I checked in while waiting for some laundry to finish in the wash and saw your post.
I believe that you want to feel that Mr. allgood puts you and your M ahead of other his buddies and priorities in his life. You cannot give an adequate list to describe all of the changing and specific individual needs. At some point, he has to figure this out.
I do think it is fair for you to say that you want to be able to tell him how you feel (good or bad) without him getting defensive or dismissive. You want the same from him, and want to not be defensive or dismissive to his feelings. If getting there takes MC, OK. You want to feel safe that the A is over. He knows in his mind, but you are guessing based on what you see through a cloudy window. You want NC with OW, ask him how he can demonstrate this. Ask him how, in retrospect he could have handled the x-mas party differently to ensure you were a priority and feel safe. Use the party as a learning example of what not to do. Tell him that to feel safe you need to know that he knows why he had an A, broke NC, and what steps he is taking to ensure this does not happen again.
There, that should burn your hour.
Thanks so much for your thoughts on trust, obsessing over OW and forgiveness.
I believe you are in misery because you can tell us how you really feel. It is healthy to show hurt and it is unhealthy to pretend nothing is wrong.
I think this is why I am so exhausted all the time. I don't want to constantly expose my H to my misery - it would only bring him down. So my SI friends get it!!! Thanks for being such wonderful shoulders to lean on!
I also think your OW could be happy now. Can you imagine being a cheater? Imagine what she must feel like to have been committing a sin, the knowing of the evilness.. and now free from all that.
I have to say I have not thought of this at all. Whenever I think of her I always imagine her plotting to suck my H back in. I know she did try after dday. He told me that she came to him and told him she would "forgive" him for cheating on her with OW2. (She kept forgetting he also had a WIFE!!!) Perhaps you are right though. I hope so. I just want her out of our lives.
OW1 (16yrs ago) has no remorse at all. She told me herself!! I don't think about her much even though the PA turned into an EA for more than half our marriage - 16yrs(and all of her 2nd marriage - 10yrs). I don't see her as any threat - she's very happy with her current H -and suppose I just despise her.
OW2 is very remorseful. I pity her. She left her H for mine and has been separated for 6yrs (with my H for 8 yrs). She often suggested to my H that she would like to be dead. She has no friends and hates her job at the hospital. She is a very sad disfunctional woman. She is actually very intelligent, attractive and has travelled widely. Now she is a jibbering mess doped up on ADs and drunk most nights. I guess the karma bus has really hit her!!!
Now here's something interesting. My H is working outside and after typing above I started to wonder if she ever threatened to kill herself if my H didn't leave me, or visit more or whatever. I just went out and asked him. He told me that she had never done that but he was afraid she was going to kill herself - and this is why he sometimes rang her 4 or 5 times in one day even after he started with OW3. He then said she was suicidal after I found out. HEEELLLOOOO???? I asked "How do you know if you weren't talking to her?" he told me he had spoken to her once or twice and that a few weeks after dday she had offered to give him her mobile so he could keep in touch without my knowing. I bit my tongue and did not ask "Why are you only telling me this now???" That would discourage him from telling me things!!!A little more TT. Sigh!!!! Well at least he told me.
She often used to phone me to chat (she looked after me when I had the heart attack and said she really liked me - thought in other circumstances we could have been friends). I used to let her talk to pump her for info but don't any more. I often wondered what would happen if I turned nasty and tore into her. I wondered if this might even be enough to push her over the edge. Resisted the temptation - wouldn't want that on my conscience.
So, ONE unremorseful bitch, and ONE suicide case and ONE predator. Interesting mix. I really doubt having thought about it that any of them have a conscience!!!
he holds back information from me that he thinks will be hurtful or inconsequential). He is not an open book. He does not show me all of himself.
I'm starting to think my h never has. So much for "soulmates". I think I'm starting to realise that I never had a real marriage. I don't know if you remember me talking about OWzero. She was on the scene 22 years ago. I'm not even sure I gave you the details. They are too painful. He explainded her away and I bought it. To this day he insists they were "just friends". Anyway there may have been lots of OWs that I don't know about through our 28 yrs marriage (I actually had suspicions when we were engaged!) So does it matter now? I don't know. Probably not. What ats and tryn keep saying about the people our Ss are now as being most important is what sustains me. I suppose I'm still trying to work out just who that is. I was hoodwinked for so long I really don't know what was true and what was smoke and mirrors.
