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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men-Part 7
Deeply Scared
♀ Administrator
Member # 2
Red  Posted: 12:05 PM, January 19th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Example:

I know some women are reading this with there panties in a bunch but screw it. I have watched too many of my brothers in arms get screwed over by these pretty pampered selfish, me too women in the US.

That is a generalization.

This thread is littered with them.

Just talk about your situation


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 191862 | Registered: May 2002
OnceInALifetime
♂ Member
Member # 26023
Default  Posted: 12:07 PM, January 19th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So why have a separate thread for betrayed men, if we can't discuss the feelings we as betrayed men generally share? If we can only talk about our own specific situations, we might as well post in General instead.

What value do you as mods see in this thread? What was your intention in creating it?


BH, now divorced

Posts: 3012 | Registered: Oct 2009
Deeply Scared
♀ Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 12:10 PM, January 19th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WHos is stopping your from talking about your feelings? Can you point to a specific post saying that?

Of course we want you to have a place...but it's not going to be a place to bash women or men. We don't allow that anywhere, so a dedicated thread for the men isn't the exception.

[This message edited by Deeply Scared at 12:31 PM, January 19th (Wednesday)]


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 191862 | Registered: May 2002
CaptainTal
♂ New Member
Member # 30766
Default  Posted: 12:15 PM, January 19th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I understand, and I'll privately PM you guys when I see threads that contain generalizations.

That being said, I feel like I still don't have total clarification. You're saying that NO generalization is tolerated. But how is this even possible? I'm not sure there are too many threads without generalizations in them. "Affairs are hurtful to betrayed spouses". "Wayward spouses are in a fog". "They always affair down". "They weren't thinking about us (BS) when they had their affairs". These are all generalizations which are posted on threads daily. Yet I have NEVER seen anyone called out on them. It's certainly your right as a moderator to decide what to go after and what to leave alone, but can you understand how this would leave us very confused? I honestly, honestly do not understand what's going to get us in trouble and what's not. As per my previous post, if I preface with "In My Opinion", is that then allowed?

There are some things which are really big in my decision regarding whether to R or D, including my opinion that the court system in my state favors women. If I post that it might be considered a generalization, but if I don't post it how can I get input from other guys who have been through this? So if I preface it with "In My Opinion" then am I OK?

I don't want to offend anyone, I don't want to break the rules, but I also want to be able to post openly and honestly and receive the help and support that I (and many others here) need. We're about to lose our thread here, and I really am begging for some help in understanding how to approach this so that we can still support each other and not lose this important facet of our shattered lives.

UPDATE:
Deeply Scared: Thank-you for being direct and honest and saying that you don't want us to "BASH WOMEN". I think that's the truth of the matter here. Otherwise, as someone else pointed out, pretty much all of JFO and General would have to be shut down because the generalizations about WS's and AP's there are rampant. I gave just one of many, many, many examples by pointing out the "Honey, they ALWAYS affair down" thread.

So I'm fine with that. We shouldn't bash women. We shouldn't say they are all entitled princesses. Fair enough. But can we agree that we're in trouble because of women bashing, not because of vague generalizing?

[This message edited by CaptainTal at 12:20 PM, January 19th (Wednesday)]


Me: BH (31)
Her: WW (30)
3 kids: 6,4,1
D-day: 06/29/10. False R through November. Now working on real R. Or so I'm led to believe.


Posts: 18 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: United States
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 12:33 PM, January 19th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm kinda torn here. Generalization is a basic function of daily logic, like "All beef comes from cows" and the phrasing of the rules certainly states "No generalizations about XYZ" but the confusion here really seems to be about the differentiation from that and the logical fallacies usually meant by that word instead.

The logical fallacies there are about using generalizations to build a false statement through faulty means; "All women are gold digging badwords" is a fallacy whereas "All women have boobies" is a logical generalization; exceptions occur to all rules, including generalizations, so "All women have boobies" is an accurate representation of functional generalization whereas "All women are gold digging badwords" is derived from a localized bias of some sort rather than the complete sampling of the subject matter.

So saying "All the women *I have met* are gold digging badwords" appends the requisite conditions to negate the fault - in this case personal experience shows that the subject matter is not, in fact, all women out there but the localized subset encountered by the statements origin.

