when he drove away from the OW after getting a BJ in the parking lot he stopped thinking about her immediately, did not think of her again when he got home...did not sit around 'mooning' over her or yearning to see her again...
I can't say that this is true in my sitch.
They worked together. He saw her everyday. He spoke with her on the phone everyday and every night, multiple times throughout the day.
This was not just sex.
If it was just sex - there would be no reason to call constantly. THere would be no reason to call during extremely emotional times.
No reason to call her at 1:30am to tell her his wife is having a baby. Wouldn't be something she'd expect - like you can't say she would cut him off from the sex if he didn't call during such a moment. He wouldn't call from home or from vacations with the family - excuses could've been made up - I couldn't get to a phone - my wife was there, etc. if he didn't really want to talk to her all the time.
My H did worry about her. If they were going somewhere near our house, that she was unfamiliar with, he would meet her off of the parkway and then they would drive together. When she got drunk at a bar, he worried that car would get towed and called her over and over again for hours until he finally reached her at 1am.
I wish I could say it was just friends with benefits. But it wasn't.
I understand that it wasn't real love in the sense that they didn't have a real life like relationship, but it's too close to comfort for me.
Strongish - I just read your post & it reminded me that my H had said he knows he loves me and not her because he can't live without me and he can live without her.
Ats - you are right. I have to take some responsiblity for my happiness. And, I will.
I think this has got to be it for me today, because I see that I'm getting very agitated by the topic.
ETA: Ok - just to rein this in a bit - I guess it doesn't matter if the WS loved the OP during the A, it only matters that those feelings are no longer there now and that the WS loves the BS, with a newfound appreciation now. I guess the rest of the stuff just goes more to the "what kind of person can do this" question and do I want to be with someone with this kind of proven capacity to deceive, manipulate, etc. So, for those of you who have seen your spouses take a real hard look at themselves and make some significant changes, I can see where you can move forward and, by the same token, I can see where that is not evident in the WS the BS is left confused, hesitant and conflicted.
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 12:10 PM, December 31st (Friday)]
My New Years's wish for you and all of us here on LTA is that the New Year brings us good health, happiness, and peace.
I do believe that it is never too late to live happily ever after...
That is my wish for all of us here.
The lies they make to justify thier behavior.
They were unhappy for whatever reason, so were the BS's, it was just the choice they made to try to allay the unhappiness.
The BS had boundaries, morals, a sense of right and wrong.
A deep sense of morality, like if a cashier gives you too much change, some keep it rationalizing that the store "rips" people off anyway, while others automatically give it back because it's the right thing to do.
For me, it doesn't matter if anyone will know if I did the right thing or not. I WILL KNOW.
I am coming to the conclusion from reading everyone's posts that both the BS and WS have to change because the same mistakes will happen again.
I don't know if if the WS loved the OP. It's a hard thing to wrap our heads around.
For me, I can't rationalize anything, since WH bought OW an apartment, jewelry, brought her places, spends a lot of money on a good private school for OC's, etc etc. As he tells me "She's my full wife" and yet he claims he doesn't love her? Others say to me that he can hardly stand her?
It's true, that we look at a situation from our point of view. It's hard for many of us to imagine doing the things that our WS's have done without them feeling some strong feelings for the OP's.
We are not pychologists, but we do want to understand so badly. It has a lot to do with our own sense of worth. We gave ourselves to our WS's.
I don't know where I'm going with this. I do think one can forgive a WS by understanding a lot of things. I forgave my xWH because I was finally able to look at the whole sitch as objectively as possible and at xWH's actions as a whole. For my xWH, he was basically a good man who made a terrible, stupid mistake and stopped his bad actions, even though he left me.
I guess that is what those of you who are trying to R need to look at.....everything. And if the WS is making an effort to change themselves and discard the ground that was fertile for an A. Some of them are so rooted in their ways, they are afraid to do anything or don't know how.
I think if they seem truly remorseful, that is a first start, and from reading here, most of the WS's are like that.
I wish each and every one of you a wonderful and blessed New Year.
