To be manipulative, I would have to use tricks to get what I want when I don't receive them freely.
Nell, this really struck a chord with me. I loved your whole post. It shows me WH's actions all the time. <sigh>
It's so hard with WH and a twin brother. You don't have to be his friend!! Geez.
O - and Tryn - even tho I'm not going to Retro, I'm going to try to pick up better communication skills from you.
Maybe I should told Mr. Allgood, "When you don't participate in conversations with me about our future in a meaningful way it makes me FEEL like calling you a F--king asshole."
Is that right? Lol.
Ok, I feel better now.
njgal - We have been trying to do all kinds of things. I'm running out of new things though because of all this winter mess happening on the East Coast. Last summer we had a blast and it kept our minds occupied and off the A. The winter set in and I've been trying but my mind won't let me have peace. H is looking around for some snow mobiles. Maybe that will help with things to do and doesn't that come under, spend money?
I'm feeling like I can't breath today. I need a xanax!
ats - I kept a journal and if I go back and read I've said some really hurtful things about my H. I would feel really horrible if my H read that now as I don't feel as strongly about some of the things I wrote in the past. How long ago was it?
When he calls you again remind him that he chose another woman and another family over yours!
He spends the majority of his time and his energy on the OTHER family.
It appears as if you and his sons here in the US are an afterthought....
That is NOT love.
If I was ever in the room when that despicable snake of a man and he said those words to you- I would grab the nearest frying pan and clonk! him over the head with it!
Preferably it would be one of those really heavy iron fry pans!
He is completely delusional.
He is a bigamist and an absentee father.
he is an awful role model for your sons.
He is selfish, narcissistic, and totally manipulative.
Can you tell that his phone calls to you have set me off a bit here?
You do not deserve to be treated this way.
He may think that he is showing you some kind of respect through his actions ...but he is not!
He hurts you every single day.
And, I am sorry that you are enduring that level of pain.
You are way too kind and a very patient person.
I'm guessing that growing up with a BPD mom was your training ground.
Its your turn now!
Winter is almost over. (The graoundhog predicted an early spring! Yay!)....
Make this spring a new beginning for you and your boys!
sending you some long distance hugs!
(((Ats))) I am so, so sorry about the notes you found. I'm in agreement with everyone else that they are most likely her frustrations put down in writing. We all know that journaling can be cathartic, my guess is that this is what you've found. She didn't give them to you because she knows that that's not how she really feels, it's just her frustration at that moment. But it hurts....God knows, it hurts. Sending you a hug!
Hoenst - Glad to see that you could identify that your WH is manipulative. Really....he should win an award for narciccism. When he calls and starts telling you that he loves you, imagine that his voice is that of the teacher in the Charlie Brown cartoons......whah, whah, whah, whah, whah....He does NOT have your, or your son's, best interest at heart. He's only interested in himself and what makes him happy. It makes him happy to have you not making waves so he will dole out a few kind words to you to get you back in line with what he wants and that's for you to stay in the role he has decided you should fill. Hang in there. You are strong enough to do this!
Emotional morning for me. Two phones calls from women that are suffering. One is my sister. Her 1st husband left her and her 3 young kids after having an EA for years. As is common, he moved out of state, dicked around with paying child support, remarried, reversed his vasectomey so that he and wife #2 could get pregnant with twins, just lost another job, still late iwht child support for his first 3 kids....you get the picture. Through all of this my sister has held her family together. She went back to work full-time, has been there for her kids when they have cried for Daddy, borrowed money to pay the bills, begged help with child care, etc. She lost her job last fall, found another one two months later but it's turning out to be a nightmare. She just needed to vent and have someone tell her that she's going to be okay, that she's doing the right thing and that she's a good mom. We talked and she was able to get on with her day.
An hour later my BFF calls. She has had the meltdown of all meltdowns, yesterday through this morning. Due to the weather she had to put up with her WH at home for the past 4 days and he is completely clueless. They both said ugly things and while she knows she doesn't want to stay with him, she's scared of being alone. (Sound familiar?) She's beautiful and smart, and I'm confident that she will come out okay, but we all know those feelings of panic. We talked for a while and she's going to get away for a few days by herself.
Prior to my DDay, I didn't really spend many deep thoughts on how infidelity can ruin so many lives. I'm just so confused as to how someone can profess to love someone but then treat them so callously. And I do believe that a LTA is harder to recover from because you know that it wasn't just a momentary lapse in judgement. The A required premeditation and planning. So, it's more difficult to accept that our WS's have now seen the error of their ways and now they really love us! I know I'm having trouble with that. What I've found these past 7 mos. is that my FWH is weak. He doesn't have the strength of character it takes to do the right thing even when no one is looking. I did and I do. So, it will be up to me to determine whether we S/D or R. I am working to accept that I am now, and will have to be, the stronger one in our M if we are to stay together. Some days I feel strong, and others I don't.