There were several very meaningful "I love you"s given to me
Sounds like he really did try Nell. So happy for you
Same old story - I told him to stop saying he wants R, but....
Stick to your guns honey. There can be no buts!!!!
i truly have no regrets for the choices i have made.
I need to get to this point. I want our marriage to work but am so often overwhelmed by the thoughts of "what if..." as in we had not married. Would I have had a REAL partner? Or maybe I would have had a series of WSs!!! I keep trying.
Still trying to absorb all you wrote. Thanks
8 new bables hatched this morning. I promise no more pics after this one I took it and wanted to show it to you all because it shows all stages - little caterpillar, big caterpillar, new chrysalis, old chrysalis (ready to hatch), empty chrysalis shells, newly hatched butterflies hanging. Most of today's crop have flown away now. I love them!!! I can now look out in my yard and wonder if the ones I see are some of my babies.
Love to all
[This message edited by Laura28 at 9:26 PM, January 13th (Thursday)]
How about "I will kill myself?" That one was used to great effect.
Because she has identified and talked about the things that led her to wanting and participating in an A, it is easier for me to see that she has changed and those things are in the past. Because she has been NC since dday, I feel safe and do not need to verify. Because she does not get defensive (sad maybe, never defensive) when I talk about the A, I feel much less need to talk about them. It breaks my heart what she did, but there is no sense in berating FWW for that, she is no longer that person.
I have a problem with the way I see my H now. The odd thing is, when he was in the affair, he was still had all the ďmanlyĒ attributes I found attractive and made me feel safe. He was confident, purposeful, focused, in control, he had a certain edge (which probably came from trying to keep everything under control), he was often happy (as well as being angry for no reason), he bought me nice presents, took me for special dinners, worked hard and was driven at work. He won everything at golf (when he was actually playing golf.....) He walked upright and with self assurance (arrogance?). He could take on the world while protecting me from it. But there was this other side to him. He was distant much of the time. He would pick fights over nothing. Sex was often just sex. He seems to have aged a lot and (dare I say it? - whisper) turning into his fatherÖÖ.. and I donít like it.
Ats, I realised after dday that I was holding the emotional reins in the relationship, so his lack of empathy shouldnít come as a surprise. He usually says the right things, but only in response. He doesnít do or offer anything himself and thatís why Iíve kind of given up. I really believe he has a problem with the women in his life. MOW and I decided who he should be with. Not him. Heís just not pro-active and I donít know why that is. Which is one reason he should have IC. But he wonít.
So, I should not give specifics, or tasks to do. Should just explain how I feel and what I need?
Iíve just seen the time and Iím sooo behind on my day already. I'm a bit introverted today and just realised this post is not offering much. I'll get some mo-jo from the gym.
[This message edited by UKgirl at 4:56 AM, January 13th (Thursday)]
First,the big question: Does he want to save the marriage?
Yes or No?
Then, If his answer is a DEFINITIVE yes the next question should be what is he planning on doing to save the marriage and repair the damage done by his affair and other behaviors.
Then....after listening to his ideas....
You can add some of the things that are on your list.
I would keep that list simple and very direct.
My list would include IC, stopping drinking (preferably with AA),stopping all contact with toxic friends (co-workers and outside of work),
spending more time home and with his children and wife, and finally MC.
Oh yeah, I forgot...total transparency-ex. phone bills, email passwords, etc. etc.
And..if his answer is No....
that he's not prepared to do any of these things or doesn't want to work at saving the marriage...
then my advice would be to separate ASAP.
Waiting till summer sounds nice but, trust me...the next few months living together will be hell.
As a teacher... I predict that your kids will be OK if he quietly moves out... tell them its work related or something like that at first...
just in case both of you have a change of heart later.
A calm, peaceful, organized household...with an intact routine is what the kids need and want.
Before I read your comments this morning, my approach was going to be to begin with the photo, because NC is a must and if that can't be accomplished, for whatever reason (he still has feelings, still thinks he can be friends with her, doesn't agree that light chit chat is inappropriate, etc) there's no sense in discussing anything else. I want him to be candid about that night with me.
Then, the next topic would've been that he has to be completely honest - example - how he wasn't honest about this - how he is still filtering things.
