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User Topic: Betrayed Men-Part 7
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Default  Posted: 11:37 PM, February 17th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Great topics today. From my experience of being emasculated over several years, trying to please but failing, constantly being told I am wrong, and eventually becoming a classic BH, I eventually had an epiphany:
If everything I do will be criticized, then I am free to do whatever the hell I want, because the result will be the same. If I am going to be punished, I might as well commit the crime.
Dealing with W became easier after that.
Edit: W view of me changed as well, I went from being a pushover to someone to be chased.

[This message edited by 3yrwait at 9:48 AM, February 18th (Friday)]

Me: BH (early 40s)
Her: WW (early 40s)
Married 15 years
1 daughter, under 10
DDay July 2007

Posts: 450 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: 3yrwait
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Default  Posted: 7:45 AM, February 18th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Putting aside labels for a second.

Ask your spouses,

"Do you deserve someone like me?"

"Are you worthy of the gift of my love and what I have to offer?"

If she scoffs at that, there is no respect. If you find the question silly, you really need to do some self reflection.

Are you a unique man with talents and strengths no one else can offer? Or are you just another dime a dozen penis?

I have met women where I feel like I feel lucky to be around them. I thank God that circumstance has merged our two paths together. If she does not feel that way, there is either something wrong with her, me, or both.

You will be worth nothing in the eyes of others if you don't feel your own high self worth.

ME - BSO (35 yrs old)
Her - XWSO (31 yrs old)
LTR 10 years - There can be no 2nd chances

Posts: 995 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Default  Posted: 2:16 PM, February 18th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lately I have had this line of thinking and it has immensely helped me.

My wife should be lucky we are still married and that I even talk to her or do anything for her at all.

If she does not believe that fine. The key is for ME to believe it.

As such at this point me saying hi is more than what she deserves for what she has done and the lack of effort she has put into the M.

Posts: 934 | Registered: Apr 2008
Feb 8, 2011
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Default  Posted: 7:22 AM, February 21st (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Glad to have just found this thread..

Like many of you I bent over backwards to be a good husband and a gread father only to have it blow up in my face. I too am going to move forward knowing that if she doesn't know what she's got, she's going to lose it.

D-Day see username
and maybe March 11, 11
ME: 45 yr old BH
Her: 40 yr old WW
3 kids
married 11 years
Who is this woman in my house?!

Posts: 717 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: canada
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Default  Posted: 11:52 AM, February 21st (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


Like many of you I bent over backwards to be a good husband and a gread father only to have it blow up in my face.

Therein lies the difference between many of us and our WW. We knew there were problems in the M. And our response to this was to work toward a better M. My WW response was to find a fuck buddy.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.

Posts: 3084 | Registered: Sep 2007
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Default  Posted: 12:31 PM, February 21st (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You will never be able to convince me that being a good husband and father blows up in your face. Those actions/behaviors are the simply the right things to do.

What I think really blows up in our face is accepting crap from our wives. We get used to accepting a level of bullshit that we would never accept on a professional level, but we do it to maintain peace or avoid conflict in front of the children, or whatever.

Once we do that, we expose a weakness that our wives (not all wives) decide to exploit. Couple acceptance of crap with trust and you have the foundation for an affair.

I am absolutely convinced of the commonality of these two things in the pathology of WW affairs. Now, other things are necessary (a willing slut to fuck around with, etc), but if the wife thinks she can get away with it, she is more likely to engage in a PA. And what else says that you CAN get away with it more than a trusting H that puts up with a high level of shit in other aspects of the marriage??

Infidelity sucks shit

Posts: 879 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Finding my way
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Default  Posted: 12:43 PM, February 21st (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It sure blew up in my face-I even kept the kids before they were old enuff to go to school-never again will I be the nice guy.

time wounds all heels

Posts: 5359 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
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Default  Posted: 12:56 PM, February 21st (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think reallyscrewedup7 makes a decent point.

One of the things my wife complained about before and during her A (that I never really understood, and so didn't give it the weight it deserved) was that I was a better wife than she was. I could keep a clean house, tend to the kids without assistance, got them off to school every morning, fixed dinners most evenings, etc.

Now, my wife was in nursing school for 5 years, so I saw taking on this extra burden as my part in supporting her career desires.