So we can say "The picture of George Clooney in F&G hanging half naked from something on the beach looks like the Librarian from the Discworld without hair and anyone thinking that is attractive is really freaking weird imo" vs "All George Clooneys are Monkey People" with one as a valid generalization from reason and the other comical yet faulty broad-stroke.

Some of those things, like "Honey, they always affair down" are questionable and have actually been brought up in those threads - I recall a woman asking what that says about her husband, since he was the MOW's AP - she didn't feel the MOW's BH was a step up from her FWH. That could be argued either way I suppose, but I think what that comes down to, again, is localized subject matter dependent on the situation. A WS will not always be a downrank, just like George Clooney will not always be an oragutan. Someday, a WS can climb out of the hole and be a FWS and be so much more than they were and George Clooney will look like Treebeard in a few years instead of an Orang. While they are in that space, though, they have attributes that by their nature are considered a 'down ranked' version of the people the BS thought they were, and therefore can be logically considered Affaired Down.

I had too much coffee and not enough food today. Please don't ban me.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7101 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
OnceInALifetime
♂ Member
Member # 26023
Default  Posted: 12:33 PM, January 19th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

For me, the line becomes vague when discussing things I and/or other men see as certain gender roles encouraged by this society. Now I'm scared to bring up this sort of topic. Maybe it's out of place in an infidelity forum, but sometimes we betrayed men do feel that society plays a role in our WW's behavior.

ETA: well, maybe I'm being too literal in rule translation, here. Seems pretty clear you just don't want outright, unadulterated women bashing.

[This message edited by OnceInALifetime at 12:40 PM, January 19th (Wednesday)]


BH, now divorced

Posts: 3012 | Registered: Oct 2009
Deeply Scared
♀ Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 12:42 PM, January 19th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You guys are making this way more difficult than it has to be. Seriously.

All men are pigs.

All women are whores.

Generalization.

My wife is a fucking whore

NOT a generalization.

You're all giving me a headache.

Generalization...but you are.


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 191862 | Registered: May 2002
Deeply Scared
♀ Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 12:47 PM, January 19th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

More examples.

Women are all selfish bitches!

Generalization.

Sounds like we all married the same self bitch!

NOT a generalization.


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 191862 | Registered: May 2002
CaptainTal
♂ New Member
Member # 30766
Default  Posted: 12:50 PM, January 19th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't think we are making it more difficult than it has to be. I understand what a generalization is and what it is not. I'm sure everyone else does too.

What we don't understand is why, if each of us can easily point out how half of the threads in JFO/General have generalizations, nothing is ever said/done about them. What we're trying to understand is not what a generalization is, but rather which generalizations go punished and which go unpunished on this board.

Obviously things such as "they always affair down", "BS's are never at fault for an affair", "WS's are in the fog", "Affairs are always selfish", etc etc ad nauseum are not punished. Obviously things such as "women are entitled princesses" or "the courts favor women" are. Fine. No problem. I think I'm starting to get the pattern, and I think I can probably manage not to offend anyone from this point forward.

But please don't tell us that generalizations aren't allowed period, when all of us (whoops :) ) can clearly see that many, many, many are tolerated and not given a second thought. It just ends up leaving people feeling frustrated and confused.

So let's just lay it out there for this thread. No more making negative generalizations about women. Pretty simple rule and I think we can follow it.

[This message edited by CaptainTal at 12:51 PM, January 19th (Wednesday)]


Me: BH (31)
Her: WW (30)
3 kids: 6,4,1
D-day: 06/29/10. False R through November. Now working on real R. Or so I'm led to believe.


Posts: 18 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: United States
MangledHeart
♂ Webmaster
Member # 1
Default  Posted: 12:59 PM, January 19th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Walk the plank captain.

Anyone else want to push the issue?


Worry does not empty tomorrow of its sorrow; it empties today of its strength. ~Corrie Ten Boom

Posts: 4834 | Registered: May 2002 | From: Texas
Lotsa
♂ Member
Member # 28078
Default  Posted: 4:33 AM, January 20th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

{Tiptoeing back in...}

Now I have heard and can attest to the debilitating effects of the dreaded *man-flu*, but the following article was to say the least...

