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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men-Part 7
velveteer
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Member # 30997
Default  Posted: 2:43 AM, March 22nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hey Mr Kite - you are dead right about the birds of a feather. I saw the negative influence this woman was having on WW from way back, but didn't see the A with her husband coming at me. Blind trust.

Who knows if she will come back to the real world, but I sometimes feel that she is circling around it. Told her last night that I had been tested for STDs and she needed to do the same - usual shrug of the shoulders like a petulant teenager.

This morning though she looks like she has had a real shock, said a pathetic sorry and will call the doctor today. Will see how this little dose of nasty reality goes down.


Divorced

Posts: 854 | Registered: Jan 2011
SourCherryDrops
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Member # 25883
Default  Posted: 4:47 AM, March 22nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think in tyhe forst few weeks, I was desparate to R but that was driven largely by fear and shock. Now that I see more clearly (IC a huge help in this) I find myself asking more questions about whether or this is really what I want, or more accurately if she is what I want.

That is a huge statement and it sometimes takes men years to figure that out. Can people change? Absolutely.

The question is, can SHE change? Strip away the optimism, the dream of what you would like to happen, the illusion of the beautiful, honest, loyal wife you used to know and find that answer.

What is that voice inside telling you?

Before she can change she needs to want to change. You can help create a situation where she wants to change, but in the end no matter what you do you cannot make her change.

Personally I believe in this situatuion where a WW expresses a desire to change that she should be given the opportunity to try.

The change is not guaranteed, and it may even take a while for it to even be noticable, but during that time you should see a constant effort to effect the change.

There is also a period immediately after DDay where she may not even express the desire to change, she is still in the fog, still caught up in the fantasy of her own deceptions.

Each of us has to decide for ourselves, how long we are willing to wait for her to emerge from the fog, to dispell the fantasy and make the decision to change. We also need to decide how long we will wait for the change to take effect. These are personal decisions and no matter what each decides his choice is reasonable, we can talk about our own choices but cannot really guide another in theirs, they have to decide that for themselves.

Sometimes youll get someone like WAL who waited a lot longer than most ever would, and eventually his WW came good. Others will wait and never see any change. others wont wait at all.

I think no matter what, for those of us where the outcome was not what we wanted, we will second guess ouselves, we ask if i had done this? if i hadnt done that. had i pushed harder, had i not pushed so hard, had i waited longer, had i stood up at the start...

I dont like the outcome i am faced with, and sure i made some mistakes along the way, heck ill as likely make a few more, BUT, i allways did the best i could, allways handled bassed on my principles. i did the best i could, but just got dealt a bum hand.


Me BS 37, Her STBX 34, 1*ONS, 1*EA 1*PA/EA, 2*PA
Heading for D after 9 mths of R

Posts: 1468 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Europe
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 8:20 AM, March 22nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

usual shrug of the shoulders like a petulant teenager

I think you may be real close to figuring out who you've been married to.

"petulant"--childishly sulky or bad tempered, irritable, touchy

"teenager"--age span from 13 to 19

There's a term for men who refuse to grow up, the Peter Pan Syndrome. For women it may be T.W.I.T--"teenage women in their thirties" that is applicable.
http://www.momlogic.com/2009/08/meet_the_twits_-_teenage_women.php

"adolescence"-- A stage between infancy and adultery. ~Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary, 1911

"adolescent"--For the first time in their lives adolescents may start to view their friends, their peer group, as more important and influential than their parents or guardians. Susceptibility to peer pressure increases during early adolescence.

Adolescent psychology is associated with notable changes in mood sometimes known as mood swings.

Many adolescents find themselves bored, indecisive and/or unmotivated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolescence#Psychology

Is there any stage of life where a human being is more selfish than the teenage years? Would we ask adolescents to make major decisions that could badly affect their lives and ours? Of course not! Then why would we treat WW's who refuse to grow up any differently?

Driving a car, working at a job, being fully developed physically, or even giving birth to children; does not necessarily make a woman an adult emotionally and mentally. We treat our WW's like adults and are then baffled when they respond and act like adolescents. Could it be that they never really grew up?

