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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Long Term Affair Part 22
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 1:15 PM, February 1st (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

m3,
How funny that you're talking about perceptions in the face of big unknowns. I had a conversation with another SI member the other day and wondered aloud to her if my WH married me in the first palce because he thought I was a go-along, no-trouble girl; was attractive; was comfortable (from his hometown in a city 1,000 miles away); was convenient (I was THERE and I CALLED HIM FIRST); and most importantly his twin got married so he had to get married, too.

Who knows? I married him for reasons that I have come to find out are figments of my own imagination, so really who am I to judge whether he married actual Nell or his idea of me?


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 1:23 PM, February 1st (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

...who am I to judge whether he married actual Nell or his idea of me?

Nell, I think we all really marry our perception of the other person. I think that maybe some people are more perceptive than others are. I know I am now more than then. I clearly married my perception of FWW, not the real her. Only in the last few months have I come to know the real FWW. In the same manner, she married her perception of me, her KISA.

When it became clear to both of us we were not married to who we expected, we both took it personally as our own personal failing (yes, I was a co-dependent). The difference for me is that I was willing to tell FWW what it was I needed. She was afraid to tell me what she needed for fear I would not like her.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 1:30 PM, February 1st (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh, I knew who I married. Only problem is, I got better and he got worse. We were both wild-asses. Then someone had to parent The Pharaoh...


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
Laura28
♀ Member
Member # 28997
Default  Posted: 1:42 PM, February 1st (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ats

Maybe TMI here

Her affairs robbed me of what could have been a prime of our sexual life together.

I feel exactly the same. When he was having As we only had sex once or twice a fortnight. He was also doing it with them.

I went away sometimes to visit the chidlren. I now know that when I went away he spent 2 nights with OW3 and then fucked me when I came home. That's 3 in 3 nights. After dday our HB lasted for a couple of months. We did it almost daily.

Now we are down to once a week and I often feel he's not really keen.

Makes me so sad.

He just fucked me for years while having fun with his whores and is now very lacking in interest.

It's so unfair. I have told him this. I feel so cheated. He had them and I had no one. It was rarely very good, and now he's jsut not into it!!!

HUGS to all

Laura


Married 30yrs Me BW 57Yrs Him FWH 59yrs
OWzero 1988 EA?/PA? Gaslighted.
Dday May 28 2010.
OW1 1994(6mths PA, EA til dday).
OW2 2002(8yrs PA).
OW3 2009(1Yr PA).
Others???? Status: Not Divorcing..but.."You can't unfuck the goat"

Posts: 2729 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Australia
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 2:10 PM, February 1st (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ats-
I think you should print out your comments here on LTA forum and read them to your wife in MC this week.
You don't have to say they're from SI-just that you were journaling some of your thoughts.
Let her hear out loud exactly how you feel about her actions or lack of actions.

M33- you are absolutely right about my comment..that was what I meant...
how can Strongish's marriage recover from a LTA if he is never home, does not go to MC, IC, and continues working with the same crew that he was working with during the LTA?
and you're right...Strongish will recover from the LTA as we all will..in our own time.

Allgood- I really think your husband does not believe that the marriage is over. He thinks he can go on with business as usual.
He doesn't understand that post d-day the whole marriage has changed, you have changed,your expectations have changed.
and... IMHO... that's the only way that a marriage can be saved post d-day.
Massive changes...nothing stays the same....

[This message edited by njgal480 at 5:11 PM, February 1st (Tuesday)]


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
old dipstick
♂ Member
Member # 25598
Default  Posted: 3:25 PM, February 1st (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ats.

We both know that our Ws share many traits. I can relate to your dress shopping story. Especially the part about how she now feels guilty and is worried about your feelings. Like you, the problem is now made worse because you have to deal with her guilt about all this. Things happen to me like this many times. Most often it is something I was not that worried about anyway.

Now about the sex thing. I went through some dry spells too. Maybe for different reasons than you are having now. Who really knows about these things? Like you I thought I should be getting some a little more often than what was actually happening. Lately I have been getting as much or possibly more than I need. If I figure out what caused this change, and it was caused by a good thing, you will be one of the first to know the cure!

Near blizzard conditions and my W suggested I grill a pizza. I think she was just kidding! I hope so.

Hugs to the tribe.


