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User Topic: Long Term Affair Part 22
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 3:01 PM, January 8th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Miracle: I am thinking of you.

Honest: Please check in.

Fun: Where the Hell have you been?

As for me - it's becoming increasingly clear that my M is doner than done. (Dip - help me out with a witty saying, would you, please?)

H doesn't even try to coax me out of my 180. Spent the entire evening apart last night, even after the kids had gone to bed - and I wasn't avoiding him - I was in the same room all night taking down the Christmas tree.

He did check in on me a few times today, but I kept it quick & to the point, as did he.

Now, he will come home from work for maybe 2-3 hours, then go out to watch football at a bar with friends (friends that I approve of - not that anyone is asking or that it matters), then tomorrow he's going away with 2 friends from work that I dont' approve of til Mon eve.

Gotta go - princess is screaming.

And, I am about to lose it. I get the cake-eating as a lifestyle means they just behave differently. But - he can accept this split with no looking back? All he can say is he wants this but...
That's amazing to me.
Wow.
Just keep me in your thoughts this weekend please.

Peace all.

[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 4:01 PM, January 8th (Saturday)]


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 4:12 PM, January 8th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Allgood-
Wow! is all I can say too!
Do you think he could still be involved with the OW?
His lack of fight...detachment... etc.
could it be that he's just not saying it but he's still in the fog and is not sure if he wants the marriage?

what does he say about his overnight trip with his friends? where is he going? and why?
do any of his friends, relatives etc. know about the affair? is there anyone that can talk some sense into him?

he needs someone to sit him down and look him in the eye and ask him what in the world is he thinking?
does he want to walk away from his marriage and his family?
for what?
all you can do is what you are doing... 180.
You have told him that you want to save the marriage but...that things have to change...
he just doesn't want to make any of the changes...
cake eating.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 4:34 PM, January 8th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Allgood - is there anyone else who can talk some sense into your H?


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3327 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 4:45 PM, January 8th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Tribe, I am working off my cell and reading more than posting. iwam, I really empathize when you say that you have been dealing with this for 2 years and essentially in limbo and waiting.

agng, he has shown you who he is. I am sorry for you and your family.

honest, I lost the quote, but you mentioned trying to pretend things were OK, or something similar. This is not 180, this is not feeling your feelings and being honest. As long as you try to pretend things are OK, he will still have power over you. ((honesttoafault)).

There was some discussion of when do you know if a ws is remorseful and ready to R. I am of the opinion that if there is any question, then the ws is not prepared or doing the right things. I often wondered about fww, and we had up and downs. Once she "got it" there was little or no question in my mind that she wanted to R and was doing what is necessary. As for R without third-party, njgal, tryn, and I have all had extensive third party assistance.

FWW broke out in tears of happiness today for how we are doing. I saw bil again today, and he remains pathetic. Yesterday DS, FWW, and I visited the towns where we met, dated, and started our M. It was bittersweet knowing what our hopes were, and what happened.

I can recall the A stuff and it hurts, but it is not where we are. FWW is seeing us, herself, and her family differently. It is wierd how easy-going life with her is now.

For those who are struggling, it took a year for FWW to commit to R and fixing herself. If I had not moved out, I do not believe she would ever have reached that point.

later, Ats


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3964 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 6:58 PM, January 8th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ats-
I'm so happy to hear that your WW finally 'gets it'.
When you moved out that brought the bottom up for her. She hit bottom. She finally had to take a long hard look at herself, her life,everything.
And she realized that she did not want to lose you.And, she decided that she would do whatever it took to save the marriage.

And...you're right.. it did take a lot of outside help for us to get to the place that we are today.
My husband continues to be kind, loving, attentive every minute of every day.
In the 'old days' he got involved in buying the Xmas tree with the kids and bringing it into the house and setting it up in the stand. That was it...all the rest..the decorating and the undecorating after the holidays was up to me .
Not anymore... he helps me with the decorating. And today, I ran out in the morning and when I came back he had taken all the decorations off the tree and already stored them up in the attic.The job was done. He later took the tree to be recycled.
Then we've been having this small issue with our thermostat and he's been trying to figure out what the problem is...I said to him... "don't get grouchy about this." And, he took me in his arms and said that he wasn't grouchy...he just wanted to fix it ASAP because he wants everything to be perfect for me.
That is his promise to me from now on....
That was what he said to me when he moved back home after our 6 month separation-that his vow to me was that he would spend the rest of his life making it up to me.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 7:25 PM, January 8th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

His lack of fight...detachment... etc.
could it be that he's just not saying it but he's still in the fog and is not sure if he wants the marriage?