I think you all for listening to me over and over. It helps more than you know. I look at all of you and where you are and I am able to draw on your strength and wisdom when I'm fresh out. I'm sorry that I'm not better at supporting you. Some days it's all I can do to keep my head from flying off my head the thoughts are whirling around so fast!
...I don't feel as strongly about some of the things I wrote in the past. How long ago was it?
She wrote about me being another cock and wanting a cock free world Friday night (yesterday).
I am not going to tell her I found it, thought there is a chance she will read here and find out.
I do believe that a LTA is addictive...and any of the WS that jumped from one LTA to another A or LTA -to me that's SA.
The WS is using sex like the alcoholic uses alcohol...as a way to deal with pain, anxiety, as an escape...etc.
A friend of mine sees a therapist that is extremely knowledgeable about working with couples dealing with all of this crap.
There is a group of therapists across the USA that collaborated on a book:Your Sexually Addicted Spouse by Steffens. This book also agrees with Dr. Ortman and others that infidelity is very traumatic for the BS and it describes ways to deal with the aftermath as individuals and as a couple.
Going to IC for the WS is crucial..but, it's very important that the IC knows how to deal with all of these issues-not all ICs do have enough background to deal with it all.
I've not delved into SI today cuz I'm trying to stay positive. Puttin my dancin shoes on and going out for the 1st time in a long time for some fun!
Catch up with y'all tomorrow.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 1:48 AM, February 6th (Sunday)]
She wants to build intimacy, but does very little to do it.
Fuck this shit, I should be happy she is NC
My Dialogue question…
How have we grown in our sexuality and responsiveness to each other? HDIFAT?
Dear Ms ats..
When I touch you, feel your beauty with my fingers, my lips, my tongue, my skin, you become a piece of me. I need and want to grow with you toward a life with us being totally connected in our souls through physical touch, making love, holding and feeling each other.
I feel sex as a way you give me assurance, faith, contentment, and I get some serene thoughts the next day after a wonderful evening being with you. So many men I read about, talk to, just allow lust and ejaculation rule their brain, I don’t. Sex with you is meaningful to me.
We have not grown our sexuality and responsiveness to each other these past few months. This has left an emotional hole in my head filled with stress, desire, and confusion. I want those good feelings again.. those I think you once had for me back that day we decided to get married in our hotel room that second night.
I want to grow our sexuality and responsiveness with each other. I read a book that gave me some idea I will begin to practice. I am asking you in great faith to move toward the healthy love of physical touch.
I love you with all my heart and soul….
Now ats.. You listen to her feelings… JUST LISTEN!!!!
She may tell you her clit is dead. She may even tell you the daily bringing up her past failings is killing her drive. She may tell you that big crusty toe is so disgusting, It makes her feel puking. She may say talking about the A after 2 year depresses her to the point it just kills the mood.
Then, when you know her feelings, you think about ways that can change her feelihgs..
For example, that crusty toe.. go have MAN Peticure!
It takes practice to tell your feelings. It takes training.
To describe feelings..
- Use Feeling words found on internet
- compare a past situation you both went through
- Rate it on some scale
- describe it as a color. Black is dark, Green is go, red is stop..
- describe a picture
Intimacy = sharing inner feelings.. both good and bad… You do this along with firm commitment to do all desirables.. You will achieve some peace and happiness again. This will come with any new relationship, or past relationship!
Can you now see the value of what I have learned?
Honest.. You are too sweet! TOO SWEET!!!!!! Your sweet sweet comments always bring me a smile.. You working toward independance again?
Any ways.. You fine folks have a great day..
[This message edited by trynhard at 6:32 AM, February 6th (Sunday)]
In me news: he announced this am that he's not coming home after work, going out with guys from work to a bar for the Superbowl. My calm request that he not tell me these things on such short notice fell on deaf ears. He seems to think I should've known he would go "somewhere" for the superbowl and I wouldn't have time to do the errands I want to do anyway. (FYI - we do not have the same days off, so I get very little done except in the evening when he is usually home. And, even at that point its an impossible number of things that need to be done as my 2yo doesn't let up her grip on me even when my H is around.)
Also told him that I thought this was another example of how he sits and says how he wants to be with me, but "how can I show u r my priority if you are not letting us act like a real couple" and then proceeds to choose to go out with people I have an issue with (not the people themselves - I have a problem with my H hanging out with younger single or divorced guys that are largely immature and just not good for out sitch.) and in the neighborhood where OW lives and works. He not only doesnt get that, but it becomes an argument.
