Laura - I am glad things are going ok for you. I read your posts and often think we are in similar phases. You communicate the feelings so well.
NJ - your posts are always so thoughtful and helpful.
I am trying to read all posts and catch up on the stories but it will take me some time.
I am entering the "rage phase" it seems. Or I vacillate between numbness and outrage. Nice girls (or old girls like me) should never outwardly dislplay anger or emotions doncha know And of course, even after trying and trying to buck up - my heart is broken. I guess being just six months out this is normal but I would certainly welcome any advice on managing the "rage stage".
You are so smart and as tryn said, a beautiful young woman. If I was to bet on someone getting through all this I would bet on you. You also have such a great support system with everybody here at SI to help when you need it.
One thing that you can do to help with the anger is to post here about it. It seems to help to come here and bitch about stuff. Everybody here is a good listener. All you are going through is normal. Everybody here went through the same stuff. Keep posting your thoughts please.
You say you hate stupid. You don't like it when someone is a little slow? This reminded me of another old phrase. "He can barely think fast enough to keep from shitting in his pants." I'm not sure if this applies to anyone you know but I thought I would post it anyway.
I would have thought that as much as you dislike those fucking ducks, you would have been glad to bump off a few of them.
Hugs to the tribe.
Iwant.. I don’t think Mr. Allgood is going to “get it.”
not believing in this reconciliation from the getgo....
I had the courage to leave once too. When I left, I was 100% leaving. When my W found out I had my first date, her sense of “loss” kicked in… Her words and actions were something I had never ever seen before throughout our entire relationship. It showed me something. NJgal left too. Her H really knew loss... In the back of your mind, you can always have some hope but maybe your H just doesn't want to be married to you.
Allgood, Let me tell you what a person that wants to R does… I have read time and time on SI about folks that have R’d. As I look back and reflect today, she wanted to R. She showed me by doing several things. Maybe others can add to the list…
- True Remorse. They cry and take full responsibility for their actions.
- They protect you and make you feel safe. They even quit jobs to prove it. They move to make you feel safe.
- They seek out within themselves things they need to change.. They go to MC on their own...AA.. They are not afraid and go to Retrouvaille. They will read books about relationships and love.
- They change and start loving you in a much different way.
- They are VERY transparent.
- They are willing to tell feelings; sometime those honest feeling even hurt the betrayed.
It was all those things above that made it possible for me to choose to forgive.
Allgood, your H did not quit his job for you. Your H has not made you feel safe. He is defensive and you fear real change with Retrou or MC. I hate to point these things out. These were things he needed to do.
Allgood, I am just pointing out facts. I am not trying to talk you out of you marriage and family. Do not be afraid to try to R one more time. Is there anything wrong with trying one more time? Not just no, but HELL NO. If you decide to try again, you must change and he must change to do things for each other that will make for a healthy marriage. You cannot have fear to learn a new way to communicate. You guys need outside help.
But if I was you. based on your fear of Retrou.. what he does.. you do not feeling good about your relationship... I would separate. Stand firm.
[This message edited by trynhard at 9:52 AM, January 5th (Wednesday)]
Ok -- instead I'll try to be productive.
So, I've mentioned before that I have this book that helps WS's figure out how to get out of an A the right way for them -- end the A, leave the BS -- or even do both.
I have no idea, but I guess part of the appeal for me is that it goes into depth about evaulating a relationship.
And the one thing that pops out to me is the question: "What is closest to your heart?"
She says, it can be ANYTHING. Your dog. An activity. A person.
She points out that if you keep in mind what is closest to your heart -- and how the action you take now will play out in 5 years -- what a realistic expectation of what that will look like -- and choose the action that will give you the best and greatest approximation of giving you what it closest to your heart then that is the path that will lead you to the most happiness that is available for you.
When I pondered this at first, when I was pregnant, I could not for the life of me figure out what was closest to my heart.
Over time, I realized the reason for this: Baby Paddy is what is closest to my heart. People want to pooh-pooh her disability, but it's real. It's congential. The therapy will mask it some but it will remain unchanged. There is no way to know whether she will walk, etc. Properly caring for her is my #1 thing. And WH is 100% accepting and caring about her and fully committed to doing anything and everything to care for her properly too, no matter what the expense. Therefore, the thing that gives me the most resources to care for her is the best option for me and that's R.
