW and OC's. I was NEVER a materialistic person. I would much rather take a walk on the beach and talk than spend big money on something. The quality time is much better.
I am trying my best to be really objective and see WH for what he really is, as objectively as possible so I can detach. The problem is, I really kind of did that already and accepted WH for himself and all his flaws anyway. But now, I'm looking even deeper. I'm taking off my rose colored glasses.
It's so sad, though. The hurts, lies and deception are still there. That will take a long time to recover from.
Allgood, I can't say why some WS's seem to be able to just "leave" the OP. Some of them really do want to do it and have been for a long time, but didn't know how. It became a way of life. Someone I know was a WBF. It got to a point with him that he wished something would happen to make it all stop and force him to choose, although he really did love the fiancee' more. He was relieved when it all came out in the open. It made him realize who he really wanted all along. But he felt guilty about both girls (neither knew).
This is a hard thing to accept, especially for us at LTA. I do believe that the WS's cared for the OPs to a certain degree, and loved them also, definitely "in love" or infatuated.
There is another thing that I'm realizing for myself. I do love WH, but it's almost like an addiction too. He is not good for me. He really is toxic for me, but why I can't let go is irrational.
If a WS is in a sitch like that, and has a loving spouse ready and waiting to R, it would be a relief and a saving factor to be able to get rid of the toxicity. To be able to finally realize who they really and truly love, with true love. I don't know if this is making any sense?
I hope everyone will have a happy and blessed New Year. I pray that 2011 will be a new starting point for many of us. 2010 seemed like such a long year.
Have been reading often but for a number of reasons have not written.
The big Q - Did they love the AP??? I don't know! I really don't and I don't think he does or maybe he doesn't want to say he did for fear of "upsetting" me.
We have talked about this because I wanted to know.
He says relationship with OW1 was only for a few months (PA) but continued EA for 16yrs (long phone calls once or twice a week). He says he never loved her(???)- she became "just a friend".
OW2 is a very odd and lonely woman. Depressed. He visited her sometimes once a week, sometimes once a month. Never stayed (said the house smelled like cats!). This continued for 8 years!!!! OW2 told me that he told her he loved her but that she didn't believe him. He says he doesn't remember telling her he loved her and that it was just about the sex.
OW3 was the big one (lasted for a year before dday). I heard him (VAR) tell her he loved her repeatedly, call her beautiful, sweetheart etc, speak to her in a loving way with great concern about her. Talk about wanting to be with her, discussing sex they had, saying things with sexual innuendo. She wanted him to leave me and go live with her. She was D after 35 yrs of marriage.
He says he thought he loved OW3 but never intended to leave me. He now says he doesn't think he loved her but that he "really liked her". Sometimes I hear wistfullness in his voice when he says this which really hurts. I haven't told him I hear this.
He threw all 3 OWs under the bus after dday. I know he had a few brief conversations with OW3 in the first 2-3 weeks after dday. He has had no contact since. (7mths). I believe him when he tells me he avoids her at work. So how could he have “loved" her? How could you “love" someone and abandon them so easily?
So what do I think? I think he thought he was in love with them. I think he convinced himself it was "love" to justify having sex with them and betraying me. I think OW1 was a total skank who enjoyed her little game. OW2 was and is a sad, sick person who enjoyed the sex and attention he gave her. OW3 wanted my life and stroked his ego relentlessly in an attempt to get it!.
I don't think my H really loved any of them. HE now says he thinks it was just about the sex. I think it was the sex and the affirmation they gave him.
As for the sex well I don't think my H "made love" to me for many years. I believe it was all about HIS sexual gratification. I think I knew this at the time but didn't know how to handle it so said nothing - there were lots of other probs in our relationship - which I did talk about but got nowhere.
Our sex life now is much better. Sometimes I feel like he is "making love" to me. Sometimes I don't. Sorry I can't explain but there is a difference. I can tell when he is feeling love and when he is just having a good time and trying to give me a good time too.
Wishing you all a WONDERFUL NEW YEAR. Please relax and enjoy. It is 7.40 on Fri 31st Dec in Aussieland so not long for me - a little longer for you yanks and poms!!! (Hope you see these as terms of endearment - they are!!!!)
HUGS to all
[This message edited by Laura28 at 3:04 AM, December 31st (Friday)]
Almost forgot. Here they are at last (or some of them at least). The result of the "fucking ducks excited in the grass!"
[This message edited by Laura28 at 3:07 AM, December 31st (Friday)]
Well Nofun and Allgood...
how could FWH be with OW for 12 years, 12 FUCKIN YEARS, and then end it. Now he wants me?
For me today, it only matters how I am treated today. I pardoned my wife. I just accept it and no matter how much they loved them, thought they loved them, it just does not change that past.
I'm happy I am being treat so well. It feels good.
I hope the coming year brings everyone happiness.
[This message edited by trynhard at 9:08 AM, December 31st (Friday)]
He just wanted to have some fun. Admittedly, I was not fun. I was a stressed out, pissed off working mother of 4 who was very, very lonely.
