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User Topic: Long Term Affair Part 21
rollercoaster80
♀ Member
Member # 23412
Default  Posted: 11:47 AM, January 2nd (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have been reading the comments on love and find it interesting. I, too, struggle with the question of love. I guess love is different things to different people. I have not read five languages of love (plan to soon)but from what others have said we interpret love and express love differently.

I do not believe my fws loved any of his APs with the possible enception of his longest (5 year A). I think at the time he believed he cared for and perhaps loved her in a way. He denies this but he did try to paint her in a good light to me both during the A and after dday.I do believe that he was "foggy" during this time and when he actually looked at what she was doing, he was disgusted by her,or so he says to me. He stayed in contact with her for 20 years and even after dday felt the need to call her and say goodbye.(he does not generally stay in touch with people so he somehow felt a connection) She made him feel good and was a connection to his past business but I don't think this was really love.But maybe to him it was? I don't know.
I do not understand how he could do all he did and state that he loved me. I was there for him. I was family and he loved me in that sense yet he put his own wants and needs before my/our well being. I don't know if this is love. He brought the APs around me and interjected them into our lives.This was a "kick" for him. Yet when asked if he had sex with a particular worker, he stated he wouldn't do that to his cousin(She was his cousin's GF)Yet he had no thoughts of what he was doing to me. He also tried to kiss our Goddaughter who we have known since she was a baby. Why would he do that to her?He describes it as being sick and out of control and I guess, that definition seems to describe it best. Yet is he really capable of really loving me? I'm not really sure. I think he wants to be there for me but when push comes to shove will he? I am not sure.Hopefully he can grow to this point. He seems to be making great strides. It is hard to understand how or what he was thinking and his only answer is/was I don't know. I was sick.

I have been moving on in R. I cannot control what will happen in ther future. We only have now. So far, so good.I know in my heart that I have tried and have given my all. So I will take him at his word that he loves me in his own way as I love him in my way. I am happy in our life together. We enjoy each others company and he treats me well.( aside form the As) I love our family and our family life and we have dreams and wishes for our future life together. I am comfortable and content.

If he loved her or thought he loved her or didn't love her;it does not really affect my/our now. I may not understand why he or anyone else chooses to do certain things. We are two seperate and different people on different journeys together.

The important thing is that I/we are happy in our now.

None of us really know what tommorrow will bring.

Best wihes to all on this site. We are on a difficult journey. Thanks for all of your support.


me 55 fbw
him 67 FWH/SA
married 32 years
together 31 years my whole adult life!
4 s, 1 stepd, 2 grand kids

multiple A's, 2 LTA's,multiple indescretions...before and throughout our marriage


Posts: 1047 | Registered: Mar 2009 | From: sarasota, fl
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 12:10 PM, January 2nd (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Very well stated...Rollercoaster...
"all we do have is now'.

My take on all the 'love' discussion is that MY definition of true, deep, committed, mature love is very different from anything that the affair partners were involved in!
Some may have defined it as love but in my opinion it was not anything resembling true love.
Kind of like a teenager that spouts off that she is really 'in love' with Justin Bieber or some other pop star.
She can say what she wants but in IMHO it isn't love.
Same with the affair partners.
What they are experiencing could be lust, infatuation (mostly it's infatuation with the heady feeling that all the secrecy and flattery is giving them).

But, that's neither here nor there.

I agree with you rollercoaster, I am happy with my marriage today.

I am not happy that my husband was such a broken, immoral and toxic person in the past but....all I have is the present.

He is not that person any longer.
He says that he now appreciates me in a way he never did...
He loves me (now)....
does it hurt to think that he did not love me enough not to cheat on me?
sure...
and it has taken me 4 yrs to get to this place of acceptance.
But, he has been saying and doing all of the right things for the past 4 yrs.
And I feel like I have finally turned a corner on acceptance and forgiveness after 4 long years of struggling to recover from the betrayal.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
rollercoaster80
♀ Member
Member # 23412
Default  Posted: 1:52 PM, January 2nd (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I also believe that I have turned the corner. I am truely happy. I can look at old pictures and be happy. The As are apart of our past. I am not happy it is there but I have come to terms with it. It has taken alot of effort, yelling, crying, soul searching and just plain hard work to get to this place. My marriage is better. I am sorry it took this to make it better. I feel we are in the palce we should have been all along. The lies put a wall up and until diclosure and truth we were unable to even see it. I have been through alot these past almost 3 years. I/we still go to M/C even though we have not been there for several months due to medical issues, tests and surgery. I feel stronger as opposed to broken down. I am in a good place. I am happy with me. Our kids see us kissing and hugging and smile(most of the time).