Her WW 60
Me BH 60
M 36 yr
D-day#1 fall of 76 OM#1 2NS
D-day#2 summer of 89 OM#2 LTA 8 yrs OM#3 Short Term A


Posts: 751 | Registered: Sep 2009
strongish
♀ Member
Member # 29259
Default  Posted: 4:26 PM, February 1st (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ats - Just so that you know it's not a gender thing...I can tell my FWH something, give him my opinion about a situation and he shoots me down, nicely, but nevertheless he doesn't pay too much attention to it. A few days later someone else can tell exactly the same thing and you would think it was a message from God! This has happened over and over in our M. I chalked it up to one of his quirks, an annoying one, but certainly not anything to get my panties in a wad about. It's a different story now. I laid into him last week because he had started reading a book recommended by a pilot friend as opposed to "Not Just Friends" which I finished reading and left for him to read 5 months ago!! Stuff that merely irritated me before makes me furious now. I guess I now realize how little FWH respects me.

Posts: 490 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Texas
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 10:09 PM, February 1st (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I can tell my FWH something, give him my opinion about a situation and he shoots me down, nicely, but nevertheless he doesn't pay too much attention to it. A few days later someone else can tell exactly the same thing and you would think it was a message from God

Strongish, do they all have the same DNA or something?? My WH did/does that all the time. It drove me insane. He would ask my my opinion and then ask 10 other people and come back and say "Y said it was a good idea" What about me!!! Geez...

M3, I was so saddened to read about your miscarriage and how your WH didn't come to be by your side. I want to throttle him!

fnf: You also had a miscarriage and your WH went to the office? Grrrrrr. I'm so sorry.

Laura, you worked so hard and for so long and sacrificed so much, and you also had a miscarriage?? You have gone through so much with WH and he still works where the OW's work. It is so very hard for you.

Nell: thank you for your good wishes. How is it going with the "evil" twin who is supposed to visit?

Dip, you'll get frostbite grilling pizzas!!! Be careful!

Miracle, I hope you are doing ok and pfm and manchild are behaving themselves. It's like you have another child to contend with.

Allgood, keep focusing on you and the kids for now. I don't know, but I feel you should try Retro also, one last try....
Anyway, I hope you are hanging in there.

I'm on a crazy rollercoaster and have tried to strap myself in. Unfortunately, this one has many flips and turns and I'm dizzy and confused... I have to find my focus again, instead of focusing on the fact that I'm not focused!! KWIM?


Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 11:14 PM, February 1st (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

honest: still praying hard for you and your sich...

strong and honest: count pfm in this elite group of ws's:

I can tell my FWH something, give him my opinion about a situation and he shoots me down, nicely, but nevertheless he doesn't pay too much attention to it. A few days later someone else can tell exactly the same thing and you would think it was a message from God

this used to drive me insane too!!! especially if the idea's came from his mother, sisters or another man....yup...total asshole he was...actually still is


ats: you seem to have these dips here and there.....they pass....

My stepdaughters are already adults. I will not lose DS18, he is gone and contemplating changing his name. There is not much other than a mortgage to hold me to my former life.


and btw don't you have another son in the 15ish range...


as i see it you have 2 issues that need to be addressed...the first being sex...which means your wife needs a complete physical that includes blood tests for hormones, and a complete work up concerning depression....you need to rule out medical reasons before you jump to conclusions....remember who she was is not who she is now....she is evolving into someone she has never been....


second issue concerns your sons and your differences with your wife on this...and this is something that needs negotiating no matter what, because this will always be there tying you to each other for your kids....

dip: have you tried a good stew or chili....they make good eats during really cold spells...


nell: i agree with ats, we all marry with this perception of who we are indeed marrying...i never believed i was marrying a cheat...none of us did...

there is this expression that perception is everything and it really is, because almost any sich can be twisted to one's perception of what it is...another example of perceptions: there is your side, his side and somewhere in the middle is the truth!!

how one perceives people and/or sichs determines the behavior that will be chosen in 'reaction' to what is perceived....


m3:

Oh, I knew who I married

you may have known who you married, but did you know who he really would turn out to be...did you really know all of what he would become....i don't think so....i am sure you believed that his "wild ass" ways would get tame when adult responsibilities like children and bills became reality.....but for him he seems to compartmentalize it all....not to mention just how lousy he was and is at both being a parent and provider....putting you in debt is not providing...