Anyway, my feeling is that I am and always will be special to him. I am his family. We have spent more than half of our lives together - from teens, to adults, to parents, etc.
I am still doing risk assessment. I am still trying to figure out exactly who my H is and what he is capable of. Can anything he says be believed? Does he have my best interest at heart? He is a lot of things to me, but am I willing to designate him as my #1 trusted person in my life. Marriage is similar to a business partnership. If I had found my business partner stealing from me, or sharing business/trade secrets with a competitor would I really want to continue to do business with this person?
The answer is so clear when you take the emotion out of it.
I think it is best summed up by stating that he doesn't want to lose me. It's fear more than true love. I am clearly not his priority. No amount of mc, retro, etc. is going to change that fact, in my opinion.
I get it - that change is possible. You can learn to be a better listener, better communicator, more giving, etc. Those are changes that can be made and make everyone's life happier, but
it's no substitute for true love, real passion. In my case - I don't think we feel that way about each other. I think we are both deeply attached to each other and afraid not to be together more than anything else.
Ok, enough of this crap. Today, I am preparing for the new year. At the moment, my resolution is to have 2 pairs of socks in every child's drawer everyday. (I'm going to save the no cursing for the Lenten season. 40 days of no swearing is a little more reasonable than 365. Lol.)
Laura: Thanks for the photo of the fucking ducks! Lol.
To all: in the words of a wise friend, here's to 2011 -may it neither suck, nor blow.
In the times leading up to, and during, our spouses' LTAs we all accepted less than what we should have in our M; alcoholism, emotional isolation, secrets, muddied communication, loss of companionship, loss of affection. We are responsible for tolerating these losses and staying in the M prior to dday. For those who did not D, d-day has come and gone, and we are still in the M, why? What is different now than before dday? If there is difference, is it enough?
One year from now, each of us will be responsible for what we write on NYE. What will your post read? I hope to write how this was the year our healing completed and we obtained a M better than we ever hoped for. I would like to look back over a year of pleasant memories, and fading recollection of the anger, hurt, yelling, and despair of last year. OTOH, if my FWW backslides or gives up, I will write that this was the year when I knew I had given my all, and I finally ended the M.
Either outcome, I will be OK, and I will accept responsibility for my participation.
Best wishes to the Tribe.
40 days of no cursing! I don't know how in the hell I would ever be able to do that shit. 40 minutes would be hard enough.
Your example of the business partnership is a good one except our emotions do get in the way. Sometimes emotions suck.
Did my W love the OM? I never will know. She can't remember or doesen't know anything it seems. She did say one time she was looking for someone to be nice to her. If she did not love them I would say that she did love all the bullshit they fed her.
Tribe. With all this love talk I gotta say I love this place and I love everyone here.
Happy New Year and Hugs to the tribe.
Interesting discussion about love & very thought provoking.
I do not believe that time alone makes a LTA one where the WS always "loves" the OP. They may "love" the convenience, the activities shared, the secrecy making it more exciting but that doesn't mean they love the person they are doing that with, no matter for how long or short. They may care, but that's not love either. You can care without love, but can't love without caring for the person.
You can care about people at work, for example. And you may be willing to buy lunch or dinner, chip in for a gift but you may not donate blood for them, get up in the middle of the nite to go help 'em & you'd never hand over your ATM card with pin number or credit card. No matter how many years you work side by side with them or screw around just with them...
Many people confuse love with nothing more than lust then wonder why its such a disappointing experience. Especially when involved in betrayal activities, when the thrill of a new body wears off they simply wander off to repeat the whole thing again with someone new. The difference with LTA's is that some instead of going from one affair to another, decide they will stick with what they feel safe messing around with in some way. But that's not love either.
I think that in most if not all "affairs", its not so much a matter of love but how well the dysfunction of both line up at the right time & place. That said, a marriage license alone doesn't guarantee love is or can be present with the couple. True love is a choice put into action, not a mere feeling which is can vary from moment to moment for no good reason.
BTW, anyone interested in the Five Love or Apology Languages, can take a test on Chapman's site:
[This message edited by unicornsearcher at 10:16 AM, December 31st (Friday)]
oops, double post....
[This message edited by unicornsearcher at 10:56 PM, January 1st (Saturday)]
I think that in most if not all "affairs", its not so much a matter of love but how well the dysfunction of both line up at the right time & place.
But did he love her? Maybe. She took the place of his Victim/Perpetrator twin brother, whom he loves, when his twin moved away.
But did he love HER? Maybe. He has a habit of insisting that he not repeating statements out loud because he doesn't want to convince himself that what he's saying is true. He repeated "i luv u" so often that perhaps he did convince himself that it was true (along with all the "Nell doesn't luv me" justifications).
But did he love her? Maybe.
Did he love ME? He says so. He says he never doubted our love for one another. I doubt his love for me, but I can't presume to know someone else's feelings. He did not treat me as if he loved me, and perhaps the way he treated me/treats me now is the only thing that's important, whatever I think about his feelings.