By the way, Ats, I LOVED your post.
So many of you at LTA are such wonderful writers. You all have a gift.
I love each and every one of you as family and friends. Thank God for all of you.
What do you want your post here on December 31, 2011 to read? What can you do to start towards that future?
ETA: I guess the answer would be to be fully authentic and see where that gets me. That would mean, of course, that I will have to start (cough cough) trusting WH to respond in a healthy way. Which experience has taught me is laughable, but hope springs eternal. And then...?
Happy New Year, everyone. Love and peace in 2011.
[This message edited by ImNellNow at 5:01 PM, December 31st (Friday)]
But I'm also thinking about previous NYEs, especially the ones he spent with OW. I don't seem to be able to get past this... it's on my mind most of the time. I don't know how anyone here manages this.
oops... gotta go.
I do believe that it is never too late to live happily ever after... That is my wish for all of us here.
I totally agree!
Allgoodnamesgone… It is OK if he loved OW. I’m glad your H told you his choice.. he picked you. The anger you have given him these past several months I am certain he now really understand right from wrong. He did change for you, he stopped loving OW. I stand behind what I have read, learned and been taught. Love is a choice.
Njgal.. what a very good post to argue what love is..
Oh... but he really does love her because every few months after her urging him on he will agree to go out for drinks after work with the work crowd and then he allows her to give him a BJ in the car in the bar parking lot while he looks out the window to make sure no one comes out and then without any kissing or hugging because they do not want to be found out... she lifts her head (probably bumping it on the steering wheel), he zips up his pants, she wipes her mouth, and he tells her to get out of the car because he needs to get home and she drives away to her family...
On the other hand, if someone holds you down, forces sex on you that is not love. In that case, it is not a choice. It is just an act of sex. Your brain has different places of stimulas causing climax...
One thing I do know, if you can pardon, which starts with a choice by you. I don’t know how or why, but you can achieve a point of acceptance where is just did not matter what they did. It then becomes what matters today. Maybe you must have a clear change though.. You must work on how you love in your marriage.. how you treat each other.. in all those things that come with that which includes those boundaries.. acts of love.. (I could write a book)..
Happy day my friends…
[This message edited by trynhard at 10:09 AM, January 1st (Saturday)]
Happy New Year!
Last night, I drank just the right amount.
After we came home and after showing each other some love (Tryn) , I still felt absolutely no loving emotion for my H. This has been a distinct departure from pre-DDay "loving". Since I was still feeling the effects of having had enuf to drink, I asked my H what he was thinking. He said nothing, he was thinking of sleeping. Lol. Fair enough.
I was sooooo close to telling him I'm done. Not out of anger, just because I have been thinking it a lot the last few days. I guess between my H working a ton of ot this week, so he's not here, which allows my thoughts to wander without any new positive contributions from him to offset it, plus, I was looking over my 2010 mini-calendar (with all my notes about our relationship, his actions, etc.) and I have to say, the first half of the year was really filled with a lot of really crappy stuff from him - I was really getting annoyed, like here he professes to x,y and z, but look at what he was doing...
And, you all know from my posts yesterday that I was getting all riled up.
Anyhoo--- I didn't say anything to him last night, and I find myself today looking at him a little differently, with a little more hope, for no reason at all.
Anyway, I hope everyone got to have a little bit of fun.
Andrew Peterson - Dancing In The Mine Fields..
For all of us - I wish 2011 to be a year of peace and resolution.
Here's another song that describes alot of our situations. It's by a country singer- Alan Jackson (and, I'm not typically a country fan).
It is a lovely song called- 'Remember When'.
Apparently Jackson was a WS and then wrote this song for his wife after they reconciled.
I was being a bit facetious...
imagining a girl describing this 'loving' relationship to her parents.
IMHO if anyone I knew came to me and described this scenario as an example of what a loving relationship she has...well.. I would tell her she needs to have her head examined!
Sex is not love.
If that is all your relationship entails then you do not have a 'real' relationship .
The affair partners-even those that see each other every day at work- compartmentalize their relationship.