allgood: i think your husband is caught between believing that the marriage is doomed no matter what and believing he can charm his way back into your good graces....via your heart.....and because i think he believes both and is quite the adamant defeatest he is stuck in his own "do the bare minimum" reaction....not putting all effort into it...because then he will actually have to blame himself, something he really hasn't done...he so far blames circumstances as opposed to taking full ownership of what he did and full ownership of making it as right as he possibly can....so that when he is 'right' about it ending he could say, "yes i knew allgood would leave me"...not realizing that he is the one left a long time ago and has yet to come back, all of him to come back and that is all his own fears...


i need to make some hopefully happy dreams...been a long day...good nite all...


(((tribe)))


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 11:42 PM, February 1st (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She was afraid to tell me what she needed for fear I would not like her.

Wow, Ats, that struck a chord with me. Like Miracle and OMG, I forgot who else said it (I'm sorry) about how their fathers were and abandonment issues.
Just for me, I tried to be a good person, the person that was expected. If I told anyone my needs, I was told I was wrong to have them. I was selfish to want anything. Then I was "abandoned".
It happened with two husbands too, when I stood up for myself and said, "Hey, I don't like this! I want that!" I paid for it by being abandoned.

Ats, I'm not saying what your FWW is doing is an excuse, but just to point out that although it's hard not to, but it's not personal.

Nell, what you said about your WH marrying his perception of you and not you? I'm sure that a lot of his perception was what the true you was.

But, I'm coming to the conclusion that a lot of WS's don't have a clue what a true intimate relationship is. They just know how to "do" superficial. I don't know if a lot of them really knew how to love completely and deeply. I believe they did love us when they married us, and probably still do to the best of their capability......but is that best good enough? It wasn't good enough for them to have boundaries to protect the marriage.

I don't know if I'm making any sense. I started rambling.

Oh, and I know I did something right tonight that I learned from dealing with the older DS's. DS 15 just woke up and said he couldn't sleep. I told him that if anything was ever bothering him, I would be there to listen. I told him that he was getting older, so I wouldn't tell him how and what to do with dealing with problems he may be having with his friends, but I would listen and give my opinion for him to think about.

He seemed so happy and said Thank you Mom.

This doesn't mean he'll confide in me with the arguments and spats that teens have that do upset them (although he might).

But the knowledge that a parent is there to support them, that someone is in their corner is a good thing.

Ok, getting off my soapbox for now.


{{{{tribe}}}}


Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
Laura28
♀ Member
Member # 28997
Default  Posted: 2:44 AM, February 2nd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi all

Working backwards here

Honest

Thanks for sharing that moment with your son. My son has depression on top of his Marfan. We tried medication but it made him manic. He is very independent but I find it so hard not to smother him when I know he is having a tough time. He will never share his feelings. I find this so very hard and worry sick about him. I have to stop myself phoning him too often. Sometimes I call and he seems happy. When I call and he is sad he gets cranky with me as well so I get off the phone and cry. So I try not to call too often.

Anyway, I am going to try saying something like you did to my son. I have said the same sort of thing before but not in quite the same way.

You never know when some little anecdote will help others. Thank you.

the knowledge that a parent is there to support them, that someone is in their corner is a good thing

That's all I want him to know!!! You worded it so well.

A few days later someone else can tell exactly the same thing and you would think it was a message from God!

He would ask my my opinion and then ask 10 other people and come back and say "Y said it was a good idea" What about me!!! Geez.

Same here. Maybe they think we are "dumb" - our opinions are worthless because we were too dumb to catch on that they were cheating years ago!!!! Who knows. I'll never understand them.

NJgal

Strongish will recover from the LTA as we all will..in our own time

Thank you. You are always so positive.

Dip

Lately I have been getting as much or possibly more than I need. If I figure out what caused this change, and it was caused by a good thing, you will be one of the first to know the cure!

Can I be second please?

Miracle'

Thanks as always for your thoughts. Although you are often not speaking directly to me. I can see wisdom in your comments and can often apply them to my own sich.

H working tonight and has phoned several times. Told me both OW2 and OW3 working. He has to have some contact with them. But at least he is telling me.