[This message edited by Mr. Kite at 8:24 AM, March 22nd (Tuesday)]


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
velveteer
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Member # 30997
Default  Posted: 9:00 AM, March 22nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Mr Kite - I am coming to just this realisation. My WW has consistently avoided taking responsibility for her life, going back a very long way and before we were together. As a result, for the 12 years that we have been together, I have held her hand through it all.

She has been more or less a SAHM, and I have dealt with ALL practical matters - finding and buying places to live, earning the money, paying bills, arranging holidays etc - you name it, I've done it.

At the same time, through IC I have also been realising that I have a big issue with a need to control my life - not necessarily to control people, but to control situations and outcomes. As it is obviously not possible to control everthing, this has meant I have essentially set myself up to fail and the result has been anxiety and possibly depression. I have a major goal now to try to let go of this need to control and will be putting a lot of focus on that in IC.

So I am also thinking that these issues are not unrelated. Has my being married to an immature woman that has consistently avoided responsibility meant that I have had to take control? Of course, this may also have suited me, but I am learning that rather than being an effective coping strategy for me, control has actually been a source of stress.

Now when I found out about WW's A I immediately went into control mode and once again it not only didn't work, but caused me further stress (if that was possible). Once I started to let go of the outcomes, I started to feel more empowered.

A far as the A goes, is it a conincidence that WW will be 40 this year, and is reverting back to the behaviour of her 20s? I doubt it.

Still need to think all of these things through, and thankfully I have a very good IC to help. But, I cannot help but think that there is a set of related and intertwined issues in here affecting WW, me and our relationship.


Divorced

Posts: 854 | Registered: Jan 2011
Merlin
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Member # 30221
Default  Posted: 1:22 PM, March 22nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

velveteer,

That's some insight! Much of what you wrote, I could have written about my XW, and about me too.

In letting go of outcomes (I forced the issue by saying 'stop or divorce', she chose divorce) things have just kept going. She still takes no responsibility for any of the marriage, her affair, the divorce and how things are now.

Your personal insight sheds light on why she is completely impassive about every issue. And it opens the door to how I've been a controller about it all.

Now, how better can I let go of outcomes?

Thanks for sharing this.


"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." D. H. Lawrence

Her: WW/56 Me: BS/62, 24yrs M
3 great kids, now 22, 20, 17 b,b,g
D-Day 8/14/08, D 1/13/11


Posts: 1102 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: East Coast
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 2:34 PM, March 22nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

At the same time, through IC I have also been realising that I have a big issue with a need to control my life - not necessarily to control people, but to control situations and outcomes.

As Merlin posted, this is indeed some insight. I too have to plead guilty to being overly controlling in my marriage. Is it my fault or hers? Probably both. The more childish and irresponsible she acted, the more stern and controlling I became. She would then counter by rebelling as any teenager would.

It is my assumption, based on many years of experience living in this skin, that there is a deep-seated fear within that things will go haywire unless I step in and take control. This tendency to play God in the lives of others tends to piss people off and as you mentioned--causes stress.

We live in a world, for the most part, gone mad. The immaturity of WW, not to mention the other chaos inevitable to living this life, has not helped in the least to cause me to let go. But letting go I am.

The path I have chosen is to allow people in my life to go the route of either blessing or destruction. It's their choice and there's not a damn thing I can do about it. The only person I can control is myself. Therein lies the peace.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
jjct
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Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 5:30 PM, March 22nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think we are designed by nature to fix things. I prefer to think of it this way rather than "controlling", which is often a slam. (and truly, some who seek to control others often cannot control themselves, can I get an AMEN?)
Herein lies the difference btwn faux 180 and real 180.

Faux uses 180 to affect change in another, and is dependent upon outcome. It's manipulation. Manipulation of the petulant childish sort. Sulking when you boil it down.

True 180 is truly invested in self growth, dealing with FOO issues (why do i gotta be mr. fixit man alla time? Is it that I find my sense of self worth there? Aha! NO PROBLEM IS INSURMOUNTABLE, since I am so awesome!)

I am so "into me" and my growth, that outcome is relatively irrelevant (well, not keen on being burned at the stake, y'know)...as long as I am true to myself - whatev that means! - my heart beats on an even course blithely, at times,
I might say happily (at times).
Outcome is less important than income, (that's one way how I figured the logic of why it's ok to let go of the outcome) or,
as long as I sleep the sweet sleep at night, I thank God for his mercy for giving me a chance at another day.