The message it sent to her was that I didn't need her. My competency threatened her and played on all of her own insecurities about being a bad wife and mother.

There wasn't anything inherently wrong with being a good father and husband. It didn't encourage her to take advantage of me, per se. But it did play on her own insecurities in ways I could not have predicted.

(And, of course, on D-day, I got the screaming rant that I'd never supported her schooling, never helped her when she needed it, didn't do a good enough job of keeping the kids off her back, etc. All of this because she had one paper that she'd asked me to edit for her that I didn't do. She conveniently forgot all of the domestic work and the Sundays I spent learning new programming languages to get her through her general ed computing classes, etc. She also forgot that her #1 way of getting laid by the OM was telling me she was going out to study all night while I stayed home with the kids. But, of course, that wasn't enough.)

Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 3:26 AM, February 22nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I agree with reallyscrewedup7 and wal.

Its not that I was a decent honest hard working man that laid the foundation for my WW's A. That aspect is actually probably what caused the M to last as long as it did before she wandered. It was my willingness to over-ride my own interests for the good of the family and for her.

Even that alone i do not think is enough to cause infidelity, but it certainly re-inforces the sense of entitlement. My giving in was a continual re-inforcement that she was entitled to what she wanted.

When what she wanted was more than i was able to give the entitlement allowed her to justify seeking it elsewhere.

I can still be decent, honest, hard working, and take care of things, but Ive learnt my leason, no longer will i allways be the one to subjugate my needs my desires for another. It has to be give and take, not all give and all take.

Me BS 37, Her STBX 34, 1*ONS, 1*EA 1*PA/EA, 2*PA
Heading for D after 9 mths of R

Posts: 1468 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Europe
Mr. Kite
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Default  Posted: 11:51 AM, February 22nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

An interview with two women authors on the subject of how feminism has been bad for women. It also touches on marriage, divorce, and how men get screwed over in the divorce process.

I stayed away from the political opinions and much of the hawking of the book. If you want to read the entire interview, copy/paste the link.

'Feminists Love Divorce!'

"If there's one thing feminists love, it's divorce - they consider it liberating." That's just one of the claims Phyllis Schlafly and her co-author Suzanne Venker make in their new book, The Flipside of Feminism: What Conservative Women Know - And Men Can't Say, to be released this March.

Why do you claim feminists love divorce?

Phyllis: Their own writings reveal that feminists sought liberation from home, husband, family, childbirth, children, and the role of fulltime homemaker. They wanted to be independent of men and liberated from the duties of marriage and motherhood.

So, their first legislative goal was the adoption of easy-to-get divorce. They were behind California's adoption of unilateral divorce, which then spread across the country.

So why do so many marriages fail, not just those of feminists?

Suzanne: Living in a culture in which people break vows easily makes it difficult to keep one's own vows. The modern generation was groomed for an independent life. Marriage and motherhood are not something to which young women have been taught to aspire. Instead the women in their lives tell them to focus solely on their career.

The result is women don't think of marriage and motherhood as fulfilling in and of itself. It's silly to think there's something wrong with being in the kitchen--everybody has to eat! Sandra Bullock's claim marriage is the end of who you are is indicative of the modern generation's defeatist attitude toward marriage.

What do you believe is the single biggest obstacle to lasting marriages?

Suzanne: Americans' attitude. We have this notion that "Hey, we can always get divorced if it doesn't work out." This is in stark contrast to the attitude in previous generations, where marriage was assumed to be a lifelong, irrevocable commitment. In my twenties, I had what we now call a "starter marriage": one that lasts less than five years and does not produce children. My ex-husband and I both had considerable doubts, and I distinctly recall our conversation, before we got married, about the fact that we could always get divorced. How pitiful is that?

You claim feminism failed women. Why?

Phyllis: None of the feminists' goals, including the Equal Rights Amendment, offered women a single benefit they didn't have before, zip. But it would have taken away a lot of the rights and benefits women then possessed such as the right to be exempt from the military and the right of a wife to be supported by her husband.

Feminists demeaned marriage and motherhood even though most women want marriage and motherhood. Feminism has run its course, and surveys show that women are not as happy now as they were in the 1950s.

Suzanne: Let me add that feminism also taught women that men are idiots, so now there's a lack of respect for men who are considered an inconvenience. It's a wonder any marriage survives.

You claim American women have never had it better. What do you mean by that?