Is he still with OW? I really don't know. I would've said no, prior to seeing the photo and his reaction this past week, but I really don't know.

As for the marriage. I think he's fairly convinced that we will just never be happy with each other because of the A and the damage its caused. I think that's been his mindset all along. He just thought he'd stay in the M for as long as he could.

what does he say about his overnight trip with his friends? where is he going? and why?

This trip was planned prior to this week's events. They are going snowboarding. He went for the day with the same guys last year. This year they have the use of someone's house. I know one guy is bringing his gf. I have to say that does make me wonder...

do any of his friends, relatives etc. know about the affair?

Basically all of his coworkers know of it - they definitely dont' know any details like the extent of it or anything that has been going on with us - other than his partner- don't even get me started on him - he cheated on his pregnant wife with like a 19 year old or something ridiculous (this was about 10 years ago, but still...) And, I can't think of anyone who would really have the balls to confront my H about this at work.

2 of our male friends know. And already told my H he's a moron.

is there anyone that can talk some sense into him?

God maybe?

Now this ....
And, he took me in his arms and said that he wasn't grouchy...he just wanted to fix it ASAP because he wants everything to be perfect for me.
Is nice to hear NJGal. Good for you.

[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 7:27 PM, January 8th (Saturday)]


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 7:43 PM, January 8th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

njgal:

And, he took me in his arms and said that he wasn't grouchy...he just wanted to fix it ASAP because he wants everything to be perfect for me.
That is his promise to me from now on....

happy tears....truly a beautiful thing to say..


ats: i am not really in limbo as i know what i need to do, before i knew what i had to do it was excruciating waiting for him to fuck up royally so that i would know for sure...and even though he fucked up a few times, i did give him 6 months to get it together enough to be completely truthful...so at the end of the 6 months, i knew he was still lying...and has yet to stop....so that limbo thankfully is over....

but i guess that since my personal life separate from my kids is on a hold of sorts it is like a limbo...


allgood: ukgirl may be on to something...can you talk to his parents?...i know you wanted to keep this all on the qt....but maybe there is someone that telling might just jar him into his new reality if he doesn't straigten up like yesterday...

and of course we are keeping you in our thoughts and prayers...

we all want each others' happiness....everytime one of us ends up happy, whatever way we find that happiness, it gives the rest of us some hope....not to mention that we genuinely care about each other..

and yes fun, where are you?...and deeppurple too..??


ukgirl:

We are emotional creatures, and when our heartstrings are tied to those of another, separating from that person can feel like an act of courage.

when i read this i put myself into it, and every bs here....separating ourselves from our ws's, enough to see what we need to see, and hopefully enough to do what we have to do....

it takes courage to face the unknown, to face the ending of the marriage....just look at honest and myself....we both need as much courage as we can muster to move forward to do the right thing for our kids as well as ourselves....


dip:

It was said with much love and affection. Feel better now?

nope.... ...but i like the love and affection part...


strong:

It's not often we hear about your frustrations. For the nost part you are a calming influence. More than once I've wondered how you keep it together day after day, living with someone you can't stand.

thank you for the compliment....as for my fustrations, i don't usually post them because pfm is a member here, and he uses my posts to get into my head...that and i dont want him in my business..so it helps me detach....at first i was really upset, this was supposed to be a "safe place",...but it was me who sent him here in the hopes that he would be able to "see" and actually "do" with the help of others here who are all going through it....well it didn't work, instead he only posted once in a while, and every post was the same whine..so he was kind of shut down in the ws forum..they saw through his shit....and then of course he was using my posts to get into my head....

if it weren't for the pm feature i would be lost...there have been a few bs's and ws's alike who have reached out to me and allowed me to feel safe enough for me to vent, rage, talk, cry and even laugh...

the fustrations that i have been posting about lately, well there is no surprise to him there, as i don't hold back on these feelings from him and to him...so i have felt 'free' to post....

as for the keeping it together part....i don't always...i wish i did, but i don't..in front of others and my kids...i don't lose it too often with him...although i think for others the tensions are palpable at times...not all times, just sometimes....mostly because i hold lots of anger...and thankfully the rage comes and goes...the anger though, ebbs here and there...