Then, the final point was going to be how he has to be more proactive about the reconciliation.
Got to go.
Thanks again for your responses, sorry I can't be of help to anyone else lately, but you are all in my thoughts.
And just to chime in on the OW talk, I've spoken to her once and texted her once. On both occasions she has taken responsibilty, apologized and has not uttered a bad word about my H. WHether she was sincere or not is a different question.
Alright. Peace all.
allgood: there really is nothing for him to prepare for this discussion....he needs to show up and speak from his heart...and i'm thinking that when it comes to speaking from his heart...he doesn't know how....emotionally i don't believe he has a clue.......
ok...gotta go i will be back later...laura...we need to touch more on the what if's thing....and btw love that picture...and i love that it shows all the stages in one shot...and so many pretty butterflies too...
....he needs to show up and speak from his heart...and i'm thinking that when it comes to speaking from his heart...he doesn't know how....emotionally i don't believe he has a clue
That is exactly why I asked him if he was prepared. I know he is so completely out of touch with his feelings, doesn't really seem to be dealing with reality as far as what it means for us to split, plus a host of other stuff.
I know he is so completely out of touch with his feelings...
If his answer to the question "Do you want this marriage to work and survive?" is yes, then a primary first step is for him to attend IC to learn to identify and communicate his feelings. He needs to do this before MC can work. The two of you cannot discuss how you feel and negotiate a safe and nurturing marriage if he is unable to articulate his feelings. If shame, fear, and anxiety all come out as anger (or withdraw), there is no good way for the two of you to work through these things.
On an older topic,
FWW and I talked last night about the time during her A's. She told me again how during the A's she would become disgusted with herself and vow to rededicate herself to the M. Just before dday she had again reached this point. She would try to be a good wife, try to go NC with the OM, but it never worked. She was never able to break it off with OM#1, until OM#2 appeared. No matter how hard she tried to be a better wife, until she addressed her miss-perceptions, poor coping mechanisms, and fear of intimacy, it would never work. This is why I say the WS has to change in a fundamental way.
Thanks about the dimples. :) Left over remnants of my pregnancy-induced beachball head, LOL.
I asked H last night if he was preparing for our talk at all and he said no.
Allgood. This is his fight to fight now, not yours.
[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 2:12 PM, January 13th (Thursday)]
It occurred to me that your WH is probably acting like a kid getting sent to the principal's office.
I've thought about your sitch, and realized that I truly feel that it should be just simple, and it did work with my WH to have him open up a bit:
" I feel we do love each other. I don't want to hurt you, and I really believe you don't want to hurt me."
Give him a chance to respond.
Tell him: "I love you and I really feel if we both work at it, we can R. Our old marriage is dead. We can build a new relationship. It will be hard work, but worth it."
Say: "I need to know, do you want to R or not? Yes or no? I will not be mad at whatever your answer is, just please tell me."
Allgood, this is a very important discussion. I wouldn't come armed with lists or anything at this particular time. Your WH needs to feel safe saying what he wants and not as a reaction to what he may perceive as an argument.
To tell the truth, if WH says yes, just tell him it will be hard work, but do not discuss it anymore at this point. Tell him you'll talk about what plans you and he will make tomorrow.
Just some thoughts, Allgood.
Laura, WOW!! Thank you so very much for sharing that beautiful photo!! You should write a book, or a how to book or a blog about this.
I LOVE this photo showing all the stages at once. I've never seen such a fantastic example of all the stages at once, it is so beautiful.
Now, UKgirl, you need to write a poem about this!
How appropriate... the caterpillars going through the metamorphisis. That is what we are all doing here. We are surviving, but can change to wonderful creatures who are free from pain and enjoy the world, minute by minute.
Good luck. I'm not sure if this applies, but just remember, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease." I know you are getting tired of being that wheel but hopefully if he hears this enough he will figure out how to fix the problem.
Hugs to the tribe.
I know you will never forget but do you think you have forgiven?
I really cant thank you all enough because I've been really anxious about this all day.
I am going to re-read everyone's posts before approaching WH. (I had cut & pasted everyone's comments from yesterday to help me create an outline, so I will have to update that now.) But, here is the main thrust of what I believe everyone is saying "Actions speak louder than words" as applies to us both.
