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User Topic: Betrayed Men-Part 7
nofeelings
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Member # 31694
Default  Posted: 12:56 PM, April 3rd (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I did 180 for a few days and it brought immediate results - I was not expecting it to be that fast. I know 180 it is about me, but I think it made my WW to turn the corner. Yesterday we were supposed to go to MC together but she was late getting ready yet again - so I just left alone without telling her. She came to MC 15 minutes late and was very pissed. After MC she cried a lot and said that she does not want to be treated like that and etc. However at night we talked a little and she sobbed uncontrollably and was asking for forgiveness and not leave her. From some information i read that there is this "magic window" right after A when if WW comes around and is committed to R it makes it a lot easier to heal and R. So should I continue with 180 or try harder now to work on our M ?


ME BH 35
Her WW 32
Three young kids
D Day 3/16/11
Trying to R

Posts: 114 | Registered: Mar 2011
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 3:22 PM, April 3rd (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

reggie

Posting in a thread that has a red stop sign will cause a BS to be evicted from the Waywards section.

This is posted in the sticky thread in that section:
BS may never post on a stop sign post. Doing so will result in being removed from this forum permanently.

But after checking your thread, it had no red stop sign---so check with the mods to see what happened.

nofeelings

There is no "magic window" that I've ever heard of. People and situations are different.

Doing the 180 is not about punishing the WW. It is about you getting stronger emotionally, mentally, and physically. By doing this you are working on your M.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
jjct
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Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 8:28 PM, April 3rd (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

nofeelings, judging by how quickly she went from very pissed to uncontrollable sobbing and 'please forgive me's'...it sounds like she's trying on new personas - pushing buttons - to see what works.

What works for her is minimizing consequences to herself, thus she acts out in a desperate attempt to control outcomes - to herself. She's already proven she doesn't care about your outcomes by her cheating.

Her cluelessness is evinced by the demand to 'not be treated like that'...if being late for a counseling appt causes such dramatics, imagine what adultery would do!

The 180 is for you and your healing and finding your strong center through this betrayal. It is NOT to cause an outcome in her, NOT about you manipulating such-and-such an outcome...other than you're stronger, healing, etc.
Now, it looks good that you got her attention so far - she's getting a whiff of what life would be like w/out you, or, at the very least - how your new life is about not responding to her drama queen demands; "she didn't want to be treated like that"...what? boo effin hoo!

The 'magic window' is about the brief period of time the newly-outed WS appears willing to "give you everything" as an olive-branch, or sin offering, to "make up" for their indiscretion. It's an individual call, but I often advise BS's to seize the opportunity.
The problem is, knowing that they're incapable of remorse...well, it was tough for me, and I had a raging NPD with histrionic outbursts. (I'm obviously not the sharpest knife) It's the time it takes to really "know"...
Remorse is THE crucial element if you're considering R though. Regret is remorse's bastard cousin; they look sort of alike, but you have to differentiate. How would you feel? What would you do if you cheated and wanted to make amends? That's what remorse is.

So, if it's regret - continue 180 and healing yourself. Get stronger anyway! The emotion of things at first cloud issues, and I wouldn't want you confusing the two.
If it's remorse, well, that means you have something to work with. Best wishes.


Posts: 6027 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
reggie
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Member # 31682
Default  Posted: 9:25 PM, April 3rd (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I thinl if one does not see almost immediate remorse, the prospects of R are very dim. I know there is this"fog: theory. But ,really,what fully evolved adult does not realize, immediately, that this type of abusive trauma infliction is unjustifiable.
We do see claims that the WS comes around, eventually. But, it seems the respose is due to fear of consequences. And, really, who wants to be with someone whose motivation for treating you right and remaining faithful is due to fear or duress. I think it is incredibly damaging to one's self esteem knowing that but for consequences, you would be the fall back guy, at best.
As foar as posting on the wayward side, the other sites I have visited seem to be more tolerant of an opposing view re disclosing to the kids and telling the other BS.There was no stop sign and I was not belligerent, at all. I can't understand the ban.