Love to the tribe

Laura

[This message edited by Laura28 at 2:46 AM, February 2nd (Wednesday)]


Married 30yrs Me BW 57Yrs Him FWH 59yrs
OWzero 1988 EA?/PA? Gaslighted.
Dday May 28 2010.
OW1 1994(6mths PA, EA til dday).
OW2 2002(8yrs PA).
OW3 2009(1Yr PA).
Others???? Status: Not Divorcing..but.."You can't unfuck the goat"

Posts: 2729 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Australia
Laura28
♀ Member
Member # 28997
Default  Posted: 4:36 AM, February 2nd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

More prayers needed tribe

You may have read in general or heard about Cyclone Yasi (you would call it a hurricane). It is going to hit the coast of Queensland in the next 6-12 hours. It is being described as very similar to Katrina. Expecting wind speeds of more than 180 miles per hour and waves of more than 20 feet.

Laura


Married 30yrs Me BW 57Yrs Him FWH 59yrs
OWzero 1988 EA?/PA? Gaslighted.
Dday May 28 2010.
OW1 1994(6mths PA, EA til dday).
OW2 2002(8yrs PA).
OW3 2009(1Yr PA).
Others???? Status: Not Divorcing..but.."You can't unfuck the goat"

Posts: 2729 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Australia
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 6:41 AM, February 2nd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Laura, you and all the Aussies are in my prayers!!

It's hard to deal with a child that has problems. We want to do everything to help them. Keep calling him. You don't have to ask him anything, but it helps to know you are there. When xWH announced he was leaving and then left, I had a friend (God rest her soul) who called me every day, even if I couldn't talk, and often got off the phone right away. Her constant support, even though I didn't really tell her much , those phone calls were such a support!!!

Hang in there Laura. It must be hard to be sitting home knowing WH has contact with OW's. Can you meet him for lunch or something?

I hope everyone who is in the track of this crazy winter storm is doing ok. We have an ice storm warning and a 2 hour school delay, but luckily, it's turning to rain and the temps are rising.

{{{{tribe}}}


Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 7:54 AM, February 2nd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Miracle: You hit the nail on the head as far as my H goes. Tho, since our argument yesterday morning he has been laying low and I've been keeping my distance. I started working on our agreement again. And, I just keep reminding myself that the part of my H that makes me want to stay together is only a fraction of who he is. That may not be completely accurate, but there's just too much lying, that's the bottom line. The selfishness will always be there. I firmly believe that is a characteristic that cannot be changed as an adult. Maybe someone with excellent willpower can overcome the selfishness or can shift his/her attitude so that being with his/her spouse is the most important thing to them, so the selfishness is not inconsistent with a good marriage. Ok - enough rambling, seriously.

Honest: What a nice moment with your son. It's the little things that show us we've done right by our kids.

Laura: My thoughts are with you.


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 7:58 AM, February 2nd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Honest-
Your description of your discussion with your teenage son is so heartwarming.
You handled it so beautifully.
Your sons know that they can count on you for unconditional love and support.

Laura- I think that having that talk with your son is also a great idea.
It sounds like he is dealing with so much!And young men just do not like to open up about their fears, worries, sadness etc.
I used to try to wait a fe days and not discuss a touchy issue right away. I just let him know I was there and then tried to ask a few days later if he wanted to talk about it.

I am also so sorry for all of the horrible weather that parts of Australia has been hit with! One thing after another.
What a tough season this has been weatherwise....
we are having an 'ice' day today.

And Honest, I agree with your comments about the heartbreaking stories the other shared about their miscarriages.
It is so awful that your husbands were not there for you.
It could be simply selfishness and a total lack of empathy, or... it could have been that they are 'escapists'..that whenever things get hard they need to run away from it.
Both characteristics of cheaters.

It's also typical behavior for an alcoholic..if that applies in any of these cases.
My husband never did anything as overtly thoughtless with me but he actually did exhibit this behavior with his mom.

And here's the rub... I know that my husvband truly loved his mother. He cared about her. But,I remember a time when she was extremely sick... had a stroke..was in the ICU.
And he told me that he would stop by to see her after work.
Well, he stayed out drinking really late that night and the next day when I asked about his mom he admitted that he never made it to the hospital. He stopped at happy hour first and then one drink led to another.