O- the best part- he says "I should've just lied about where I was going." He says this in all seriousness like he should be rewarded for telling me where he was really going.
I just don't see him changing anytime soon.
And- for those that think the grass is greener, dating-wise. I went out last night. It ain't pretty.
Had a good time tho.
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 8:14 AM, February 6th (Sunday)]
But, I do think a big draw for him is the bar and the booze....
but, IMHO being surrounded by a lot of drunken, single, guys, women, etc. in a bar is not exactly an environment conducive to saving your marriage.
Not after everything that has happened in your marriage......
I used to say stuff like that to myself....and my H actually said it to me also.
In all the pre affair days...when he would go out partying with friends and co-workers while I was home with the kids and taking care of all the responsibilities at home.....
he would say stuff like.... I know I'm not doing the right thing here but...at least I'm not cheating on you! That's something I would never do!
so, that was actually something that I hung on to...that maybe I did not have a 'perfect' marriage but.. I could settle for that since the one thiing I could count on was him being faithful to me.
then he burst that little bubble too.
so, I'm not so easy to please anymore... I want it all.
I want a really, really good marriage. I don't want to settle anymore.
Strongish, I'm sorry that your sister and BFF are having problems too. It's heartbreaking. I agree with you about your feelings about a LTA. It's so hard to fathom and get our minds around it.
I just had an "aha" moment. It's not only that we were deceived and betrayed, but so many of us didn't recognize or want to recognize the red flags, that we deceived ourselves, and in a way betrayed our true selves. We sacrificed ourselves in the name of love and marriage and our WS's and there is the biggest betrayal of all. It's like Shakespeare said so long ago: "This above all - to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as night the day, Though canst not then be false to any man."
NJgal, Thank you for your post. It helps me to put things in perspective.
The saddest thing, it's not 2 OC's but 3
It's almost like when you live with an alcoholic, you start getting used to craziness that it starts to seem "normal". You get used to less and less, and as you said, you settle and are grateful for even the crumbs. I'm glad that you won't settle anymore.
Tryn: I wrote down what you wrote about emotional intimacy and ways to write dialogue. I think a lot of things there that can be adapted to talking to anyone you love.
Thanks for saying I'm so sweet, but I don't feel it.
Allgood, I'm so sorry. Your WH thinks all should go back to "normal". In his mind Super Bowl Sunday must go on as before. He still should have talked to you and not assume that you would know this is what he was going to do. He needs to grow up and realize, OK, I'm at least co-parenting with Allgood, we work together in this household (never mind intimacy and emotions) so I should discuss with her my plans!
Thank you everyone for your support. I have to look at what I have. One of the first things that is taught in a survival situation is to take stock of what you have and how you can use it. I have to keep my focus on that and not WH.
Quick update while WH and evil twin are out... yes, he got here last night. I didn't see him until this morning. WH invited me to find a babysitter so that I could go out with them and BFF and BFF's girlfriend last night but... um... y'know, I'm tired and it's last-minute so... I was very happy to get an invitation, though, and shared that with WH. (Allgood, thinking of you here.) Evil twin is a train wreck. Personally, financially, physically... he's a hot mess without the hotness. WH locked away all our personal and financial papers before he got here just because, y'know, of his past and everything... whatever... yeah, THAT's the sign of a quality individual. You should definitely discuss your marriage with THAT person, and certainly take his advice.
I'm glad you wrote down the steps for the letters. It's nice to see it all laid out like that. Time to do something you never thought you would be able to do. For me, several years ago, it was rock-climbing. I was quite good at it, but none of my friends were into it so it sorta fell by the wayside.
Boyo1 wanted to go sledding today, so WH, the Boyos and I went and had a blast. We had to drive (we're within walking distance of a great hill) so that evil twin could sit in WH's car with the engine running and listen to music while we sledded. I do not pretend to understand.
I really, really don't want to hear about evil twin's problems from WH when he goes home.
I already know too much, and it's all crap... like evil twin, who does drugs regularly but who does not see any type of therapist for his clinical depression and goes on and off his prescribed medication, is living with his alcoholic, no-post-high-school education GF and her 15yo son. GF and son moved 1,000+ miles from their family to live with evil twin. I don't know if she has a job. Evil twin is acting like the son's father but without any talk of long-term relationship with GF or taking any long-term responsibility for the son. And everyone apparently thinks this is a very good idea. (Though noone has mentioned the feelings of the 15yo, but who cares about him, he's just a kid, he'll be fine... as long as mommy and her BF get to play house... ) WH has actually praised evil twin for this, and said it's good for him (evil twin). REALLY. I freaking hate that attitude!
I am just being polite and keeping to myself. Oh, I sound like a serial killer.
[This message edited by ImNellNow at 2:48 PM, February 6th (Sunday)]