Phyllis: American women can structure their lives to accomplish anything they want.

How so?

Phyllis: It is self evident that American women are the most fortunate women who ever lived and enjoy more freedoms and opportunities than are available in any other country. Armed with the right attitude, they have every opportunity for happiness and achievement. Women should stop feeling they are victims of the patriarchy, reject feminist myths, and follow the roadmap to success and happiness spelled out in Flipside.

Do we need divorce reform?

Phyllis: Yes. We need to restore fault-based reasons to justify divorce. When a man and woman stand up before witnesses and solemnly swear to love and cherish, forsaking all others, 'till death do us part, do they mean it, or are they lying?

The best way to reduce divorce is to legislate 50-50 joint custody of children, unless evidence proves one parent unfit. It would eliminate the current incentive to one parent, usually the woman, who now believes she can walk out on all marital obligations, taking the kids and the income of the other parent.

One comment I get writing about divorce reform is: "You can't legislate morality." What do you think?

Phyllis: That's ridiculous. We have adopted thousands of federal and state laws to legislate morality. What do you think the criminal code is?

Flipside states that our courts no longer protect the sanctity of marriage, but rather owe their allegiance to the institution of divorce. Can you explain?

Phyllis: Marriage is a contract, and one party should not be able to renounce it without the consent of the other party.

The family courts are the lowest in the judicial hierarchy, but the most powerful. Family court judges exercise unaccountable discretion according to their own personal biases and preferences. They have control over the private living arrangements and income of 48 million Americans and $40 billion in transfer payments made between households.

Family court judges are an arm of government that exercises virtually unlimited power to dictate the private lives and income of millions of Americans who have committed no actionable offense. Divorce has become a tremendous money-making industry with judges, psychologists, psychiatrists, custody evaluators, and counselors getting well paid to run other people's lives.

Despite the commercial success of Eat, Pray, Love and Committed, you're fairly critical of both. Why?

Suzanne: Elizabeth Gilbert makes several great observations, for example, that marriage cannot be solely about romantic love, a point we make in Flipside. Gilbert is also a gifted writer. In Committed, however, her analysis of marriage is wrong-headed and immature.

No woman who reads Committed will be encouraged to embrace marriage and family life. Ms. Gilbert does not have children either. Thus her experience is extremely lacking. Like any modern feminist, Gilbert's attitude toward marriage is hopelessly doomed: she believes it threatens women's independence and well-being. She questions the purpose of marriage at every turn and blames conservatives for keeping women down.

So how did things get so out of hand?

Phyllis: The decline of marriage is the result of the work of highly motivated special-interest groups, and they enjoy the support of Big Media. Feminists have also had the support of academia and Hollywood, and they did a pretty good job of intimidating politicians.

Is feminism really to blame for all our marriage and divorce woes?

Suzanne: No, there are other factors that helped it along. Technology, for example, has played a role in the disintegration of the American family. In previous generations, people's worlds were rather small. Close-knit communities and family ties, along with the universal moral order, meant Americans were mostly exposed to people who lived like they did--conservatively.
Today, this world is gone.

Families are spread out; people rarely mill about in their neighborhoods but are instead glued to their television sets and computers; and religious life is at an all-time low. Because of this, young people's preferences are largely influenced by technology and mainstream media, all of which are very liberal. In other words, the culture at large--via college life and the media--has played a larger role in shaping the values and attitudes of young people.

Any final piece of advice for parents contemplating divorce today?

Phyllis: Unless they are dealing with abuse, addiction or extreme conflict, we recommend parents stay together at least until the children have left home. Not only must adult happiness come second to children's needs, research shows that most marriages that end in divorce today are not a result of these extreme circumstances.

Judith Wallerstein's work demonstrates that children fare much better if their parents stay together. Research also shows that couples who once reported being unhappy in their marriage were much happier together five years down the road.

Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
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Default  Posted: 9:22 AM, February 23rd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wal and really have a point and it was huge when I realized it myself.

My ability to work balance everything else I do and do it well at some levels threatened my wife.

My being a good guy played into her damaged self esteem and no amount of me telling her different mattered.

This was huge because when I look in my role in everything I was not a perfect but very good husband whose only issue is that I accepted getting too little from her.

Now this where it gets really hard and where IMHO Wal you got lucky. Your wife appears to have confronted herself.