They do not have full fledged intimate relationship with the AP.
It is superficial and based on very little reality.
They truly do not know the other AP at all. And, they really do not want to know the 'real' affair partner.
They crave the flattery, the fantasy,the escape.
For example, my H had a 5 yr LTA with a co-worker.
I bet if I were to wake him up in the middle of the night and ask him to tell me the names and ages of the OWs 3 children that he would not be able to do that!
He never met them.
They rarely discussed the kids.
That is not reality.
In a real life 'normal' dating relationship your love interest's children are an integral part of your relationship because they are so important to the person that you care about.
But, when you don't really care about the affair partner...you do not really care about his or her children or any of his/her life outside of the affair!
It's all about being totally selfish which is the opposite of what a loving relationship should be.
[This message edited by njgal480 at 6:02 PM, January 1st (Saturday)]
He has not stopped contact with mow. She called him to see how his christmas went and talked about what she had been given and what he had been given and what he gave me wtf!! I did not say anything, I filed it away with all of the other information I have and in two weeks I will make my final decision. Wh has told me he loves her as a friend and has for a long time, but he is fully in love with me. He just cannot see what staying in contact with her has done to our marriage.
I think he somehow believes that if he just tells me what type of contact they have it will make it okay. It is not okay and I am not going to be the one to tell him no contact, I did that and he failed multiple times. Yesterday I told him that when I found out about facebook contact in August 2010 I took off my engagement ring and closed off more than half my heart. I also told him that when I busted him for sexual chat with a different woman, he crushed the rest of my heart. He said that I hold the power as to whether I will fight for our marriage, that he will not give up. I don't know that I have any fight left, or what there is left to fight for...no trust, no belief.
Someone posted a great song that captured my feelings and thoughts. It is Jar of Hearts by Christina Perri. I think this is a powerful song. You can hear it on youtube.
My thoughts are with all of you today. Hang in there and I hope we all have a 2011 filled with peace in our hearts.
IMHO the only chance a marriage has of surviving a LTA is if the WS is extremely remorseful and is willing to do anything and everything to save the marriage.
Your WH is not showing any remorse or regret if he is not willing to give up talking to the OW (if that is really all he is doing).
Like I've said before... I've read stories on SI where WS have moved thousands of miles away to get away from the OW, others have turned down promotions, quit jobs,gone NC with all of their toxic friends that contributed to the LTA as well as NC with the OW....
others have agreed to get rid of furniture or cars that the BS felt were 'soiled' by the affair.
Most FWS agree to complete transparency post d-day...in terms of passwords, emails, cell phone records, finances.
Others agree to stop using Facebook, classmates.com etc.
And..your husband wants to reconcile with you but does not want to stop 'talking' with the OW?
The only woman that he should be 'talking to' is you.
Still hurting deeply but trying to implemenet the 180 without much success! All of this is just so so hard.
Take care everyone, and here's to finding love and happiness in 2011.
Welcome to LTA. The people here are wonderful. We are at various stages in our healing.
You will find it will take a while to get to know us and our stories. There are a dozen or so of us who post a lot, a few who pop in from time to time and a few lurkers who post occassionally. There are also some "old timers" with much wise advice.
Don't worry about getting the stories straight to start. Just join in as you feel like it.
The main thing to know is that we are a very caring group. We all KNOW how terrible it feels and although all our stories are a little different there are also so many similarities.
The thing I love about LTA is the consistency. Many of the people here are people I have been sharing my trials with since dday. I have made true friends who I know will always be there to support me in both the highs and the lows. They will also give me a lot of laughs at times and I will shed tears for them at times too.
This "tribe" is wonderful - I truly could not have surived without them.
Welcome again. You've come to the right place.