Can it happen again. Perhaps. I am not naive enough to think it could not. Could this be false R, I don't think so but again perhaps. But for today I will enjoy what is mine today. We never know what tomorrow will bring. I am a stronger person now. I no longer have rose colored glasses but that lets me also see the joy more clearly.

I wish all SIers and "the tribe" a wonderful, peaceful and enlightened New Year.

rc80


me 55 fbw
him 67 FWH/SA
married 32 years
together 31 years my whole adult life!
4 s, 1 stepd, 2 grand kids

multiple A's, 2 LTA's,multiple indescretions...before and throughout our marriage


Posts: 1047 | Registered: Mar 2009 | From: sarasota, fl
rollercoaster80
♀ Member
Member # 23412
Default  Posted: 2:14 PM, January 2nd (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Our journey was not as sweet and sappy as that last post sounded but YES I am happy.


me 55 fbw
him 67 FWH/SA
married 32 years
together 31 years my whole adult life!
4 s, 1 stepd, 2 grand kids

multiple A's, 2 LTA's,multiple indescretions...before and throughout our marriage


Posts: 1047 | Registered: Mar 2009 | From: sarasota, fl
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 3:10 PM, January 2nd (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Same with me...it has been a rough, long journey... it has taken me 4 yrs to get to this place.
But, worth it in the end.
We also have a better marriage now than we did pre-affair.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
Ellejay
♀ Member
Member # 30498
Default  Posted: 3:33 PM, January 2nd (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks Trynhard

There are so many questions that my WH still needs to answer but he has withdrawn for now stating he is at 1% and struggling to be there knowing the pain he has caused everyone.

did your H say he wanted to try an save the marriage? Has he stopped seeing OW? Did he give you some sort of remorse? Regret? I think this is a must. Your H must now realize, understand, deeply absorb, a sense of what is right and wrongÖ

He has shown remorse in writing and verbally but I don't see it in his eyes yet. What he has done, the tackiness of it all, the explicit sex stuff I believe he is so embarrassed about he just can't face sitting down with me and going through it all a-z. He's even said that if I have read all the emails between him and these women then there is not much more to tell. Well obviously, there is a lot more to tell from my point of view if only for closure for me.

We are separated, I kicked him out of the house day 1. He did not put up a fight about being kicked out but almost accepted it as his fate. If it were me, I would be sending begging letters every day even if I knew they were likely to end up in the bin, but hey that's just me! He has emailed me though to say that what he has done will be his "greatest shame" for the rest of his life.

He is not in contact with the OW nextdoor. There is a police injunction against him contacting my neighbours (that's another story!). I believe he still deals with the OW2 through one of our clients which makes me very uncomfortable as I am still involved in our family business but I'm assuming the PA has ended. I will soon find out if this is not the case.

I can't even bring myself to look at him he has hurt me so deeply. I do believe my H has some narcissistic tendencies although he has never been verbally or physically aggressive. It is the marked need for constant validation, attention and flattery from others that points to this in my opinion but I am no expert. I don't believe that me and the kids will ever be enough for him that's why I feel we are a lost cause. All trust is gone for now.

Thanks for listening to my ramblings. I sound like a broken record at times. Just need to look after myself, my health is the most important thing to me right now.

Found a great passage in the Louise L Hay book "Meditations to Heal Your Life". It is regarding Loss:


Nature abhors a vacuum. When one thing leaves my life, then something else will come to take its place. Even the loss of a job or a relationship can be a signal that something far greater is coming to take its place. Instead of going into fear or becoming bitter, I open my heart, and I open my arms wide, and I say. "Even better things are coming. I trust Life to take care of me, and I am safe." Then I pay attention to the good in my life.