Sometimes they won't ... read my wife.

3 years later she is the same person. Insecure, needs control of others and no control of herself. She is purely I half glass empty type of person.

I have had to in some ways stop wanting anything from her and develop my own happiness through my children and through hobbies and friends outside the M.

I have let go and realize it was never my job to fix her issues and at the sametime had to stop enabling her by being their for her and being her ego prop especially after the ruthless cheating she did to me and our children.

I have confronted myself conversly and really tried looking at me from the third person and realize my core is very good and I had a bit of work to do with regard to self care.

I think this dynamic plays out in many of the guys I see on here. Perfect husbands ... no. hard working with heart in the right place ... in spades.

I hate that I have basically had to let go and really learn to expect nothing and realize all my issues in the M are really hers and my only role right now s to focus on me and the children and leave everything else on the side.

I feel better personally and am happy with myself despite the fact you could never call what I have a marriage.

My rationale mind says it does not have to be this way but in the end you need to take a hard look at reality and live that.

[This message edited by lostcause111 at 8:08 AM, February 24th (Thursday)]

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Default  Posted: 2:37 PM, February 23rd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


Your tag line is my latest trigger...

Infidelity sucks shit

Posts: 879 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Finding my way
Mr. Kite
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Default  Posted: 9:47 AM, February 25th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The silence is deafening. Everyone alright out there?

Didn't want anyone to miss this cringe-worthy article.

Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
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Default  Posted: 11:38 AM, February 25th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I agree with a lot of what that article was pointing to.

I think another factor in the decline of the family is that "today's women" believe they can have it all. Family, Career, Education, Money, High End Lifestyle, Super Mom, the never ending romance etc etc.

The term housewife or SAHM has a negative connotation to some women.

When reality hits that they can never achieve everything, I think it's a rude awakening. However, the dogged persuit of these unrealistic goals (IMO) in the meantime does immeasurable damage to everyone around them.

ME - BSO (35 yrs old)
Her - XWSO (31 yrs old)
LTR 10 years - There can be no 2nd chances

Posts: 995 | Registered: Mar 2010
Mr. Kite
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Default  Posted: 12:10 PM, February 25th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for the input on the earlier article, oftenwrong. I was referring to the article on the legendary John Wayne Bobbitt.

Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
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Default  Posted: 7:54 AM, February 28th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The Bobbit story is a tired double standard that's just not worth arguing about anymore.

The rough equivalent would be to jam a soldering iron into your abusive wife's girl parts. I just don't have much sympathy for anyone in the situation. Crazy vs crazy means I just want distance from it.

“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7107 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
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Default  Posted: 10:01 AM, February 28th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Why did you give them a second chance?

I know the traffic is slow here, so I don't expect much in the way of responses, but I am just fed up with hearing from women about this. Every one of them, without exception, think I should give my FWW a second chance now that she is genuinely remorseful.

Not to make light of that, she really is remorseful to the point where I took her for psychiatric evaluation. It is clear she wants me back, is dedicated to fixing herself and will do the work, has agreed to a fairly draconian set of demands (with some push back, but I am fine with those points) I have laid down for R, and takes full responsibility for her actions and the damage.

But I am just not sure. We've been separated more than three months. I have taken a lot of time to figure out what I want to do. #1 on my list - I do not want to repeat the last two years of our marriage. Even without the A, they were (at times) miserable. Minus the sex and the kids, I wondered (more than once) why I was staying.

She can be wonderful. She is beautiful, smart, funny, and until the A, a great mother. But the M just went to pot. It seemed like we were in a constant competition. Every success I had was a loss for her. There was REAL resentment and it was almost unbearable. Practically abusive at times.

But when she got out of that "mood," things were usually good, if not great. So I got to the point where I would hide my professional life from her because it just caused her more resentment.

She is in counseling now, and that was one of the main things I asked her to deal with. She has been sharing a lot with me following her "confession." We are doing things as a family, although I have not pulled the D petition yet.

I've got little financial downside to R. Our agreed-to postnup is very favorable to me (but again, I have not signed it), DD wants us back together, and DS is coming around to not hating his mother any more. I am still very attracted to FWW and maybe it has been the detachment, but I have really forgiven her for the affair. I honestly believe she would never do that again. (And I do not say that lightly)

I just haven't forgiven her for treating me like crap during the last two years of our M. Maybe I haven't really forgiven her for the A because she treated me like crap during and after, but I know it started long before then.