Unlike Miracle, my youngest is 17

my youngest is 15...but none of my kids will be out of the house...commuter college for all of them unless they get full scholarship with tuition.. .....


For the most part my FWH is doing those things,

but is he really?

it's because he's "reacting" to me and not "acting" on taking ownership of what he has done

omg, i loved this....reacting and not acting on.....beautifully put strong...and this means that he is "not" doing the things he needs to do on his own....almost like you need to pull all the strings to make him do...and then if i remember correctly he's had attitude about it every step of the way with you....when what you need is for him to take action and to be remorseful through it all...that his remorse can be felt at all times...to know that he is genuine in his feelings and his actions towards you, with you and for you....


(((tribe)))

[This message edited by iwantamiracle at 7:45 PM, January 8th (Saturday)]


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 7:47 PM, January 8th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This description of our conversation today is just a snippet though...it truly doesn't describe the enormity of the road we have traveled since d-day.
I was a complete and total wreck after d-day.I had an emotional breakdown, the only thing that kept me together was Xanax. My husband saw me shattered for over a year.I had PTSD. I cried every single day for a year. Then I went into the rage phase where I behaved in ways I never knew I was capable of behaving....
My husband persevered through it all- IC, MC,MDs...separation, lawyers, almost divorce, reconciliation.A tough journey....not for the faint of heart.

Even now,4 yrs later, I still have triggers. Had one this past week but my husband's consistent love, kindness, patience make it much easier for me to let the trigger go.
A LTA is a huge betrayal-very difficult to get over even with a truly remorseful WS...IMHO impossible to get over if you are trying to do it on your own.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 7:59 PM, January 8th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

njgal:

This description of our conversation today is just a snippet though...it truly doesn't describe the enormity of the road we have traveled since d-day.

that is what is so beautiful about what he said njgal....here you are 4 long long years later, and he is still the man he promised he would be...and you are reconciled...sure you still have bad days, triggers and anger....but so do all marriages with pretty much all sich's experienced together as a couple....but here you stand 4 years later and for the most part you are happy...sure you still think about his infidelity everyday...but you are finding a place for it and more then that you are using your experience to help others here....


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
Laura28
♀ Member
Member # 28997
Default  Posted: 1:40 AM, January 9th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi all

Nell

I’m a little like you – love lists. When are you going to share yours?


AGNG

Congratulations on getting the raise!

BIG HUGS - I know you are in SO much pain. We are all with you in this!!!

he brings up a conversation about someone at work having an affair

sometimes they do the dumbist stuff and then look at us like what's wrong?

My H has been doing this for many years – and the penny never dropped!!!!! Sometimes i think I am SOOOO naive. I can’t remember more than one or two times that he’s talked about someone at the hospital and mentioned a H or W. It was always about boyfriends or girlfriends. Since dday I have asked him about this. No one there seems to be still with their H or W!!!! I think the place is so toxic that they all think it’s ok to screw around.

Tryn

I love lists. Have decided to grade my H out of 10 on your lists

- Transparent. 6. (Still doesn’t want to talk about As but does SEEM to try to answer specific questions. Still suspect a few lies though.)
- Will not intentionally do anything to harm you. 9 (Unaware of triggers)
- Make you safe as much as they can understand. 9
- Might demonstrate loyalty by leaving a job, moving… etc. ????? Hard and complicated – he still works with OW2 and OW3
- Apologize many times. 7. (Only when I rage or have a meltdown)
- Go seek help that will make them a better person. No. Few IC or MC available near us. Those that are have poor reputations.
- Showed you remorse. 7
- Starts to love you again…. compliments, touching you, doing things you need done, spending some time with you not typical of the past, small or large gifts given to you. 9
- Calls often to make sure you know where they are 10
- does not hide text, phone records, emails. 10
- goes to church again NA
- Includes you in everything 7 (Those fucking ducks!!!!)
- Trying to open up communications on an emotional level 3 (Avoids because he doesn’t want to “upset" me)
- discussing future plans that include us both in a positive way 10

Thanks Tryn for the list. Good for me to reflect on these things.

Miracle

here i am 2 years later with my heart still in pieces...