NEW AND WONDERFUL EXPERIENCES NOW ENTER MY LIFE.

Louise L Hay

Take care everyone. Ellejay xxxxx


Married 25 years now divorced.
D-Day: 20/11/10
Me: 48.5 plus 10% GST
Him: mental age 6 (apologies to all 6 year olds)
Betrayal: Who cares anymore?

Posts: 1073 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Adelaide, South Australia
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 7:25 PM, January 2nd (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Keep reading those Louise Hay affirmations!
I had a CD of hers that I listened to in the car when I dove to and from work.
I was barely hanging on and needed as much help as I cold get.
I cried every single day, most of the day for a year post d-day.
Finding out about a LTA is definitely very traumatizing. And doubly so when the betrayal occurred with a trusted friend.

As for your husband's reaction. My H was in a state of shock himself after d-day. Strange really..it was as if he just found out about it also.
He went to IC immediately after d-day and continued going for 1 and 1/2 yrs. He also started going to AA.
I think that getting the help from both IC and AA is what helped him to understand himself, his behavior and the reason why we were able to reconcile.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
lostsuol
♀ Member
Member # 13706
Default  Posted: 9:46 PM, January 2nd (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So fail. be bad at things. be embarrassed. be afraid. be vulnerable. go out on a limb or two or twelve, and you will fall and itíll hurt but the harder you fall, the farther you will rise. the louder you fall, the clearer your future becomes. failure is a gift, welcome it. there are people who spend their whole lives wondering how they became the people they became, how certain chances pass them by, why they didnít take the roads less traveled. those people arenít you. you have front row seats to your own transformation, and in transforming yourself, you might even transform the world and it will be electric, and i promise it will be terrifying. embrace that; embrace the new person youíre becoming. this is your moment. i promise you, it is now. now, not two minutes from now, not tomorrow, but really now. own that; know that deep in your bones and go to sleep every night knowing that. wake up every morning remembering that and then... keep going

-unknown

A Facebook friend posted this today. I'm wondering if this applies to our situation or not. I'm trying to face the new year with a positive attitude.

Nj: just read your PM but am going to bed so will reply tmo.

{{{LTA tribe}}}


Posts: 808 | Registered: Feb 2007 | From: Canada
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 10:25 PM, January 2nd (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We had a perfect NYE and New Years Day together at a resort with the boat. On our way to pick up DS18 (9 hour round trip) we got word my MIL died this evening. In the next week all the players from the get-together last September will be reassembelled for the funeral. The molesting Uncle, the BIL who did sexting/phone sex with FWW, the stepdaughter who blames me for for everything wrong in her and FWW's life. The difference is I will be there too, most likely with both our DSs. I am going to support FWW and for us to present a united front. I know this will be stressful for her, I hope there is not a repeat of September. I moved out after that one. I do not have surviving another one of these in me. I will be face to face with her molesting uncle and my BIL.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3968 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
strongish
♀ Member
Member # 29259
Default  Posted: 11:26 PM, January 2nd (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Happy New Year to the Tribe. Also, welcome to the newbies. I hope that you find the people in this corner of SI to be as caring and full of wisdom as I have/do. As Laura said we are all in different stages of healing and that's part of what makes this group special. In most cases, someone on this site has heard the same thing or had the same experience and can help the rest of us navigate the waters of a post-DDay marriage. I know that I get a lot of good encouragement and support here.


Posts: 490 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Texas
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 7:36 AM, January 3rd (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

atsenaotie... My IC always told me, in that tough situation, make a plan and stick to it. Keep your strenght. I'm sure you'll get through all this.

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 7:45 AM, January 3rd (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

First, I'd like to welcome our newbies and assure all of you that you will find great comfort and support here.

I'd also like to wish each of you all the best in this coming year. May all of us find the peace and happiness we so deserve.

ATS - I'm so sorry to hear about your MIL but was so glad to see that you will be going with your W so that together you can stand united in front of her dysfunctional family. More importantly, I hope your W leans on you for comfort and sees what a gem she has in you.