Some poor men are apparently allergic to their own semen

Some poor men are apparently allergic to their own semen, developing a mysterious flu-like illness after they have an ejaculation, Dutch researchers reported Monday. The condition, known as post-orgasmic illness syndrome or POIS, has been documented since 2002. Symptoms include feverishness, runny nose, extreme fatigue and burning eyes, which can last for up to a week. Some physicians had suggested that the disorder was psychosomatic, but Marcel Waldinger, a professor of sexual psychopharmacology at Utrecht University in the Netherlands, and his colleagues demonstrated in two papers in the Journal of Sexual Medicine that the syndrome was allergic in nature and that it might be possible to desensitize men to the problem.

Waldinger and his colleagues studied 45 men with POIS. Thirty-three of the men agreed to undergo a standard skin-prick allergy test using a diluted form of their own semen; 29 of those 33, or 88%, showed a positive allergic reaction, indicating an autoimmune response. It is not clear, however, why they exhibited a response to the semen only when it was released from the testicles. "They didn't feel ill when they masturbated without ejaculating," Waldinger told Reuters. "But as soon as the semen came from the testes ... after that, they became ill, sometimes within just a few minutes."

In a second study in the same journal, Waldinger used what is known as hyposensitization therapy on two of the men, injecting them first with very dilute solutions of their own semen, then over a period of months with more concentrated forms. The team found that, after periods of one and three years, the men showed a significant reduction in their POIS symptoms. The researchers are now treating more patients, Waldinger said.

http://www.latimes.com/health/boostershots/la-heb-semen-allergy-01172011,0,7974814.story


Posts: 880 | Registered: Mar 2010
Mr. Kite
♂ Member
Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 8:20 AM, January 20th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Journalism at its finest.

Some poor men are apparently allergic to their own semen

So if they had lots of money they wouldn't be allergic?

they exhibited a response to the semen only when it was released from the testicles.

But as soon as the semen came from the testes

Where else would semen be released from? Is there something I don't know about?

Symptoms include feverishness, runny nose, extreme fatigue and burning eyes, which can last for up to a week.

Obvious joke: These are the same symptoms WW claims when I bring up the subject of her having sex with me. (rimshot)



Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
somanyyears
♂ Member
Member # 26970
Default  Posted: 12:47 PM, January 20th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


..well..isn't it just too bad that my WW didn't have a severe alergic reaction to swallowing OM's semen after the first time???

..instead..she seemed to develop a serious liking for the vile stuff, so she continued to find a way to get her fix..for nearly 20 years..

..and it was my semen she refused to swallow..

..ya..kinda does a number on the self-esteem..

..his cum..GOOD, my cum..BAD

..tough to make any sense of the whole, disgusting affair.

smy


trust no other human- love only your pets
She isn't and never was who I thought..I can't believe who I married and what she did to us.
Me 66
Her 63
Married 41 yrs (together 47)
18 yr LTA with bf


Posts: 4015 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: the sad state of affairs
Crossbow
♂ Member
Member # 15224
Default  Posted: 1:35 PM, January 20th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow, what blows my mind (one thing) about some of the recent posts is that various guys were going on about how "ALL" women, or "U.S." women were pampered, entitled, etc.

Stay with me here. How many BWs would you guess are on this site? And how many of their WHs behaved like selfish, entitled assholes? Sometimes the same BW has had the same experiences with several WBFs or WHs. Does that make *all men* selfish, entitled assholes? Or the men in their country? Of course not.

From what I have seen, almost every WS acts like a selfish, entitled, narcissistic shithead while they are cheating/in the fog. Male and female.

As to "American women" being selfish, entitled, pampered, etc., obviously you've not met my FWW. Yes, she cheated on me, and during that time was selfish, entitled, etc and treated me like dogshit. After that ended, she went back to "normal" for her, and wasn't any of those things anymore.

Geez, most of the women I know aren't like that (selfish, pampered, entitled).

And yeah, if you keep picking lemons, it's time to figure out how to make better choices. I picked out 3 abusive women in a row before I figured out how to do something different. It is *absolutely* possible to pick lemon after lemon, even cheater after cheater. You gotta figure out how to do something different. They're out there. Even here in the U.S.

I'm still stunned by some of the things I've seen here lately.