Sometimes honey I think you spend so much times on our problems that you don’t focus enough on your own. BIG HUGS

just because they are found out does not mean that they now think of others first and foremost to make amends

I think you are so right on this. I guess we assume that because they are sorry and want to “make it up” to us that they will be aware of the triggers. The ME ME ME focus of course interferes with this!!!

Strong

For the most part my FWH is doing those things (Tryn’s list) , so why am I not back in love with him, why can't I forgive and forget ……………………..He has never once initiated a conversation about the A.

I would also say that. For me initiating a conversation about the OWs would be a major sign of remorse. I know it would take great courage for him but for me it would mean real transparency.

Old Dip

I don't think they recognize these triggers because they are not thinking about the A almost every minute of everyday.

I think you are right but I’ve told him repeatedly that I think about the As all day every day but he still seems surprised when I trigger even though he also says he understands why when I explain.

UKgirl

I take myself off to another room when I get an attack of “I fucking hate you”.
Love this expression!!!

I often think of doing this. The reason I don’t is because for the last year or 2 before dday we often slept in separate beds. (Although we still used to have sex). This was because I used to be up at least 3 or 4 times a night because of my bladder problems (caused by the Chlamydia he gave me. GGGGRRRRRRR.) I slept in another room because I was concerned about disturbing him as he is a light sleeper and I always felt guilty when he woke up!!!! I do not want to go back to this.

As for the triggers, I don’t know what to suggest. I think the FWS has a blind spot when it comes to this. And there can be so many when it’s been a LTA.

I agree. I feel like I am constantly whingeing when I point them out but at the same time resent that he doesn’t recognise them. So I try not to show when I trigger and then I get both hurt AND cranky!!!

BP

I bet mine snores more loudly than yours though. Ear plugs do help but so far, I haven't found a "trigger plug" in the stores - not a legal one anyways

NJgal

he would spend the rest of his life making it up to me.

My H has said these exact words several times since dday but only when I have been having a meltdown. I really think he means it. Unfortunately because as miracle says “He does stupid so well” he often fails. At least he has good intentions – I hope that is enough.

Strong

My H also does a lot of reacting rather than acting. Maybe again it is because he “does stupid so well???”

ats

I am so envious of you and your W. Your R is so encouraging and heart warming. When I think back to what you went through I know that your determination and patience got you there. She is so lucky to have you!!!! Congratulations!!!

Honest

HUGS HUGS HUGS - all day, all night, we think of you constantly. We are here!!!!

Well tribe I think I've covered most topics discussed. When I first joined LTA I worried that I so often posted about myself and didn't respond to other people's posts enough. I now realise that I learn so much from the reflections of others on their own situations. I suppose that I am trying to thank you all for what you say about your own problems. When you describe a conversation or experience with your W or H I can often relate. The details might be different but often the effect or implications are so similar. I really appreciate hearing your stories and truly do empathise.

Thank you

M334455, Lostsuol, Ellejay, DP and No Fun - comeout comeout wherever you are!!!! We are worried about you!!

Love and peace to all

Laura

[This message edited by Laura28 at 2:10 AM, January 9th (Sunday)]


Married 30yrs Me BW 57Yrs Him FWH 59yrs
OWzero 1988 EA?/PA? Gaslighted.
Dday May 28 2010.
OW1 1994(6mths PA, EA til dday).
OW2 2002(8yrs PA).
OW3 2009(1Yr PA).
Others???? Status: Not Divorcing..but.."You can't unfuck the goat"

Posts: 2726 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Australia
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 3:56 AM, January 9th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Allgood
I think he's fairly convinced that we will just never be happy with each other because of the A and the damage its caused. I think that's been his mindset all along. He just thought he'd stay in the M for as long as he could.
If this is the case, was he thinking that OW could/would be his next step or alternative option? I ask this b/c I am sure that once the affair was out in the open, if I had thrown WH out, he would have gone straight to MOW even though it was not necessarily what he wanted. Actually, I don’t think he knew what he wanted – he was just watching everything pan out and being decided between me and MOW. Although he kept saying how sorry he was and how much he loved me, I got the feeling he was being very passive and resigned to whatever fate I decided forhim. I’m expressing this very badly, but do you get the gist?

i did give him 6 months to get it together enough to be completely truthful...so at the end of the 6 months, i knew he was still lying...
When I read stuff like this, I really regret not finding SI in the beginning, that first month or so. Mr UKg had been lying for over a year before I found SI. I never understood why when he had confessed to start with. I mean, why lie?? The result is I simply don’t really believe anything he says. And I mean anything. I either verify or let it go b/c it doesn’t matter. That business of if he tells me it’s raining, I’ll look out the window to check.