Speaking of another day,
I'm celebrating another CATS win with others...whose "easy course" is thermodynamics...she works in the astronomy and physics dep't...with lasers, and cool toys like that...
KITE! Leave my fucking thumb ALONE!


Posts: 6012 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
geightr
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Member # 30962
Default  Posted: 6:55 PM, March 22nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Mr Kite, your post with definitions resonated with me. My ww has devolved into a child. Had some childhood issues and mc indicated she was stuck as an 11 year old in a 42 year old body. WW was so incensed she has refused to go back to mc. Additionally, her family has told her she was acting immature and childish which of course has caused friction on that front. Finally, this past weekend she told me she is " finally getting to do what she wants.". I was blown away and she suggested that doing what she wants is mostly to spend time with her girlfriends. Your definition of adolescence nailed this one. Who would of thunk there'd be some pretty good psychologists on this site.

Posts: 38 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Florida
jjct
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Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 7:09 PM, March 22nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

welcome here g))))))))))))))))

Posts: 6012 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 9:18 PM, March 22nd (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

geightr

Read through your post 'My Story - Kinda of Long But Need To Get It Out.' My WW is in the medical field as well and one of her A's was also with a patient. Guess she had a good bedside manner.

My brother's WW ran out on him and their two children upon hitting her 40's and said "I want to enjoy whatever's left of my life." What a selfish, evil twit! Now at 45, she wears min-skirts and lots of makeup and tries to be cool. How pathetic and sad!

Don't know if there's any psychologists on this thread. Just some men that have been through lots of pain. Pain has a way of helping one to think clearly.

KITE! Leave my fucking thumb ALONE!

Wouldn't dream of messing with your thumb, jjct. I have seen the light.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
zombieman
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Member # 28996
Default  Posted: 1:41 AM, March 23rd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's been a long time since I posted here, betrayed men 5 perhaps? Well 10 months past D Day and the tides have turned, I started this awful time in my life as the guy who would do anything for the M, was just a mess for the first 7 months or so - no real remorse at all from WW. But things have changed.

She, I guess came out of the fog a few months back and really started trying to make this right - discussing how her A came about, telling me when she had to have contact with POS at their workplace (he has since left the job and the city we live in) there is a lot of blame shifting still (now at OP, she was vulnerable and he took advantage - flattered her blah blah) and a lot of self pity about what a mess she has made of her life. But she admits to being selfish and doing this because she wanted to and she could - not great reasons but thats the hard truth of it.

Sounds great and like we are on the track to R right? There's a problem, I've been to the bottom and now I am on my way back up, working out, eating right. Motivated and strong. Plus WW isn't able to live at our house due to a natural disaster in my part of the world (New Zealand) our home is a bit dodgy after an earthquake and no place for my son to be at the moment. So we have a forced separation of sorts. The problem is the more time I spend alone the less I want her back. I'm still pissed off, I'm still unsure if I can ever accept her back into my life as my wife. I just don't know. I have a great time all throughout the week and then she arrives Saturday morning and I feel sick. It's a tough place to be as I don't want to lead her on and tell her it's all good, but I just don't want to make a final decision just yet. I'm still worried that I will wake up in 6 months and think why the hell did I D this woman? Just ranting really, but it feels good to get it all of my chest. I'm just ignoring that part of my life at the moment and focussing on myself - but I know it's still lurking there - the big mess that is my M.


Posts: 88 | Registered: Jul 2010
velveteer
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Member # 30997
Default  Posted: 3:57 AM, March 23rd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Merlin - learning how I let go of outcomes is what I must learn as well. If I get anywhere with this I will certainly share.

Its hard, and as Mr Kite says the tendency is to think that it will all go tits up if we don't step in a take control. One thing my IC said to me weeks ago has never left me and I keep coming back to it. Just as I was leaving one day she asked me what we miss in our lives when we try to control everything. I feel I have missed A LOT with this behaviour.

We also need to learn that we can survive (and thrive) even when we are not in control. I don't know if it is just going with the flow or something more?