Posts: 165 | Registered: Mar 2011 | From: Minnesota
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 10:47 AM, April 4th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We do see claims that the WS comes around, eventually.

Likely I take a harder line on this than most.

I dont believe in the *fog*. I believe WS either get it and realize they really fucked up or they dont. This either happens right away or it probably never will.

Sure there will likely be some defensiveness. Who wants to admit they are a horrible person? But this realization is inescapable in a person that is not a sociopath. And so coming to terms of the reality of their actions should come very quickly.

Sadly there are some WS that the *coming out of the fog* equates to the WS simply learning the right words to say. Frankly I believe that for SOME WS *coming out of the fog* is a pure and simple lie. And they never really get it at all. This IMO is done to make us shut up all ready and stop ruining their day.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3087 | Registered: Sep 2007
mkgit
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Default  Posted: 4:02 PM, April 4th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This IMO is done to make us shut up all ready and stop ruining their day.

i'm with Razor on this one. 15 months down after EA, i see regret but still haven't seen remorse and don't expect to.


Posts: 31 | Registered: Nov 2010
reggie
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Member # 31682
Default  Posted: 5:55 PM, April 4th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ever notice that more women are labeled BPD vs men NPD? I am sure my XW is NPD. Not that a label is all that important, but, I think a lot of cheating women are narccisists, and NPD is just a common in women.
Just like women sexual predators are , often, viewed merely as unstable and given light sentences, it seems there is a big barrier to calling a sociopathic or NPD as such. Seems folks are more comfortable labeling them BPD for some reason.
BTW studies show women are as violent to there partners as men. But, we seldom hear about this.

Posts: 165 | Registered: Mar 2011 | From: Minnesota
Mighty
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Member # 26909
Default  Posted: 10:32 AM, April 5th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think there are varying degree’s of waywards. The scary ones are the ones that don’t experience “the fog”. To me, the “fog” is really nothing more than a perception with intent. The intent is to seek out and find reasons that would make an affair ok, even if that means totally disregarding contrary information. It’s an intent to prove to themselves they are right. They are convinced and only notice things that support this opinion. Everything else is ignored, devalued, or twisted into supporting their opinions and justifications.

So, someone without it does this knowing damn well what the ramifications are going to be... and just don’t care. I believe those who are “foggy” also understand the ramifications, but just refuse to think about it... so it’s a internal conflict that goes unaddressed. Basically, they don’t agree with infidelity, but instead of seeing themselves that way, they spend a lot of energy making their situation “unique and special”. I love affair timelines because of this... “unique and special” looks like normal behavior when it’s all written out... It can force a new perspective on a foggy WS that the person they wrote about is them; and it’s never the pretty story they imagined in their head. They are the villain in that timeline and it becomes obvious you were the unknowing victim. (Trick; make them write about those other relationships, only touching on yours when it comes to how it affected it... the lies told, the excuses they gave you, etc. Most foggy WW like to believe that it didn’t affect their home life, so shatter that as well )

Then there’s all those in between. Some still refuse to leave the fog; the fantasy is too appealing. Sometimes D forces them to face reality, or rejection by the OP when faced with a real relationship, but by then it’s too late. Some, like mine, are just so stubborn that it takes a long time for their perception to change; you can see them fight with themselves to try and maintain the fog because they just don’t want to face that they are the bad guy. And rarely, but not unknown, are those that are immediately remorseful when they got caught, probably because they were already seeing themselves as rotten.

And something common to all liars. They will continue to say the words they don’t really mean. So remember to trust your gut, and watch the actions.


BS (me) 44 WS (her)43
Married 17yrs, Together 20 yrs
Three children (9-13)
D-Day #1 - 4/11/09 (me).. DD's stopped, she quit talking. Body count: 6 OM, 1 OW. (2 EA's, 1 LTPA, 1 PA, 3 "kisses").

Posts: 629 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Denver
64fleet
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Default  Posted: 10:38 AM, April 5th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

reggie, I've found it's best for a BS to not post in the WW area.

I think mine has come out of the fog, but the damage was done long long ago-& I think that depresses her.