So, consider that and it might clarify for you if you want to give R another shot. And if you DO, then you need to get in his face and push HARD, constantly. Until you either have R or until HE leaves. Be relentless.
She says: once you know what's closest to your heart, you have to make sure you get it, no matter what. -- this means you will have to let go of some things that are important to you. but in the long run they won't matter because you'll have what's MOST important to you.
So, hopefully I'm being productive. But I still vote for socking him.
Nell -- Miracle is right about re-claiming the day. It will also make you feel triumphant. Neither of the Ddays felt like days I had to reclaim to me: it was St. Patrick's Day. WH and OW went out together on St. Patrick's Day every year. I always knew about this because they were "friends" and that had always been their tradition. (20 yr. LTA...) anyway, Baby Paddy was born this past St. Patrick's Day and NOT by accident. Though I didn't choose it -- I was sort of railroaded. Both my psychiatrist and my midwife knew the story, that St. Patrick's Day was THE day and Paddy's due date was 12 days later and we were both having issues, so they decided she should come early and they just insisted that the 17th was the only day the hospital had available for a planned induction... still, a dramatic way to reclaim the day.
Stand firm, love.
I just sent WH an e-mail stating that I have some anxiety about Jan. 11 and it would mean a lot to me if he would take that day off and plan something really special with me to show me that he cherishes me and that I am important and special to him. Kept it that short, truly.
I want to spend the day being with someone who loves me. If WH refuses, then I will buy a plane ticket and spend the time with by BFF.
We shall see.
I say she should just punch him in the face!
At our last mc session, I said (in response to WH saying something incredibly stupid) that at some point I should just be allowed to hit him in the head - what damage (emotionally & physically) could it really do.
Anyway - Tryn: I am not afraid of a real relationship. I am not afraid of Retro. I am keenly aware of who my WH is. And, he has not shown himself to be someone who would get something out of Retro. There is no point in going to Retro so that I can put 110% effort into reconciling with someone who's apparent interest in reconciling is below 50%.
I am standing firm. Miracle is correct - had he just come to me, even as late as telling me after he saw the photo- look, I'm a jack ass, we talked about this and that, but I haven't been with her, don't want to be with her and will do anything to prove that to you, other options would be available.
For me to repeat that NC really is mandatory and I need x,y and z is just stupid. It's been said. There's no reason to expect different results this time.
After composing myself after looking at the photo (which someone asked if OW had posted - and no- it was primarily a photo of 3 coworkers and it was posted by a coworker that I don't believe is even friends with OW. I had to scour the background, crop it and enlarge it just to find OW and WH in it.)I sent my H this text, which I also believes states it all:
"U have given me no choice. At best, u misrepresented what happened that night as far as contact goes and you are not being candid with me now. Of course, it could be a lot more than that too. I have to put my feelings for you aside because they are not being returned and I do not feel safe with you anymore. Having said that, you should know that I still love you. I do not hate you..." (Text went on to talk about how we will keep it from the kids, etc.)
I also told him that I would love for him to pull his head out of his ass and if he found that I am really what he wants, I would always listen.
Anyway. While I feel a deep loss, I also feel a great weight is off my shoulders.
And in response to your statement that there is no way to know whether Baby Paddy will walk, etc. - I had no idea. I thought her prognosis was really good - I must've missed a few things. But, my thoughts are with you.
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 12:12 PM, January 5th (Wednesday)]
FWH has been home and today has been the first out of the office at home, so I thought I’d try to catch up, but if I read every page since I was last reading…………….
Allgood, honey, I am just so sorry. It would seem that your H doesn’t get it that when the trust is gone – the trust is gone. I had one revelation after another, each one not seeming to be enough to call it a day, but each one, nevertheless, was knocking down the marriage I was trying to rebuild. It was all to do with TT, minimising, omitting and downright lying. I could quite imagine having the same situation as you with H doing his off hand and casual response of “it was just a moment caught in time” or the “Oh God, not this again – I sat at the table, she came over, I got up – that was it!”
I would give the same advice as a few others here. Do not act rashly or while your emotions are high. Go to your MC appt and get all your questions and counter questions ready. Anticipate, but be prepared to listen. Tell him what your guts are telling you – and these days you believe your guts more readily than his words. Ask him what his wishes are. And if they are to stay with you, what he intends to do to make sure you feel safe and secure in your relationship. I don’t think there is any more that you can say about the need for his behaviour and lack of communication to change. He is standing by while his marriage falls.