I shared a bit of this with WW last night and it was good. We are possibly starting to make some progress. Even if she is not yet ready to let go of her feelings for the A, she is at least aware that she needs to and that some of those feelings are not what she thought they were.

Find myself opening up a bit more - maybe that is me letting go? It seems to help.


Divorced

Posts: 854 | Registered: Jan 2011
oftenwrong
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Member # 27822
Default  Posted: 6:59 AM, March 23rd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

jjct,

Your pictures really make me smile. I love that big grin of yours with these young attractive ladies at your side.


ME - BSO (35 yrs old)
Her - XWSO (31 yrs old)
LTR 10 years - There can be no 2nd chances


Posts: 995 | Registered: Mar 2010
Merlin
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Member # 30221
Default  Posted: 8:52 AM, March 23rd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

velveteer,

I've had to let go of marriage outcomes - she's gone and trying to finish me in court with alimony.

I now think I need to let go of personal outcomes - whatever happens, happens so long as I'm giving it all I've got. I've always been a planner. but in this chaos, planning is reduced to thinking about lunch. Never much for 'trusting the process', I saved, worked and targeted 3 things:
- living well today,
- getting our kids on their way debt free if possible,
- securing retirement,
All blown to Hell now.

The Adult Attention Deficit Disorder that comes with infidelity and divorce makes things worse. I thought that by now, that would subside and I'd be clearer. Things are better than they were in the thick of it but still on the crazy side of the street.

Can you really just trust the process?


"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." D. H. Lawrence

Her: WW/56 Me: BS/62, 24yrs M
3 great kids, now 22, 20, 17 b,b,g
D-Day 8/14/08, D 1/13/11


Posts: 1102 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: East Coast
Mighty
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Member # 26909
Default  Posted: 9:30 AM, March 23rd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Zombieman,
Good to see you back. Sounds like you are on the right track and your WW is slowly coming around. Been there, done that... and the work continues. Keep up the good work on yourself. Sounds like you got a lot of work to do on your home. Rebuilding your house is also nice and will give you a sense of accomplishment when you are done.

As for the feelings you are going through about not sure you want her back.... Normal. Donít lead her on and just tell her how it is. You havenít decided. You donít have to. Itís neither good or bad. Itís a window for her to try and make it right and for both of you to sort out your shit.

Keep working on yourself. Hopefully sheís doing the same. I think of it as going back to the dating period. Personally, Iím not yet ready to commit to a life long relationship with my WW, but have gotten to the point where I can once again see it as a real possibility. So, for me at least, Iíll be at 2 years post DD next month and still consider myself a fence sitter. I am working on the R, yet I do keep myself somewhat emotionally detached so I can leave easily. Itís a waiting game while she sorts herself out; and my WW is trying to do this and looking deeper beyond just the why of the affairs and into the ďwhyĒ of how she operates so she can make changes.. Just be you when she comes to visit. Sit back, observe, and pay attention to your own feelings and thoughts.


BS (me) 44 WS (her)43
Married 17yrs, Together 20 yrs
Three children (9-13)
D-Day #1 - 4/11/09 (me).. DD's stopped, she quit talking. Body count: 6 OM, 1 OW. (2 EA's, 1 LTPA, 1 PA, 3 "kisses").

Posts: 629 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Denver
geightr
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Member # 30962
Default  Posted: 4:15 PM, March 23rd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

For those of you that talked about your WW's being immature and childish and that you had to be adults and in some cases take control (manage) of everyday matters - did any of you talk to them about this and let them know your insights? If so, did it help, hurt,or was there just ambivalence?

Posts: 38 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Florida
jjct
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Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 5:31 PM, March 23rd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

oftenwrong - Believe me, I'm more than happy to bring a smile to you *that way*. (There is life after this clustersnuck)

Merlin, I'm so pissed for you man - it's like a continuation of PISD (Post Infidelity Stress Disorder), yeah PISD, I am...
"The process" of healing I do trust, yes (if it's the man-made process of D, L's, and the court - no, I trust God there)...somehow, I think doing something for you would help - and I'm thinking strenuous...challenging. Are you working out like a banshee? Couch-to-5K'ing? Hell, even speed dating sounds like great exercise at this point!

g, the insights I shared, the things I learned here, particularly about the basic requirements for R, did nothing but cause her to melt down emotionally. Screaming at me, histrionics...I was wise enough to do it in a park, arrived in sep cars, so I could drive away from her screaming drama. It was one of the turning points for me, realizing that she had no remorse...