I think that he was so devastated by her condition that he could not face it-so he escaped.
In his mind he really loved her and yet to the observer it would seem that he was exhibiting very selfish, unkind behavior.

So, when we try to analyze what our WS were thinking...and whether or not they loved us when they married us etc. I think it's really difficult because you cannot quantify something like love.

In their minds they loved us.
(In our opinion they did not exhibit loving behavior toward us).

That is why after d-day, after the shock wears off, and after we get all of the facts about the LTA... all we can do is to look at our WS and decided if the behavior that they are exhibiting right now.... is what we feel is loving,comitted, caring,kind etc.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 8:04 AM, February 2nd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

i gots only 5 minutes, need to take boys to school...but needed to address:

laura:

Although you are often not speaking directly to me.

boy was i tired...when i read this i had to go back to my last post because i could have sworn i had written something to you...but nope i missed ya....so here goes, better late then never..

He just fucked me for years while having fun with his whores and is now very lacking in interest

i do not believe he "just fucked" you....i can say that mostly because your ws has never claimed to be "in'love" with any of them....and i can say it because i was "just fucked" for most of my marriage, because pfm DID and WAS very much "in-love" with ow#1...she was there prior to me and never left.....and he did come home to me when she would stand him up, he would just fuck me, he treated me like the hole he apparantly believed i was....i did become "just a hole"....and the nite i realized that changed my sex life with him forever....

now back to you....there is no reason for you to settle on this sex life you have now either....speak up and tell him how you feel...yes it would be nice if he did the initiating but i get the sense that your ws gets so wrapped up in his obsessions he has no passion left for much else...i don't believe its personal....i also think there may also end up being a medical issue here too, he is getting older and certain conditions can arise (excuse the pun) to put a damper on things....making it hard for him to get the rise..


ok boys are ready, gots to go now, will be back later...

and sending prayers out to our aussie's....damn mother nature is sure walloping the land down under these days....



i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 8:04 AM, February 2nd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ats-
It does break my heart to read how sad and disappointed you are with your relationship with your son.
Would you consider going to family counseling with him?

Just the two of ?
without your wife there....

to work out your differences with an objective third party there as a referee?

His anger at you may just be him reaching out to you for love and attention but he does not know how to ask for it....
or..it could be that he has learned that he can treat you in a disrespectful manner and then that creates it's own vicious cycle...

you react to the disrespect with anger and sadness and both of you retreat from each other...

so...maybe counseling for you and your son?

[This message edited by njgal480 at 1:30 PM, February 2nd (Wednesday)]


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
old dipstick
♂ Member
Member # 25598
Default  Posted: 10:24 AM, February 2nd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

miracle.

I have a cast iron pot. It is great for fixing chili and stew on the grill. It gives it a touch of smokey flavor from the charcoal.

Laura.

You have dibs on being the second. I just have to figure out how to get to the answer. If I mess up and make her mad with a bunch of questions, then I could end up in the "not getting enough" category.

Honest.

I did not grill. She said she did not want me to since it was so cold. Maybe she heard about the brass monkeys. It was good what you told your son. Even if they do not take you up on the offer it is good for them to know they can talk if they want or need to.

Hugs to the tribe.


Her WW 60
Me BH 60
M 36 yr
D-day#1 fall of 76 OM#1 2NS
D-day#2 summer of 89 OM#2 LTA 8 yrs OM#3 Short Term A


Posts: 751 | Registered: Sep 2009
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 10:27 AM, February 2nd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just want to scream and have a temper tantrum for no particular reason other than the fact that I don't like my options. I don't like it. It's not what I wanted and I want to have a temper tantrum.

But, instead, I thought I'd poke my nose in here and see how everyone is doing.

WHERE ARE ALL OF YOU?!?


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 10:48 AM, February 2nd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm here. Poking around. Sifting through my thoughts. Wishing that things were different and trying to figure out what to do now. Wishing I could be selfish and just walk away, at least for a while, but knowing that's not an option because I have kids whom I love and don't want to harm. Thinking about a conversation I had with Boyo1 last night where he asked who I like the best in the whole world, and how I had to think about my answer and finally said, well, I married your dad so I probably like him the best, huh? What a weak-ass response, and even that was an overstatement of my feelings toward WH. It just makes me sad. I hate this. I'm such a phony. grr.

Bad day today.


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
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