I also wanted to add my thoughts on the "love" discussion that has been so interesting this past weekend. Now I don't know if it's because I am 5 years out (as of 12/23) or if it is just my nature, but honestly I don't really dwell on how my H felt about the OW. To me, that is not the most important question. There are 2 other questions that I have spent these past 5 years trying to answer.
The first question I have taken my time trying to answer in my own head and heart is, "Do I believe with all my heart that my H truly loves me now?" This is not a question IMHO that can be answered in the first few months following d-day, or even the first year or two. When a spouse has spent years (8 plus in my case) betraying you, telling themselves whatever lies they need to in order to rationalize their behavior, denying you emotional support, physical love, companionship, when basically those entire years are full of lies and hateful behavior, it was not easy for me to believe, when my FWS repeatedly told me, that he loved me, never wanted to lose me, didn't realize how much he loved me until he stood to lose me, and on and on. I needed so much more than his words, after all, he was the consummate liar. His words meant very little. I needed proof. I needed him to prove to me on a daily basis through his actions that his words were true. I needed him to commit to MC'ing, IC'ing and to be open each and every time I needed to discuss the A with him. I needed him to answer my questions, no matter how many times I asked the same ones over and over. I needed him to comfort me for hours while I cried. I needed him to drop whatever it was he was doing if I wanted to talk, or to cry or to be held. I needed to come first always. I needed him to end those friendships with people who were toxic for our relationship. I needed him to immediately end the relationship with the OW and because she was his employee, I needed him to dismiss her immediately (even though there was the risk of her crying sexual harrassment). I needed him to list those "cognitive distortions" that he used during those years to convince himself that he was "entitled" to his 8 year LTA. We took these to our MC and discussed them so that he could see how these were the lies he told himself and were never based on truth.
I am 5 years out now and I now do believe him when he tells me he loves me but I never would have allowed myself to believe him if he hadn't been so willing and relatively consistent (there were pitfalls )to prove this to me on a daily basis with his actions.

The second question and to me the most important question I needed to answer (and sometimes still am not sure about) is whether or not I love him. Yes, I do love him on a superficial basis, but having learned all those horrible things about my H, realizing that the man I thought I loved and knew didn't really exist, has challenged my love for him and forced me to search for this most important answer. Is it really possible to love someone deeply, intimately, completely, when that someone has behaved so hatefully, so selfishly and so destructively toward you and when that someone ripped out your heart and tore it to shreds all for a sordid, sexual depraved A with someone so low, so depraved herself.
As I've said, I am 5 years out and even though my H has to a great degree proven to me that he does love me and is willing to do whatever it is I need in order to prove this to me, I still find myself lying in bed at night asking myself, "but do I love him?". The rose colored glasses are off and now I see this man for who he really was and it may take a few more years for me to really be convinced of this new, more loving, more devoted man that I now see before me. I know others are more capable of accepting and loving their FWS's and I do envy them but my heart has never felt so broken and I am now the sole protector of this fragile heart and cannot open it completely to someone who so carelessly fractured it out of his own sense of entitlement.

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 8:17 AM, January 3rd (Monday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 8:09 AM, January 3rd (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ats: I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you. I realize that your wife's emotional state may not be conducive to this, but ideally it would be a good idea to discuss with her how the 2 of you are going to handle being in this sitch, especially as to the 3 people that are going to be there. Definitely something more specific than being united - as it appears that your wife needs to have these type of things spelled out for her (I'm just thinking of some ofthe mass miscommunication you guys have had - particularly where you thought she told you it was over - meaning your M= and she had no recollection of it.) IDK - use your best judgment- she may be so upset that she's not capable of using all of her new found skills, etc.
Like I said, I will keep my fingers crossed.