[This message edited by Crossbow at 1:37 PM, January 20th (Thursday)]


DDay 7/4/07 found out about online/sexting EA with OM
DDay 7/25/07 found out about OW
In R

2 DSs, ages 8 and 6
DD, 1


Posts: 9376 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Utah
jilteddad1
♂ New Member
Member # 29864
Default  Posted: 10:46 PM, January 20th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Great I get to join up. I got a situation that I would like some input with. My WW has had face book A for since this summer. At least 5 that turned to personal contact phone and chat sex and one that was coming to meet her. When this was discovered I asked her to leave. I don;t know for sure but I believe she had a PA that weekend. It seemed to end at the beginning of the holidays,I think OP dumped WW. Now she seems to be trying to change the situation to be about how unhappy she is and am I worthy of having her back. I have been torn up and I'm supposed to court her?

Posts: 42 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: Texas
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 7:06 AM, January 21st (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Now she seems to be trying to change the situation to be about how unhappy she is and am I worthy of having her back. I have been torn up and I'm supposed to court her?

Wait, *you* worthy of *her*? She cheated on you, doesn't work like that.

Sure she was unhappy. That doesn't give her the right to shit all over your marriage. There's a right way to deal with being unhappy and a wrong way, she chose the wrong way and that's all on her.

She should be working to show that *she* is worthy of *you*, not the other way around. If she expects otherwise - especially courting her - she is deep in her foggy WaSteland. She was the liar and betrayer, not you.

If you haven't already done so I'd suggest posting your story in JFO as well to get some advice. Definitely read up on articles in the healing library.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7101 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 9:55 AM, January 21st (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have been torn up and I'm supposed to court her?

Been there. Done that.

Try the 180.

And what ever you do. Dont try and *win her back*.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3074 | Registered: Sep 2007
Mighty
♂ Member
Member # 26909
Default  Posted: 10:04 AM, January 21st (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I’m with Razor.. Do not try and win her back. You can kill two birds with one stone though. As hard as it is, start really working on yourself. As yourself what you want to do, and do it. Don’t ask permission, don’t do it hoping she’ll notice, etc. Rebuild yourself, find yourself. It will help you cope and build your self-esteem back up.
And she’ll notice. She’s going to be more attracted to someone who’s working out, going out with buds, and enjoying himself than some miserable emotional guy who’s bitching and moaning. And the other cool part, is as you get stronger mentally and physically, and regain a new found self-esteem from within... You will know you can take her or leave her and it is entirely your choice. If she wants to join you in your life, she’ll have to earn that place by your side.


BS (me) 44 WS (her)43
Married 17yrs, Together 20 yrs
Three children (9-13)
D-Day #1 - 4/11/09 (me).. DD's stopped, she quit talking. Body count: 6 OM, 1 OW. (2 EA's, 1 LTPA, 1 PA, 3 "kisses").

Posts: 629 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Denver
jilteddad1
♂ New Member
Member # 29864
Default  Posted: 12:47 PM, January 21st (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for all your input. I started my story on JFO (running away) back in October. I don't know if it is still up.

One of the areas that has burned me up in all this was the amount of communication she had with the OP's (I saw close to 5 op's in some degree of EA) She got on face book and changed her profile shaved 15 years and claimed she was divorced. She did finally have a PA with one but I think he dumped her when he was done. From the beginning of all this I told her if we were going to get over this she needed to see me and act like I was not just her husband but her boyfriend. We she has had so much practice I told her one of the ways I would feel this change in her was if she would start sending me flirty texts and emails too. But no...she does not feel comfortable doing that. Excuses like the boys are in the car, I am still hurting from surgery, or my favorite...I don't feel sexy!


Posts: 42 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: Texas
3yrwait
♂ Member
Member # 29907
Default  Posted: 1:19 PM, January 21st (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jilted,
Take Mighty's advice.
In my experience, trying to change WW's opinion is futile. Any suggestion or effort to "control" WW will be resisted, and efforts to change yourself for WW will be dismissed.
The only thing you can do is improve yourself for yourself. If she likes it she will chase you, if she doesn't it is her loss.


Me: BH (early 40s)
Her: WW (early 40s)
Married 15 years
1 daughter, under 10
DDay July 2007

Posts: 450 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: 3yrwait
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