Remorse is the biggie imo, because that is what they are (or are not)
The other 3 basic requirements for successful R:
Transparency
Honesty
NC

My own handy-dandy definition of remorse is that it is concerned @ the damage done to others, as opposed to regret, which is sorry it got caught, and concerned about consequences/damage to themselves.

Which segues nicely to letting go of outcomes...
See, fixing "it"...
you can't.
What exactly are we trying to fix?

It sure a hell isn't the "M made me do it" - or any thing at all but something in them.

Because it was something (broken) inside them that brought us here, I say give them the tools they need to fix themselves - and observe their willingness to use them.

One big step in *letting go of outcomes* for me was realizing that despite my "fantastic fixing ability" -
I. Cannot. Fix. Her.
So I detached.
Don't
Even
Think
About
Changing
Her



Posts: 6012 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 7:41 PM, March 23rd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

For those of you that talked about your WW's being immature and childish and that you had to be adults and in some cases take control (manage) of everyday matters - did any of you talk to them about this and let them know your insights? If so, did it help, hurt,or was there just ambivalence?

Telling WW that she was acting childish and immature usually resulted in 1)insults 2)hostility 3) another brick in the wall.

The thing is she wasn't acting. She was living her life like her natural self--an adolescent. That's what took me a long time to understand. Living life like an adult wife and mother was impossible for her. All the outward features were in place but the mind and emotions hadn't caught up.

So now what? Wait for her to catch up through IC, MC, meds, books, soul-searching, prayer, etc., or bail out? That's the daily question here for many.

Do we attempt to accelerate the process through scolding, pouting, threats, or controlling? Nah!

Heed the words of that wise, old sage from Jethro Tull, Ian Anderson, and just take care of you.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
mnhttn99
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Member # 13272
Default  Posted: 9:58 PM, March 23rd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

For those of you that talked about your WW's being immature and childish and that you had to be adults and in some cases take control (manage) of everyday matters - did any of you talk to them about this and let them know your insights? If so, did it help, hurt,or was there just ambivalence?

Immaturity / selfishness is almost inherent in having an affair. If someone has the maturity to really understand how much pain an A will cause, and they still do it, then you've got a psychopath on your hands.

When the A was still going on, if I suggested she was being childish, she'd tell me that I was being bossy/controlling and that was why she was going so crazy. Post the A, she'll acknowledge she was being childish and selfish and out of control. To me, that's part of R - the WP absolutely has to come to terms with what they did and truly own up to their responsibility for it.


Posts: 220 | Registered: Jan 2007
velveteer
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Member # 30997
Default  Posted: 3:14 AM, March 24th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

G - in talking to WW I have steered away from words like childish and immature, even if that is what I think. This kind of chat would only serve to anger her and feed the drama so would be counter-productive with a foggy WS.

In our case, both WW and I arrived at the realisation that she has avoided responsibility separately before we shared this. I let her come out with it first as well. I think its better if she feels that she realised this herself through her IC. On the other hand it is also good that she sees that I have some insight to her as well - reminds her that no-one knows her better and that is part of strong bond between us that is being so tested right now.

I have told her that I don't feel she is taking full responsibility yet for her actions but don't know if this is really sinking in with her - reasoning with the foggy WS is depressing and unproductive. Its just so hard to resist it though as I'm sure eveyone knows.

I agree that childishness and immaturity are pretty much qualifying conditions for cheating. The real questions for me are is this a temporary insanity or a clear indication of WW's character (I think both right now) and can she and will she change?

Merlin - sorry to hear about your situation man - sucks big time. As for trusting the process, I don't know - I'm too early into this really, but for me I have to engage with the process - throw myself into it and be prepared both to open myself up and to look hard at what I see and hear, no matter how shitty some of that might be. It is, for me, the only way.

I like this thread - wish I'd found it sooner and jict - your pics are cool mate. Life goes on and that's good to see.

V


Divorced

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