ForgivenotForget:
I really enjoyed your post. I approached my H last night about us not spending time together yesterday and as he quickly became defensive and showed his typical attitude of "Here we go again..." where I can't even make any kind of observation without it being perceived as bitching & moaning, I quickly got real pissed off. All the A crap came out - a lot less emotional than usual, but still non-productive. On New Year's Eve I seriously thought of telling him it was over between us and I wound up telling him that last night - that that was what I was thinking on NYE. That was pretty stupid/mean of me. Within a 1/2 hour, I apologized for telling him that and told him more succinctly that I do not feel loved or safe in this M. I feel like I am going thru life alone. Yes, things between us are better than before, but that's still how I feel.

I can't say 1/2 of the things you said in your post about my H, and I that has everything to do with where I am now.

I don't feel like he REALLY loves me. And, as I do not understand how he could've conducted himself in the way he did during and after the A, I have a hard time feeling much for him.

I told him I'm sick of chasing him, pulling him along with this reconciliation.
He's made changes, which he likes to point out & he's going to mc (which he detests) but it's not enough to me.

At best, I do not think he is capable of supporting my new emotional needs.


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 8:48 AM, January 3rd (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I approached my H last night about us not spending time together yesterday and as he quickly became defensive and showed his typical attitude of "Here we go again..." where I can't even make any kind of observation without it being perceived as bitching & moaning, I quickly got real pissed off. All the A crap came out - a lot less emotional than usual, but still non-productive. On New Year's Eve I seriously thought of telling him it was over between us and I wound up telling him that last night - that that was what I was thinking on NYE. That was pretty stupid/mean of me. Within a 1/2 hour, I apologized for telling him that and told him more succinctly that I do not feel loved or safe in this M.

Allgood - there are so many things I see in your post that makes me wish you had our MC. I do credit our MC with getting through to my H when my words couldn't.
The first thing is your H's defensiveness. I don't have to tell you how counterproductive this is for your healing. Our MC had to remind my H frequently that he WAS NOT TO RESPOND DEFENSIVELY to anything I told him. It took some time for this to finally sink in but once it did, we finally were able to make some progress. Perhaps this is a point you need to open up in one of your next MC'ing sessions. As BS's, we need to speak freely and honestly about our feelings and our FWS's MUST be open to listening to us, and instead of responding defensively, they need to try to work through these feelings with us in a loving and supportive way. Until our S's are willing to acknowledge the damage their A's have done, accept full responsibility for them, and make a full commitment to help us work through our pain, true R cannot begin IMHO.
The second thing I highlighted from your post about "all the A crap coming out" being "stupid or mean" well I just hope you don't believe that. You absolutely must feel free to share your feelings with your H. If you feel you have to bottle these negative feelings up, it will only serve to frustrate and anger you and this too is so counterproductive to R. Again, we had a great MC and he repeatedly told my H that he had created a massive wound that needed to be lanced so that all the poison could be released and that unless my H was willing to let this poison spill out from me, I would never truly heal. That didn't give me the freedom to be cruel or to curse at my H and call him names and berate and belittle him but it did give me the total freedom to speak honestly about what my H's A did to me. It also gave me the right to ask whatever questions I needed answers to and even if my H didn't always know the answer, I knew our MC would support me and push my H to make an attempt to respond.
Finally, I think the most important thing is "feeling safe" in our M after such a betrayal. What I never understand is why our S's fail to see how everything they do and say after d-day either promotes feelings of safety and love or further deteriorates these critical feelings. Afterall, if a FWS chooses to accept the very generous offer from us to R, then WTF are they thinking it will take from them to convince us that we are safe and will be loved completely from that day forward????
It takes a great deal of courage for a BS to make this offer. Our FWS's are the one who brought us to this place - why should we be the ones to do all the work??? This may seem like a simple analogy (Honest is so much better at this) but if one of your children destroys a room, creating a mess from floor to ceiling, do you go in and clean it up by yourself or do you expect that child to, at the very least, participate in the cleanup. Your H and mine have made this mess and together we must work to bring it back to a place of safety, love and comfort.
(((Allgood)))

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 8:56 AM, January 3rd (Monday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 10:06 AM, January 3rd (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've liked this song for years -- since long before I met my H

As Cool As I Am
by Dar Williams

Yea, there was a time I didnt like the love, I liked the climbers,
I was no sister then, I was running out of time and one liners,
And I was afraid, like you are when youre too young to know the time, and
So I watched the way you take your fear and hoard the horizon,
You point, you have a word for every woman you can lay your eyes on,
Like you own them just because you bought the time,
And you turn to me, you say you hope Im not threatened,

Oh -- Im not that petty, as cool as I am, I thought youd know this already,
I will not be afraid of women, I will not be afraid of women.