Like Strong, “FWH will never be the man I thought he was for the past 28 years. I thought he was strong, my rock....”, but it was an illusion. He let me think that and I find out after all this time that he is not and never was. The odd thing is, that while he was in the affair, he seemed to be at one of the best points in his life. He was making a good deal of money, we had the sideline business, his wit was sharp, his reactions quick, he was winning everything at golf and, of course, he had MOW adoring him. He was full of life. But his energies were directed in all directions except to his wife and children. Although he was prepared to be the smug “look at my wonderful family” husband. He could be that, knowing he had the mistress to complete the enviable package.

Now, his fall from the pedestal is so great, that I don’t see the same person at all. And he has changed. He has. He seems smaller than his 6’3”, he’s got all sorts of physical ailments that have taken over from the minor stress related ones he had during the affair, he’s not that interested in work when it used to be a welcome challenge, he’s a watcher rather than a participant in sport, the sideline business has all but finished. It’s as if I have found him out and he’s deflated, realising perhaps that he was all veneer and no substance, all mouth and no trousers, just hot air. There is bound to be a parable or an Aesop’s fable, but I can’t think of one.

as for my fustrations, i don't usually post them because pfm is a member here, and he uses my posts to get into my head...that and i dont want him in my business..
H never comes here. He’s not interested in reading anything. Nothing about affairs or anything I write. I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, I can say whatever I like but on the other I feel like he doesn’t really have that much interest in what I’m thinking or feeling. He wants to imagine everything is hunky dory.

Thankfully, although he’s on facebook, I don’t think he has looked up MOW. I keep track of her once a month. There are some new photos from Christmas with a few of her in them. She’s not smiling. She still looks sad. And even older.

Even now,4 yrs later, I still have triggers. Had one this past week but my husband's consistent love, kindness, patience make it much easier for me to let the trigger go.

njgal, this makes such good reading!

[This message edited by UKgirl at 3:59 AM, January 9th (Sunday)]


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3327 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 7:36 AM, January 9th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Morning all.

In response to few questions posed:

1. WH's father is deceased. WH's mother has always been mystified that I stayed with him. Never approved of his drinking and staying out all night when he was living with her, never mind with me. She is not a big force in her children's lives - don't get me wrong, she loves them & they love her - but I don't think she exercises much influence with him. I've never seen it. His family has seen our struggles and they have all stated that they want me in the divorce.

UKGirl: Both OW and WH stated that they never intended to be together. When I found the secret cell right after DDay and I told him it was over then, I started laying down the ground rules re: OW. During part of that conversation he said he would be in a relationship with her, but he wouldn't move in with her or marry her. I think this had more to do with the fact that she has a 15yo daughter living with her as well as a disabled parent. And, I think he is of the opinion that OW wouldn't be so understanding of how much time he would be spending with our kids.

I really don't think WH is of the opinion that OW is the one that got away or the love of his life or anything. I think that is what I am to him. (Again right after the secret phone incident he told me that no matter what he would never love anyone like the way he loves me and that if I ever changed my mind and wanted him back, he would drop everything, no matter where he was or who he was with.)

Anyway - whether this picture is evidence of his ongoing relationship with OW or an ongoing interest in OW on whatever level, or just politeness in a social setting, it is nonetheless unacceptable that he didn't tell me about it and that he hasn't spent the better part of this week trying to convince me it's nothing.

There are too many occasions when he has shown me he doesn't take the terms of our R seriously. Eliminating all contact with OW (at the very least, he shouldn't have attended the party knowing she would be there) and being honest and open with me being at the top of the list and quite frankly, pretty simple instructions and if he can't do that, consistently, well, it doesn't make me feel very safe.

If this was an isolated event it would be one thing, but to me it's part of a bigger picture.

If I had to guess, I'd say WH sees this process very simply. He said he was sorry. He stopped cheating. He has limited his social activities and been transparent, has gone to IC and MC and has done what I've asked as far as showing him more attention and what more could I possibly want?
I should take his word that he's with me now and let him get back to his old lifestyle unquestioned. And, I am not as happy with his efforts as he would like, and he doesn't see us getting back to the "old us" ever.