So, when we try to analyze the LTAs we are looking at them from our perspective.
And, there is nothing in our experience that we can compare it to-so we make the mistake of trying to compare it to dating relationships that we may have had in the past.
Well, the LTAs are nothing like a normal dating relationship.
When we try to imagine if there was true love there or any kind of true affection, kinship etc. we simply do not have anything we can compare it to...we have no personal experience to compare it to....
so...I think that many of the BS totally over romanticize what the affair was like...because we imagine how we would have to feel in order to engage in something like this.
And its nothing like that.
That's what my husband kept saying to me... "You don't understand", he would say, "it wasn't like that".
And yet, when I tried to get him to explain what it was like he often couldn't. Or he would explain by saying something like yes....when he drove away from the OW after getting a BJ in the parking lot he stopped thinking about her immediately, did not think of her again when he got home...did not sit around 'mooning' over her or yearning to see her again...
instead he would put it out of his mind until the next hook up...which often did not happen for another month or sometimes 2 months.
One way that I like to look at it is this... most of us have children that are out in the dating world etc.
So...imagine your son or daughter coming home and telling you that they are in love... and then when you ask them to tell you about the relationship they begin to describe exactly what went on during your spouses affair.
In a million years....not one of us would agree with the kid that yes...what you are describing definitely sounds like true love.
Instead, we would tell our child that they would need to have their head examined....because the relationship that they describe is the opposite of what you would describe as a true love.
That it is empty, demeaning, exploitive, sick, etc.
Take my husband's OW.... if she were my daughter (God forbid) or niece and she came to me and said.... gee.. I have this new boyfriend and he really loves me... and then told me that he was married, did not plan on ever leaving his wife, had told her that he loves only his wife and family.
But, shows his love for her by sending sexually graphic emails to her...discussing what he or she will do to each other the next time they get together...calling her a slut and saying thats what he likes about her.
Meanwhile... they work together and his wife is very busy and not home much at all so he could see this woman every day if he wanted to but...does not...and instead waits until their is a work trip 4 x per year when they will get drunk and then he will show more of his love for her by tying her up in the hotel room and spanking her.
They do not go to any movies, shows, dinners together (other than work related functions when others are present).He does not introduce her to any family or friends. He never meets anyone from her life either. He does not tell anyone about the relationship and she is not allowed to ever tell anyone about this relationship.
Oh... but he really does love her because every few months after her urging him on he will agree to go out for drinks after work with the work crowd and then he allows her to give him a BJ in the car in the bar parking lot while he looks out the window to make sure no one comes out and then without any kissing or hugging because they do not want to be found out... she lifts her head (probably bumping it on the steering wheel), he zips up his pants, she wipes her mouth, and he tells her to get out of the car because he needs to get home and she drives away to her family...
now... doesn't this describe a real love relationship?
try that with your situations...
when you start imagining that there was 'real' love in the LTA.
Insert one of your children's name in place of the OW or the OM and tell the story from their perspective.
You will see that you would never wish that type of 'luv' for anyone that you care about!
My FWH also told the OW that he "loved" her many times but he also tells me that he never stopped loving me. (Sound familiar?) I also believe that you can love more than one person at a time, we love our children, friends, etc. But...and this is a huge BUT...while our WS's may make this distinction in their relationship with the AP, we do not. We, as BS's consider that when our WS told the AP that they "loved" them that that meant that they were "in love" with them or felt for them what they feel for us. Now that may or may not be true but I think that it would be impossible to simply turn away from the AP in a split second if they were truely in love with that person. The problem is that WE, as BS's cannot and should not have to make or accept that distinction. Unless you have agreed to be in an open M, then there is no room for another person, even one that you "love" as a friend, in your sexual or emotional relationship. It's not just the sex and it's not just that my FWH spoke of loving his AP, it's that he is able to equate loving me, and being "faithful" to me with also having sex, companionship, intimacy with another person without my even being aware of it. He made the decision to change the rules of our M without my knowledge much less my consent.
So did he lie to her when he said that he "loved" her...from my point of view, yes but from his, maybe not. The problem is that this is a huge difference in points of view and not one that I/we can reconcile. He either has to accept my point of view that monogamy is sacred or I have to accept his that you can show love sexually and intimately with two people at the same time and keep both as satisfying relationships - or - one of us has to change our point of view. I can understand my FWH's point of view, but I cannot and will not accept it in my M. It's not what we said to each other in our vows and that has never changed for me. 09
If anything, knowing that my FWH told the OW that he loved her just means that he was telling another lie. He lied to me and he lied to her. Where do the lies end? And the biggest question of all is can I live with never knowing when the lies may begin again?
Thanks to the Tribe for being such a huge source of comfort and support these past few months. I don't know where I'll end up at the end of 2011 but I know that I could not have made it this far without your counsel.
[This message edited by strongish at 11:53 AM, December 31st (Friday)]