So now were at a club, you watch the woman dancing, she is drunk,
She is smiling and shes falling in a slow, descending funk,
And the whole bar is loud and proud and everybodys trying, yeah.
You play the artist, saying, is it how she moves, or how she looks?
I say, its loneliness suspended to our own like grappling hooks,
And as long as shes got noise, shes fine.
But I could teach her how I learned to dance when the musics ended,

Oh -- and thats not petty, as cool as I am, I thought youd know this already,
I will not be afraid of women, I will not be afraid of women.

You tried to make me doubt, to make me guess, tried to make me feel like a little less,
Oh, I liked you when your soul was bared, I thought you knew how to be scared,
And now its amazing what you did to make me stay,
But truth is just like time, it catches up and it just keeps going,

And so Im leaving, you can find out how much better things can get,
And if it helps, Id say I feel a little worse than I did when we met,
So when you find someone else, you can try again, it might work next time,
You look out of the kitchen window and you shake your head and say low,
if I could believe that stuff, Id say that woman has a halo,
And I look out and say, yeah, shes really blond,
And then I go outside and join the others, I am the others,

Oh -- and thats not easy, I dont know what you saw, I want somebody who sees me,
I will not be afraid of women, I will not be afraid of women.

Well, much as I've non-deliberately 180'ed you folks, I've non-deliberately 180'ed my H.

You see, for the past 13 months I've wanted over and over to call my XH. In fact, on D-day the only thing I wanted to do was get on a plane to go see him. But I didn't. Because that would be a chicken-shit thing to do and my kids only need one chicken-shit parent.

Anyway, I really felt like, after a year of constantly wanting to talk to XH that there was really something behind that and I should do something about it. So, XH has been unwell -- he just had his 3rd spine surgery from a car accident he had a few months ago (we have mutual friends -- when you go to HS together and spend 11 years in a relationship you retain mutual friends over the long haul) and he's a newlywed -- and I really felt like it was inappropriate to disturb him with my problems, so I did the next best thing.

I called up his second XW. She was a friend of my sister's from middle school and we were friends before I ever dated/married XH. And we're friends again now -- I felt like she was a decent proxy for my situation.

Anyway, it was extremely helpful. My instincts were right on the money. You see, there's nothing like one failing marriage to make a person romanticize a past relationship. So, from my friend I learned two things that are extremely important to me. First, the problems that led to my D from XH persisted with him through her marriage as well. And they were together for 7 years after XH and I divorced. So, I'm confident that I made the right call in filing for D back then. That is so helpful to me because it helps me let go of that romanticizing.

But, more importantly, I learned that XH never cheated on me. I never thought he did during the M except at the very end -- but he would have no reason to lie to her. She said he was very nervous when they first got together because I was the only person he'd ever been with and he was worried about that since she had more experience.

Anway, this was very meaningful to me. XH waited 2 years for me to be ready to sleep with him. We were 19. He was faithful to me during multiple long separations -- going to different colleges more than 1000 miles apart, when he went to Europe repeatedly with his parents, etc. as a teenager and a man in his early twenties. As a guy with multiple women chasing him. As a guy who was young, super in shape, well-endowed -- he was faithful. For 8 years.

To me, it's all about character. That's the choice my XH made. At half the age my WH was when he chose to lie, deceive, cheat, and torment me by gaslighting, arranging for me to befriend his OP, etc.

I have just thought, over and over this past year, good people do bad things sometimes -- but there's a line. If you do enough bad things, eventually you become a bad person.

My XH he treated me very well. He did at least half of everything around the house. He never spoke badly of me to anyone. He was a gentleman and he wrote me poetry and was deeply romantic. The problems that ended our M, they were real and tragic. But at the end of the day, I divorced him for much less than what my WH has put me through, even though XH consistently treated me better than WH ever has and even though his very worst was better than what I'm dealing with now.