[This message edited by 64fleet at 10:44 AM, April 5th (Tuesday)]


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5359 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
velveteer
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Member # 30997
Default  Posted: 3:45 AM, April 6th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hmmm - fog, regret and remorse - three biggies here.

nofeelings - consistency is what it is about I think. My WW fell apart - all over the place sobbing, full of self hatred etc etc. I was very concerned for her safety and health - was all the signs of serious depression.

Two days later - TWO DAYS!!! - and she's hauled herself back out - upped her meds and escaped into distracting activities with the kids and her friends. She is still running away.

So what is this about - it is as mighty says, the fantasy is too appealing for her, even if she knows there is no real future with OM. My WW is like mighty's - stubborn and unwilling to face up to being the bad guy - at least not with any real consistency. So she is also making this about US and not the A or OM. She is not in love with me....you all know how this one goes.

180 is the way forward.

So the fog - I think its real, but I also know that not all WSs come out of it - some need so much to protect themselves from the pain that they have caused that they will never break through it. It is simply a lack of character.


[This message edited by velveteer at 7:16 AM, April 6th (Wednesday)]


Divorced

Posts: 854 | Registered: Jan 2011
survivorman
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Default  Posted: 11:39 PM, April 6th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is partly but not fully a reply to Razor. I get your skepticism about the fog, but I agree with Mighty that it's very real. The important thing, though, is that while "the fog" can explain a lot about wayward behavior, it doesn't justify a damn thing. Anyone who uses the fog as an excuse -- "oh, you know, that's when I was in the fog, so I can't be held accountable for it" -- isn't really out of it. Some WSes -- and I'd include my WW in this category -- never come out of it.

In other words, the end of the fog is the onset of remorse. No remorse = still in the fog. As I'm going to illustrate using the subject I know best: Me. (Sorry that what follows is so long, but my self-absorption truly knows no bounds :-).

I'm not a mad hatter -- at least I don't think I fit the definition, since I wasn't married -- but at one point in my callow youth I was juggling three girlfriends on two continents. (This happened to coincide with some other major changes in my life -- an overseas move and the ugly end of a long-distance relationship.) I was deep in the fog, no question -- although of course I didn't know it at the time.

Not until afterward did I even think to put a name to it, and what I called it then was "feeling bulletproof." Which wasn't a bad turn of phrase, as it sure as hell felt like normal rules and strictures had no power to hurt me. At least for a while.

Of course, I didn't set out to be such a dog. Like many waywards, I found myself a little unmoored by big life changes, and when the opportunity arose to push on one of my boundaries, I found it immediately rewarding, and also found that the world didn't immediately come to an end. So I kept pushing, like one of those cocaine-addicted rats who'll starve themselves to death so long as they can push a lever to get their fix.

I wasn't thinking much about consequences -- hell, I was deliberately not thinking about them. I didn't put this into words at the time, but if I had, my mantra would have been something like, "Keep moving, live in the moment, don't look back." Carpe diem.

Thing was, I wasn't made of the same stuff as some of the sterner WSes. I thought I was in love with two of these women (the other was just a fun distraction), and every so often the guilt would catch up with me. It didn't help that my attempts to unwind the situation kept falling apart, mostly because I had been cashing in bigtime on my "nice guy" persona, and these women didn't want to let such a seemingly good catch go. (Oh, and of course, I was still bullshitting them.) Ultimately I ended up confessing to one, and then a few months later to the other. Much messiness ensued.

The first confession was the end of the pea-soup phase for me, but it wasn't the end of the fog, as I wanted to let the second GF "down gently." What a mistake, and it led to worse, as I both wanted to retain our previous pre-hookup friendship and to make amends for breaking her trust. Needless to say, this was a fool's errand -- and the effort didn't make GF1 -- by then my exclusive GF -- very happy, either.