MC is addressing some of this. But I just can't pull the trigger. Maybe I still have feelings for B that are clouding my judgment? Maybe I just don't want to be a doormat again...

Well, if nothing else, it felt good to get it out.

Infidelity sucks shit

Posts: 879 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Finding my way
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Default  Posted: 11:14 AM, February 28th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I thing all of us stay (or go) for different reasons.

In my case I doubt my WW sincerity about remorse etc. Will she do it again? Since she blames me and our M for her A then I believe if her perception of our M and me return to what it was then she probably will cheat again.

Of course she says she wont cheat again. But this claim may be common among WS. And really - what else should I expect her to say?

I stay in my M because of finances. I am a older guy and retired. And dividing my retirement account by 2.. or more, would make living difficult. And why should MY life be difficult because SHE chose to screw around?

So yeh. we all have different reasons.

Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.

Posts: 3084 | Registered: Sep 2007
Between a Rock
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Default  Posted: 11:28 AM, February 28th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I need some perspective from other men...

I'm 4 1/2 months from my Ddays where over the course of 24 hours learned that my WW had a sex with 4 other men during our relationship. Two were 14 years ago and included a 3 month PA with her boss (married) and a one-time PA (supposedly oral only) with a co-worker. The second two were a 5 month EA/PA with a mutual friend (also married) and a ONS with a guy she picked up at a bar while on a trip with her cousin that happened last year. I caught her on the 5 month EA/PA and he outed her on the ones from 14 years ago.

We have been together for 17 years and are coming up on our 8th Wedding Anniversary. We have 3 small children (5, 5, 6.5) and also lost a child right after birth 8 years ago.

It goes without saying that the last few months have been the worst time of my life. Right after dday I was in shock and really felt like I wanted to work things out and stay with her. Then about the beginning of December I started to feel more angry than hurt and couldn't see myself staying with her. I knew enough about dealing with loss to know that I was going to go through a whole series of emotions and not to make any rash decisions that could be hard to undo.

My WW has done and is doing everything I have asked. She is both regretful and remorseful. Is being transparent. Is being open and willing to answer anything I ask.

My problem is that its now 3 more months later and the feeling of wanting to divorce is greater now than ever and getting stronger everyday. I read the stories her of BH who WW that are not open, not remorseful, evening staying with the OM and I think to myself "What the hell is wrong with you (me)?". I seem to have what so many of you are looking for out of your WW but I still can't see myself staying with her.

I know that moving forward with divorce is going to cause my children a great deal of pain. I came from a family of divorce and the last thing I ever wanted was that for my children. I feel shame for what seems like the fact that I'm putting myself ahead of my children.

Anyone else go through having a remorseful WW but still choosing divorce? How did you get past the pain it caused your children?

Am I wrong for feeling that this is just something that is too big for me to forgive?

Thanks for your help.

But you, you’ve gone too far this time
You have neither reason nor rhyme
With which to take this soul that is so rightfully mine

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Default  Posted: 11:33 AM, February 28th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


I am not sure your whole story, but I get that your W had an A about 3 - 4 months ago. You have been seperated for 3 months, she is doing some work to fix herself and the M, but you are uncertain if you want to D or R.

At this close out, my FWW had not yet begun to do the real work she needed to correct her mis-perceptions and identify her internal issues that led to her A's. If I had to make a call anytime in the 1st 6-9 months to leave or stay I would have left. But I did not have to make the call. While things were not good, they were not getting worse. I had time to look at my options and choose my path of least regret. Now that FWW is months into her IC and doing the work, her perceptions have changed, and life is better than it had been for decades. She (we) still have work to go, but I am willing to put in more time to wait for her. We have a history and kids. D would have ended the M, but not our relationship, so I have waited, and waited...

Had I left I would be getting through the worse parts of D about now and I think that would have been OK too, but I would have wondered if we could have fixed things. My FWW has a lot of FOO and SAb crap to work through, and she is doing it. If she works through most of this I think we will have a good marriage we can be proud of and enjoy. The A's will always be back there, but they would be there no matter which option I took.

There does not need to be a rush, and not D-ing is not R-ing. It is waiting and healing.


FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09

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