[This message edited by Laura28 at 3:11 AM, January 2nd (Sunday)]
I went back and read the 180 behaviours again and realised that in fact I have been implementing most of it from day 1 without realising it. I have been strong with my H consistently. At no point have I given him the impression that I can't live without him. My only weakness is that I have been really sick with various issues that are being further investigated. I hate that. I don't want to get ill and have him hovering around in any attempt to "rescue" me and be "the man" that I can't do without. I have allowed him to do that too much during our marriage. It is scary though as after 25 years you do lean on each other for emotional support. After all those years you are no longer just a "lover" as you are at the beginning of a marriage. You become all things i.e. Mother, Father, Lover, Husband, Wife, Sister, Brother, Joint Parent. The ridiculous thing is that if either of us were going through some kind of crisis that was causing as much grief and anxiety as all this has caused, then the other one would have been there for the other - no question. Yet because of the nature of this, I can't lean on him nor him me. He has annihilated our natural mutual support system overnight. One thing I find hard to do as regards the 180 is not verbalising my total disgust at his lack of morals - he has destroyed at least two families in his endeavours with 6 children involved in total. I find it hard to keep my mouth shut on that one!! Anyway, enough for today. Will no doubt be spending a lot of time on this site. Great support though and good advice, not a load of silly, unrealistic abusive stuff that I have come across elsewhere. Thinking of everyone and I know that there are many many people that are going through the same pain (if not more) that I am going through right now. That breaks my heart. Take care everyone. Love Ellejay xxx
The only contact I agreed with over the past 4 years was work only contact as he is a contractor and gets referrals from the insurance agency where she is a customer service rep...yep she serviced him alright!. It has gone beyond that, the last 6 months went from that to secret email, facebook, lunches and daily phone calls. That is not work related.
I thought he would go NC as he says he is committed to the marriage. From what I see, if I were him and knowing my wife was about to divorce over the the mess, I would go NC without being told..obviously we are two different people. Plus I would not stoop so low as to have a pa and ea for 4 years!
I find it difficult to accept that anyone could want to hold on to a wedding ring as a symbol of "love" when they held no value on its significance when they were having their affairs.
According to my neighbor he told her that he "loved" her and was going to leave me for her.
It is obviously essential for the OP in a LTA (particularly women) to be made to feel that they are "loved".
They are simply narcissists.
I believe that when you truly "love" someone you are mindful of how your actions will affect them at all times.
Ellejay, I learned all love stuff this from my IC, reading many books, The 5 Languages of Love, and attending Retrouvaille. (NJgal.. I do see why you believe sex is not love and I do agree, whores and rape are not. But once you cross that line of touch, I believe all sex is love. In your case, Your H was addicted and living a life of illusion… a series of prostitution visits. Maybe that sex is not love. It is different for me. My wife was not addicted. She flat out love two people.)
Ellejay, did your H say he wanted to try an save the marriage? Has he stopped seeing OW? Did he give you some sort of remorse? Regret? I think this is a must. Your H must now realize, understand, deeply absorb, a sense of what is right and wrong… This is very hard for someone who is so selfish and greedy to comprehend. It sometimes can happen with just being caught. It sometimes can happen once they get a taste of “loss”.. That is what the 180 is about… Giving them a sense of “loss”… You can ask them to leave, that may do it. But until they really want you, deeply want you back, It really is a lost cause. They just won’t “get it”… It’s so hard.
One thing I find hard to do as regards the 180 is not verbalising my total disgust at his lack of morals - he has destroyed at least two families in his endeavours with 6 children involved in total. I find it hard to keep my mouth shut on that one!!.
My “real” mental pain is gone today. I have not cried in over a month. The thoughts of infidelity hit me daily but I view them as just part of me today. It comes with change. You can get there. My W treats me extremely different today. .. as I do her. I think we both are reaching the most mature love… It feels good. I hope you can get there and know it can happen.
mitz66… I know my consequences of crossed boundaries. I think I have the courage to keep them but who knows and I hope I never have that day… I think you H does not know what it means to lose you or flat out doesn’t care. You deserve to be happy and I hope you risk all to achieve it… Nothing is better than to have those good feelings inside. NOTHING… Sometime I think it is greener on the other side.
Peace to all today…
[This message edited by trynhard at 8:16 AM, January 2nd (Sunday)]