All in all, a pretty horrible experience, and one that I'm only recounting now because of what it taught me about remorse and the fog. I started to write that I was actually remorseful when I confessed, since I didn't actually get busted, but on reflection that's not really true. I was maybe 80% of the way there, but I kept some foggy bullshit flowing because it made things easier on me. (For instance, I didn't let GF1 -- the one I stayed with -- know all the details of letting GF2 down "gently" until months later. And yes, those details were bad. Still she stayed. I don't know why, except that I suspect low self-esteem was a major factor. I certainly wasn't much of a prize.)

From start to finish, it must have been taken 11 months or so from confession #1 to finally get all the truth out and start healing -- at least to the extent that was possible, which wasn't very much. I also had bad karma for years afterward, as the relationship with GF1 was excruciating in many respects, yet I couldn't just break up with her because of what I'd already put her through. Also, I let xGF2 put me through the wringer for a year or two in my doomed attempt to remain "friends," which was insane on an entirely different level. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

There's more to the story, but this post is long enough already. I'd ask for absolution, but there's no one out there capable of granting it -- although I have to say I definitely feel like I've done my penance.


Me: BH; Her: Slime Mold; DS7
D-day #1 6/09; D-day #2 8/10; divorced 3/12

After what you did I can't stay on
And I'll probably feel a whole lot better
When you're gone


Posts: 489 | Registered: Sep 2010 | From: survivorman
oftenwrong
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Member # 27822
Default  Posted: 8:54 AM, April 7th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The day we realize that the vast majority of our decisions are made out of fear rather than strength, is the day clarity is forthcoming.


ME - BSO (35 yrs old)
Her - XWSO (31 yrs old)
LTR 10 years - There can be no 2nd chances


Posts: 995 | Registered: Mar 2010
lostcause111
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Member # 19109
Default  Posted: 2:00 PM, April 7th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My wife had remorse for a month before she started pursuing OM again.

I believe their are levels to anybody and it is depth of what is wrong with my wife that has stopped her from doing what needed to be done and become a real wife.

It is so far in and she has fear of confronting herself and feeling vulnerable.

By I digress because in the end my wives issues are no excuse for heractions and her ;ack of effort at creating a real marriage.

When I sit and dig too deep into what my wife is thinking I waste time just trying to make myself feel better.

I am kind of sick of excuses and I no longer care at all what her issues are.

To me it is like comparing a person who has a hit and run while drunk. They dont get a free pass because of alcoholism and neither should my wife who acts as less than a wife.

The unfortunate thing in the end is I dontcare and would not believe any change in her. It would take a long time not define her as the lying cheating ^*&&( she has shown herself to be.

her issues have nothing to do with me at all as I am a great husband. It is her disfunction and it is deep.

When it is not deep and more a bad migratory choice that is really uncharacteristic you have a MUCH better chance at recover becaus the affair is more defined by current circumstances.

When it is caused largely by issues that even predate you marriage you chances of recovery are slim to none without extensive therapy and what not that changes the core.

My wifes issues are at the core and we will never have a marriage worth shit and i am no longer willing to waste my life trying to fix someone that is broken. She can buck up and try but she never will.

She cannot face herself and that my friends is a harsher critic than I could ever be.


Posts: 934 | Registered: Apr 2008
survivorman
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Default  Posted: 6:39 PM, April 7th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LC, it's posts like yours that make me think STBWxW did me a favor by walking out. Because I think I could easily be trapped in a hellish marriage to an unremorseful WW, running like a gerbil on the wheel in hopes of figuring out how to make things work again. Now, with any luck, I could be free in the next month or so -- at a significant cost, but far less than other men here have had to bear.

And she's given me the gift of indifference as to what she ends up doing with her life. Me? I'm happier, healthier, and feel tempered by all I've been through. I have no idea what comes next, but it's got to be better than the shit sandwich of the last two years.

For what it's worth, I think my wife's issues long predate the marriage as well. I wish her luck finding a way to deal with them, and I'll do everything I can to shield my son from what I suspect she's capable of dishing up (particularly once he's an adolescent). Other than that, I'm very glad to be Done.