I am prepared to put together an agreement if this talk turns out the way I think. I really need to think about the terms as I am not really prepared to throw him out unless it is affecting my ability to move on. (As in every other way, it makes more sense for us to co-exist, with the separate bedrooms.)
But, that is really an issue for another day. Today is to determine if it's time to go or not and as much as I want to say, if you should ever pull your head out of your ass, I would always be willing to disucss reconciling, because that is how I feel (right now at least), I'm not going to say it because it just muddies things up.
Ok, I gotta go & I see I've already lost my focus, so I will this again later.
Thank you all again.
Allgood- all of my hopes and prayers are with you tonight.
ETA - Allgood - I guess I just wanted to add that if you're not ready to give your H an ultimatum or to play hardball then maybe it's best to just let him speak. You need to do this in your own time. There are risks with ultimatums and even if those of us who took a risk by filing papers or getting our WS's to move out ended up getting the desired response, I'm betting there are just as many who didn't.
You have 4 beautiful little children and we all know they are at the forefront of whatever decision you make, as they should be.
Miracle and Honest are both in less than ideal situations but they are making it work for themselves until they are in a better place to walk away. No one can help you decide what it is you are ready to do. Only you can say what is in your best interest at this time.
[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 2:40 PM, January 13th (Thursday)]
You are in my thoughts and prayers. Everything will turn out for the best, even though it's hard to feel it right now.
Today is my wedding anniversary, and I know Wh will NOT remember it.
Right now, I'm missing him, although I shouldn't. I did well with disengaging and trying to detach, but got pulled in again right before he left. Everytime he comes and goes, I have to go through an abandonment and loss and the cycle is killing me.
Well, gotta go and drive DS15 to his swim meet and then to "parent/teacher conferences. Car is dug out from snow.
The cat we had for over 12 years is missing and DS15 is heartbroken. Mom is supposed to be out of rehab and I'm considering long term care which I know she doesn't want. She wants to move in with me and have me take care of her. She thinks she can get an aide to come in to help me.....
ok, enough pity party for me.
Laura, hang in there, you are in our prayers.
M3, let us know how it's going with Baby Paddy. Her "aunts and uncles" here on LTA want to know
Today is my wedding anniversary, and I know Wh will NOT remember it.
I am so sorry honey. I know how much this hurts. I would say my H forgot about half of our 28 wedding annis and each time I was so upset. I told him but he still forgot. Now, after the As, this would be devastating for me. It would be almost a deal breaker because it would show how little our M and R meant to him. Honest, he is TELLING you. My H was telling me and I didn't listen. You need to listen honey for your own sanity.
Everytime he comes and goes, I have to go through an abandonment and loss and the cycle is killing me.
You've said it yourself. Nothing is going to change. Each time he leaves is like another dday. You know you can't go on.
he needs to show up and speak from his heart
Miracle has hit the nail on the head here.
Thanks for your response to my question about forgiveness. I think if I focus on forgiveness as a process (as you describe it) rather than an end point (which is how I have been thinking) than I will find it easier. Thanks - you really did help with your answer. However I do disagree with you on one thing
because I refuse to forget
I think you are being too hard on yourself here. I don't think any of us CAN EVER forget. It would be like telling someone to forget the death of a loved one. It is humanly impossible. But maybe we can choose to not dwell on it, or make a conscious effort not to keep analysing. I don't know. Easier said than done!!
Water is receding in most places. Some smaller centres are still suffering. Goondiwindi (a town of about 5,000) is in much danger today as are a number of smaller places.
My SIL's house was spared. Water stopped rising less than an inch below the floorboards!!!
In Brisbane the premier called on young people to volunteer to help by registering for clean up teams. Within a few hours 11,000 had signed up!!!!! This is truly extraordinary and a testament to the genuine "goodness" of humanity!
'We now face a reconstruction task of postwar proportions,' she said yesterday. 'Everyone can contribute in some way and I ask residents not affected by the flooding to think about grabbing a shovel, putting on their safety gear and lending a hand to Brisbane's flooding victims. I also urge anyone who owns a bobcat, dump truck, front-end loader, water tanker or other heavy equipment or plant to give us a hand with the clean-up.
Anyway. It's sunny today and I need to get some laundry done.
HUGS to all