In the April after Dday, I confronted H over the gut wrenching poetry I found. I told him he should leave and fuck off with MOW as it was clear he was totally in love with her. But. I wanted him to wait until DS21 had done his finals, DS3 had finished at college and we had the summer holidays to sort out them and DS4 (school) and tell them and DS1 at a sit down family conference to begin dismantling our marriage, family and home. He couldn’t believe I was telling him it was over. “it meant nothing”, he said. yeh, right. “I didn’t love her” Really??? He tried to tell me he was putting into words feelings he was uncomfortable with, and that I was putting my own interpretation – which was soooo wrong. When he realised he wasn’t going to change my mind, he just said “that was then, this is now” – one of the reasons I hate that phrase when it’s used here on SI. It became abundantly clear he believes in living in the now. And at some point “now” becomes “then” which means we could all justify the cliche when we want to change course. But the big difference for me is that there is no need for FWH to see or bump into MOW ever again. On the other hand, he does travel an awful lot and so if he chose to go there again……. Would I know? I don’t know – he’s such a good liar, I really think he could keep it under wraps if he wanted to.
Draw up your plans and lay out your requirements and boundaries. Have a couple of MC sessions and be as objective as you can. Step out of the frame a little and let the emotions settle. ((((((((Allgood))))))))
The discussion on love languages, WS’s love for the AP, WS’s love for the BS, pre-A love, post-A love, etc, has made interesting reading (even if I am skimming!). Put me down in the FNF camp post dday. FWH most definitely loved MOW. In fact he held a piece of her in his heart for 25yrs before meeting her again and having it explode like a glorious firework. He had a certain affection for me, but nothing like the passion he had for MOW. There was nothing he didn’t share with her. I just hope he shared the herpes too………….. >>evil <<
I will be face to face with her molesting uncle and my BIL.
Honest, I’m glad you have managed to keep up the distance. When does Mr Dishonest leave? It’s clear he is never going to change and never going to give up his lifestyle. I reckon he thinks things are trundling along okay and will eventually settle down. As for his “WE don’t dress like that” Wear what makes you feel good!!!
m3, Plain of Lethal Flatness?
That’s me for now. Trying to stumble out onto the track of 2011 and get going.
Even though you give him the message this last time, don't wait for his reply. Keep up with your plans. Disengage emotionally. Let go emotionally. It's hard as hell, I know. I'm still trying.
Laura, I'm so sorry for the ducklings. Didn't know they could drown like that. Never thought about it.
M3: Baby Paddy is in our prayers. I have a gut feeling that she will be strong like you. What a day, St. Patrick's day for you. But you did reclaim it!
UKgirl, I love your post and the way you express yourself. I agree with your advice for Allgood.
Miracle, thank you for your response. Sometimes something little or what may seem insignificant can have more symbolic meaning, and we know it. It is just a symptom of a bigger problem, and that's why it bothers us so much. Another trigger.
Tryn, you are right...lol, lots of money could help.
Ats, I hope and pray everything is going allright. Check in when you can.
Hugs to everyone.
Detaching hurts and is sad for me. It's like saying goodbye. It's like when you are moving away from a home you lived in so long. As I am detaching, it is becoming clearer and clearer to me that WH has detached so long ago and I never fully realized it. I don't even know what our relationship was to him. A mixture of friend/lovers/spouse/acquaintance, etc that he spent time with....someone he visited.... but not committed to fully, not a priority, not a full marital relationship with the full emotional sharing. Very superficial.
This may be stupid, but if I knew for sure that this superficial relationship is the same with OW, it would make me feel better KWIM? It just hurts to think that WH is more committed to OW and OC's and they are more of a priority. It doesn't change anything, but it just feels less hurtful.
Just got this response from WH (r.e. him taking the day off and plan something special for us to do together. I ended the e-mail with "Will you do that for me?")
Yes. I can't take two days off, so I'll see about taking Tuesday off instead of Friday.