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 8:15 AM, January 9th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Allgood-
What you're saying is that he hasn't done any of the necessary 'internal work'.
He may have made a few small changes....but, has not begun to even scratch the surface to figure out why he lives his life the way he does.
And.. I know... I keep bringing this up but, drinking does seem to pop up alot in your descriptions of your husband.
What I have learned about alcoholism is that you do not need to be a fall down drunk to be an alcoholic.
Here is a good definition of alcoholism:

"Alcoholism is a primary illness or disorder characterised by some loss of control over drinking, with habituation or addiction to the drug alcohol, causing interference in any major life function, e.g. health, family, job, spiritual, friends,legal."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Notice there that it doesn't say anything about how much you drink. So having a drinking problem isn't defined by quantity - but rather loss of control, which ultimately causes problems in other areas of your life, i.e. health, work, relationships etc.


Bottom line is as soon as your drinking begins to effect any areas of your life, you know that there is a problem.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 8:31 AM, January 9th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I should take his word that he's with me now and let him get back to his old lifestyle unquestioned. And, I am not as happy with his efforts as he would like, and he doesn't see us getting back to the "old us" ever.
I think this is a case of your WH wanting the same as most WS’s. But the fact is, the trust has gone. And not only that, in your case he was still pushing the boundaries to unacceptable and unreasonable limits by the whole Christmas thing. There were a whole lot of options better than the ones he chose. It almost seems like deliberate sabotage and martyrdom. You are right – he should NOT have been there. The fragile trust was shattered.

And yet he says if you split and then wanted him back, he’d be there. So why can’t he match actions and words?

He has to accept that whatever happens in the future, he is right in that you will never have the “old us” back. But he is almost guaranteeing that there will be no “us” by this current behaviour.

If he were to view it as a problem with a desired solution – what would that be and how would he get there? He can view it as a critical path management with flexibility, fast tracking and truncating as needed. Or a Gantt Chart, taking in historical knowledge to tailor schedules accordingly. The idea I am trying to get across is that way off to the right is the finished product – ie a reconciled partnership with you. And he is starting way off to the left. Now he needs to draw the chart to get him from here to there and take into account all the variables along the way. How can he project manage it? And then when things like the Christmas debacle loom, he can look at the end point and ask “is this necessary to the project or will it jeopardise the end result?” He should be looking at everything in that way. As it is, he is doing the woe is me as if his choices and your reactions have nothing to do with him.

It doesn’t seem to be that he even wants to actively avoid OW. Do you think he might want you to throw him out or separate so that if you want him back it will prove your love to him and his love to you? And if you did separate, would you want him back or would you just be done?


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3327 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 8:33 AM, January 9th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Laura-
When you look at your list the one area that he seems to be deficient is in reaching out to a 3rd party for help.
For me that was the main thing that made a difference...both for him and myself.

You say that there are no reputable MCs and ICs in your area.
Maybe then, a weekend retreat would be the best alternative.

Here is a marriage retreat in Australia-

http://www.bettermarriages.org.au/

and here is another weekend program in Australia . This one is in February!
It is based on the Imago therapy approach.

http://www.harvillehendrix.com/docs/Australia_ad.pdf


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 8:40 AM, January 9th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Laura- another link to Imago trained therapists in Australia:

http://gettingtheloveyouwant.com/about-us/australia


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 9:25 AM, January 9th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

UKGirl:
And yet he says if you split and then wanted him back, he’d be there. So why can’t he match actions and words?

Well, that was said very, very early in the R process, like 30 days after DDay. I don't know that is what he is saying now.

As it is, he is doing the woe is me as if his choices and your reactions have nothing to do with him.

Agreed.

Do you think he might want you to throw him out or separate so that if you want him back it will prove your love to him and his love to you?

No. Again, with the secret phone incident 30 days after DDay, I wasn't throwing him out, but he said he almost wants to move out so I would miss him and want him back.

On 2 other occasions when I caught him lying about his whereabouts, he abruptly stated that he was going to stay with a friend until he could build something in the basement.

No mention of any of that stuff now and earlier this week I mentioned that we should refinance, etc. in prep for his moving out this summer and he looked at me like I had 3 heads - apparently it wasn't firm in his head that he was moving out, rather he'd like to try to live under the same roof for the kids/finances for as long as that is feasible.