And I am confident that the D from XH was a very good decision.

So -- I just don't see how my current M can work out. I've signed us up for MC. I hope he'll go. They'll probably have a spot in mid-February. I'm going through Catholic Charities because I want to be sure to find a pro-M therapist.

But the paradigm shift for me has happened. And it's this: I honestly do not care whether or not this M works out anymore. I've been miserable with this man ever since The Pasha was born. I no longer care what his major malfunction is. his problems are going to have to be his problems. The only things I want to talk about in the MC are his parenting, him needing to be more respectful and listen to me more, and whatever he wants to talk about. I have a set of options. I don't like any of them. I will continue to choose whichever one I think is best while trying to shape my life so that better options are available.

If he wants the M, he has time. I've identified a set of things I feel need to be accomplished before a D would be a better option than the M. I will be working hard to meet those goals. I am taking us to MC to give him the opportunity to forge the best possible relationship with me, whether or not we decide that is a M. That is what is best for us and for our kids.

Much as tryn has said -- i do have a list of automatic dealbreakers. If none of them happen, I anticipate starting 2012 married as well. 2013 -- I don't know. And that's not something I'm going to worry about either. I'm making long-range plans again. They neither include or preclude him.

I was visting the in-laws. Had a lovely visit! MIL turned 70!

As for the great love debate: WH would never be honest whether he loved OW. OW told me repeatedly that she loves WH -- I just didn't realize that was what she was saying. I think it's possible WH didn't love her -- and was attracted by her loving him. Or maybe he did love her. Maybe he doesn't love me and only liked that I loved him. It doesn't matter. I'm indifferent. All of those things are their problems and not mine.


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 10:46 AM, January 3rd (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ForgivenotForget- I could only skim your post and M3 I plan on going back to re-read, but had to get this out now while I can (H is lurking).

IT'S OVER.

Logged onto "my" fb account today and found a picture of my H and OW at the xmas party sitting next to each other at a table, with no one else at the table. He appears to be looking at her, she appears to be looking straight ahead. They were only in the background, so that's all I could get.
Told my H that I came across some pics and that it appears to be a photo of him and her. He denies any contact with her. I finally show it to him and he acknowledges that it's them, but denies having ever spoken to her. (Honestly, this is where I start to get off the charts crazy...) His story is that right before the photo was taken there was a bunch of people there, this was a split second in time, probably right before he walked off.
Obviously I don't believe a word of it. And, he hasn't built up enough good will with me for me to overlook this and believe such a ridiculous story. THey are seated together alone at a table for God's sake! Yet, he sticks to his story, evern after I told him I'm done, laid out the parameters for when we are telling the kids, etc. I told him he's got nothing to lose, so come clean at least let me go forward with a clear conscience, that I didn't jump the gun on this. But, no. Sticking to his story.
Of course, since I had nothing left to lose, I showed him all the trashy pics of OW that she's been splashing all over the internet and commented on what a nice girl she is.
Got to go.
Wish me well.


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 11:08 AM, January 3rd (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Allgood- I am speechless. I can only imagine your hurt and your rage at having seen this photo. And what a complete fucktard your H was to deny that he had any contact with her only to be proven the liar when you showed him the picture.
He needs to make a complete and total turnaround or he will lose you. You say he is lurking. Is he trying to get you to believe his story in a truly apologetic way or is he being defensive and argumentative?
I'm not sure if you ever posted this so forgive me for not knowing if you did but have you ever asked him to leave until you decided what you wanted? Perhaps a temporary separation might be the best alternative at this time instead of immediately filing for D.
NJGal's H quickly came out of his fog while they were separated. I also filed a separation agreement and this had a very good effect on my H. Sometimes until they are confronted with the reality of S or D, it is enough to get them to really commit to R and the M.
I will be on all day checking in if you need to talk.
I am so sorry this has happened but maybe now your H will finally wake up and realize all he stands to lose.
((((((((((((Allgood))))))))))

ETA - do you know who posted the picture to your fb acct?
I would want to contact that person to see if they had other information that might be useful. I find it curious that it was posted to your acct in the first place.