XO - Mr. Nell
As for me - since so many of you were clammering to give Mr Allgood another shot, I did call him and try to explain my position and when that came out as a garbled mess, I followed up with a text basically telling him that it's not too late for him to fight for our marriage, but making it clear that that photo of them has shook me to my very core & makes me think the last 16 months we have been trying to work this out is a lie. I told him if he chooses to fight for our M, he will see his efforts are not futile, but I can't keep putting myself in harm's way.
He responded that he doesn't know what to say. He doesn't want to lose me, but thinks that's what's going to happen anyway and that I would be better off without him.
I responded that he needs to think about why he thinks it wont work and why he thinks I'm better off without him. Told him if he can't or wont, for whatever reason, do what's necessary to fix this, than he's right, it's over. If he thinks I'm not capable of getting past this, he's wrong. And, if he just doesn't know what to do, he needs to learn.
Either way...good job, Mr. Nell for getting on the stick and taking the day off!
How about a romantic B&B overnight? get a sitter for the kids.....?
Allgood- sending you long distance hugs!
He was busted..plain and simple. You asked him not to go to the party because you did not feel comfortable with him being there with OW. He made up a cockamamie story about spouses of employees not being welcome there! that's a lot of BS...you could have gone and no one would have batted an eyelash!
He didn't want to there...in case the OW was there.
But, he did not want to give up his immature idea of fun and he went to the party knowing that you would be sad, anxious, and disappointed.
He put his own selfish needs before your needs.
And then... he lied... you asked about OW and he said she was clear across the room...and he realizes now that you could go next year...blah...blah...blah....
busted! a pic on Facebook shows them sitting next to each other! Not...way across the room....
and..what did happen during those hours that he cannot account for? after the official party ended? did he rush home to his anxious wife? No...he says he went to another bar....and then got very drunk and had to go somewhere to sleep it off and then he crawled home at 4:30AM??????
this is his story? and you have pics of him sitting next to the OW?
I would love to be the fly on the wall at your MC session. I would love to hear your husband's explanation for all of this.
For reconciliation after a LTA you need and extremely remorseful WS that is willing to finally spill the beans, tell the whole sordid story, and open himself or herself up to extreme scrutiny- total transparency-cell phones, emails, etc.
No more secrets. No more Facebook. No more going out after work with 'friends'.
No more out of town conferences etc.
I know one BS who never used to travel with her husband for work events...well, now...post d-day she is his shadow. He takes her everywhere that he goes for work.
I know another guy that got a transfer from his job in NJ and moved the family to Fla.Just to appease his wife and get away from the OW.
He has to hit bottom.
That hasn't happened yet.
He still thinks that he can have his cake and eat it too.
He can still have his 'fun'.
He may have stopped sleeping with the OW but he still seems to have that 'stinking thinking' that they talk about in AA.
A dry drunk is someone who may have stopped drinking but is still in the same toxic thinking.
A truly recovered alcoholic is someone that has stopped drinking and has changed their way of looking at the world.
IMHO Mr. Algood has not hit his personal bottom yet.
Two years before d-day I asked my husband for a divorce.As the say in the Retrouvaille material-our marriage had entered the 'misery' phase. His behavior and attitude had become intolerable for me...nothing abusive...just the detachment, depression, drinking, nasty attitude etc.
My husband cried and said he did not want a divorce...and he made some half hearted attempts at change but.... he did not hit bottom.
He continued drinking...and he continued the LTA...
It wasn't until after d-day...when everyhthing was exposed, when he saw the devastation, when I kicked him out of the house,that was his bottom.
Nell: I'm so happy that your WH has stepped up to the plate!!
From FB (there are some good things there)
On this day, God wants you to know
... that it's time you let go. Yes, of course, you want to control so everything happens in just the way you want it. But at the end of the day, we control nothing, it's all in God's hands, has always been, and will always be. So, do what you can, and then let go,... and let God handle the rest.
agng, you are wise, and getting good advice. I have heard people refer to a dry drunk who is not drinking, but still has the issues.I believe Mr. allgood may be a dry ws, maybe not meeting or in regular contact, but still thinking like a ws and with the same issues.
honesttoafault, Mr. dh has not been getting attention from you, so he is pushing to get a response. even negative attention is attention.
I cannot reply more now. I am on my phone and it has been hectic few days. FWW and I have been there for each other. Having me here has given her new insights. It is nice to be able to be her husband.
FWW and I have been there for each other. Having me here has given her new insights. It is nice to be able to be her husband.