And, he has seen my reaction this week. It speaks volumes about how much I love him.

And if you did separate, would you want him back or would you just be done?

At the moment, my feelings are that we have such a strong bond (for me at least) and long history, young kids, etc. that if he ever presented as someone like NJGal's husband, I would take him back under any circumstances, whether we were separated, whether I was dating, etc.

NJGal: I understand your point. In fact, at our last mc session, when he was trying to explain how he told me at 1am he was leaving soon and didnt show up til 4:30am, he said something like "I don't want to say I have a problem with drinking, but..." and went on to describe that whatever his intentions are, once he's in a social setting involving alcohol, all bets are off - he will be the last one to leave.

This morning, when I woke him up, he rolled over and put his arm around me. I guess he misses me, or maybe he's just missing the sex, who knows?

ETA: It just occurred to me that I'm sitting here saying how much I love him, etc. but prior to the drama of this week, I recall that I was feeling actually pretty numb, not really feeling in love with him at all. Same thing right before DDay, I definitely didn't have those "in love" feelings. I mean I loved him, but he was pissing me off on a regular basis, I remember feeling quite shocked at the intensity of my feelings for him upon discovering his A. It seems that it is only when I'm about to lose him when the strongest feelings are evoked. Which doesn't sound very good. But, I have to say, that if he was doing everything he should've been doing all along, no TT and none of this other dumbass shit, I would've been able to move past the A in a bigger way.

[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 9:29 AM, January 9th (Sunday)]


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 12:10 PM, January 9th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Allgood-
Of course you love him. Why else would you have stayed for even one minute after d-day?
What happens is that his actions continue to make him very unloveable.
He makes himself hard to love.

Does he do this on purpose? does he not feel worthy of true love? is it alcohol? is it low self esteem? is it immaturity? selfishness? narcissism?

the problem is that you can't fix him...
that's why he desperately needs IC and/or AA. He needs to take a long hard look at himself.
But, as you know..we as loving spouses cannot force them to do anything.
I have found that alot of the ALANON literature and also articles on co-dependency by Melody Beattie etc. can be helpful for BS.
Even if there is no alcohol involved in the WS behaviors, many of their character traits are similar to addictive personalities.

[This message edited by njgal480 at 4:41 PM, January 9th (Sunday)]


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 2:14 PM, January 9th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Update:

I texted OW this am, reminded her that she promised me she would stay away from my H, yet they were at the party together & asked what her intentions were.

She just responded that they were not together, that as soon as she sat down at the table (which she failed to explain y she would have done that), he got up and left. She says she realizes that I have no reason to believe her, but asked me to please believe her and not listen to rumors and she's sorry again and she will answer any questions I might have honestly.

So - either they are together or at least in communication on some level, and this is an orchestrated response or the truth.

Thoughts on how to proceed? I mean, he's still not fighting for the marriage...


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
Laura28
♀ Member
Member # 28997
Default  Posted: 3:41 PM, January 9th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi AGNG

Have you actually come right out and asked him why he isn't fighting for the marriage?

I have actually done this with my H. I forget the exact words but it was something like:

"If you really want to stay with me then you are going to have to fight for our M. You didn't have the courage to be honest with me and you sneaked around and lied and cheated for all those years because you say you were unhappy and lonely. Well it's about time you grew up. You want me then prove it! Show me you are worth keeping. Or would you rather just be a coward and sneak off again? I won't put up with it! You need to choose ME. I will do all I can to make our M work but I'm not prepared to accept you being cranky all the time and I'm not prepared to share you - unlike your whores- for me it's all or nothing! It's about time you made a real effort. If you aren't prepared to try or if you want to fuck some OW then piss off and don't waste any more of my life!"

There were probably a few more swear words in there but I didn't think I needed to include them this time

He responded by saying he did want to save the M, would never go near an OW and would do all he could to prove this to me. I think me saying this did actually help him to see clearly that I wasn't prepared to accept him on his terms but that I was serious about trying myself.

Anyway, might be worth a try!!

Love

Laura


Married 30yrs Me BW 57Yrs Him FWH 59yrs
OWzero 1988 EA?/PA? Gaslighted.
Dday May 28 2010.
OW1 1994(6mths PA, EA til dday).
OW2 2002(8yrs PA).
OW3 2009(1Yr PA).
Others???? Status: Not Divorcing..but.."You can't unfuck the goat"

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