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 11:18 AM, January 3rd (Monday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 11:37 AM, January 3rd (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Allgood, you are completely doing the right thing. It sucks, but I am 100% behind you on this one.


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 11:52 AM, January 3rd (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have just thought, over and over this past year, good people do bad things sometimes -- but there's a line. If you do enough bad things, eventually you become a bad person.

M3 - A very long time ago I read a book, The Wizard of Earthsea, and there was a line in it, similar to what you said here, that I have never forgotten and is probably one of the main reasons I've allowed myself so much time before really believing in my H's love and transformation.
I have spent some time this morning looking for the book (I know it's here somewhere ) but no luck so I'll have to paraphrase the message and possibly botch the message a little - my apologies.
The tale was about a young man who decided to go off and explore his darker side. He had spent a great deal of time in this phase until one day a great wizard who had been his mentor came to him and said, Be careful not to stay in this phase too long, or it will become who you are. (Again, this is so poorly worded but you get the gist.)
My H spent years in a very self-indulgent, destructive and entitled phase living an amoral lifestyle, using me and his OW and lying to whomever and whenever it suited his interests. Did he become this man permanently, has he always been this man (he did cheat on his first wife with 3 different OW) or is it possible that he has made a permanent change to the "good side" and can now be trusted? I wonder how many of us struggle to answer this question of our BS's.
ETA - Oops - looks like I put your quote in bold rather than boxing it - hope that doesn't confuse anyone.

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 11:58 AM, January 3rd (Monday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 12:10 PM, January 3rd (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Some clarification - the pic posted on facebook was just generally posted on someone else's page, not to my fb account, I just have access to it.

We never seperated. He promised nc right away and I wanted to work it out. He said the same. I found he broke nc a month later (which he admits consisted of numerous calls for 2 weeks on a secret phone OW gave him.) At that point, I told him I was done, then reconsidered, acknowledging that he had a bond with this woman and told him I would wait for him. I wouldn't R while he was having anything to do with her, but I would wait for him to end the relationship with her. He ended it the next day.
We have 4 young children, the youngest being 2 years old. Our eldest has a number of difficulties in school as it is, and he is my most sensitive child. Also the one who is the least likely to tell someone when he is upset. You see he's tortured in a sense, but he doesn't reach out for help. Out of all my kids, I worry the most about him in general and also with regard to our break up.
I have left the door open for my husband. I told him that if he should ever do some serious soul searching and want to try this again, I would be willing to listen. I'm not waiting though. I told him that I prefer if we not tell the kids until the summer, so there will be the least impact upon them during the school year.
I am willing to try to cohabit. H has spent the better part of the day cleaning out the workroom, so I assume he is going to relocate down there in the near future. AT that point I guess there would be no hiding it - tho excuses could be made for the kids that might actually be believable now that I think about it.
Anyway, as far as the lurking goes, he doesn't seem to be looking to work his way back in. I think he never thought it was going to work to begin with . This is the kind of guy he is - he accepts it. He doesn't show emotion. He doesn't beg for another chance. Makes it a lot easier in a way, but it also stings - that not only did I lose out to OW, but he's not willing to fight for it either. I realize that last sentiment is crap for a lot of reasons, but nonetheless, it stings.
It just amazes me that he can look at the photo with me, acknowledge it's him and her (which I expected him to deny as the quality of the photo was very poor), yet maintain he had no conversation with her. No explanation. No answer to questions like who sat down at the table first? Why were you alone at the table if you were there first?, etc. Says he doesn't remember it at all, tho he's acknowledging that he wasn't drunk enough to be claiming this was a blackout drunken thing.
I am so, so, so sad.
I am so attached to him.
Even tho our R efforts were struggling, I still was happy to have a choice. Now, I know that after all the crap we have been through, after he knew how unsettled I was at that party, after he spent the whole party sending me reassuring texts, etc., that he still couldn't keep his promise to me. She has that big a draw on him. That hurts.
I have to just keep reminding myself that he's just not who I thought/hoped he was. I'm losing the fantasy. The dream. Nothing else.


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

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