Me: BH; Her: Slime Mold; DS7
D-day #1 6/09; D-day #2 8/10; divorced 3/12

After what you did I can't stay on
And I'll probably feel a whole lot better
When you're gone


Posts: 489 | Registered: Sep 2010 | From: survivorman
Mr. Kite
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Default  Posted: 10:56 PM, April 7th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The harder I tried, the worse the M became. The less I gave a damn, the more appealing I became. Go figure. This type of reasoning went counter to everything I ever believed. That's why it took me so long to get there.

The trick is not to pretend but to actually stop giving a damn. Therein lies the potential fatal flaw.

Don't know how many of you are 'Seinfeld' fans but there's an episode where George realizes his life isn't working. So he decides that he'll start doing the opposite of everything.

George: Why did it all turn out like this for me? I had so much promise. I was personable, I was bright. Oh, maybe not academically speaking, but ... I was perceptive. It became very clear to me sitting out there today, that every decision I've ever made, in my entire life, has been wrong. My life is the opposite of everything I want it to be. Every instinct I have, in every area of life, be it something to wear, something to eat ... It's all been wrong."
http://www.seinfeldscripts.com/TheOpposite.htm

It's not about being an unpleasant jerk(unless that's the real you) but about being yourself. And they can either take it or leave it.

The day we realize that the vast majority of our decisions are made out of fear rather than strength, is the day clarity is forthcoming.


There you go. The most dangerous man is the one who has nothing left to lose.

Some lyrics from the Moody Blues to finish this off...

"There you go man, keep as cool as you can.
Face piles
And piles
Of trials
With smiles.
It riles them to believe
that you perceive
the web they weave
And keep on thinking free."


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
HurtingandLost
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Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 11:16 PM, April 7th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WW and I moved to another state a few months ago "to get a fresh start"....but she's doing the same shit that ruined our marriage to begin with prior to her A. And she has balked at continuing counseling, blaming me for my continued anger at the A and her "fear" of the fallout of any sessions....I must be some kind of stupid to continue to hope for any kind of meaningful change...and in the midst of it all two of our three kids have been diagnosed with ausbergers. Like I would ever leave them in her irresponsible custody....somebody beer me. I need one at this point.


holding out hope
UPDATE: Hope's Dead

Posts: 430 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: CO
survivorman
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Default  Posted: 11:47 PM, April 7th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The harder I tried, the worse the M became. The less I gave a damn, the more appealing I became. Go figure. This type of reasoning went counter to everything I ever believed. That's why it took me so long to get there.

Funny -- that's what always worked best for me in the dating game, too. I was miserable my first few years in college, because I Really Wanted a Girlfriend and worked hard at it -- not terribly successfully, as it turned out. Then I stopped trying, and good things happened.

In fact, that's sort of how I ended up with three girlfriends at once .

Anyway, we'll see how that works out once my divorce is final and I'm ready to hit the dating pool again.

Now I'm thinking in terms of my marriage -- well, specifically the false R -- and at least in part I had pulled back there, too. Our sex life was satisfying but emotionally distant, and my drinking -- which was the main way my inner selfish jerk expressed itself -- was definitely headed in a bad direction.

WW expressed her unhappiness with my drinking a few times, but always in a sort of passive way -- at least until she began losing her temper at me. And for whatever reason I just couldn't take her seriously when she yelled. I remember thinking of her outbursts the same way I thought of our 6yo's temper tantrums -- i.e., "when you can come back and talk to me nicely, I'll listen to you." Of course I didn't say that; I just tuned her out. Because -- or so it seems to me right this moment -- I just wasn't ready to deal with her crap.

Not long thereafter, she announced it was over and that she was leaving. Was my drinking at fault? Partially, I guess -- it was certainly a problem (one that I've since addressed; sober almost seven months). But it's always struck me as a problem we could have solved together, and thus not really the big issue that really split us apart. For that, I keep going back to whatever it was she broke during her EA that she never had much interest in fixing.

Whatever that was.


Me: BH; Her: Slime Mold; DS7
D-day #1 6/09; D-day #2 8/10; divorced 3/12

After what you did I can't stay on
And I'll probably feel a whole lot better
When you're gone


Posts: 489 | Registered: Sep 2010 | From: survivorman
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 7:23 AM, April 8th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WW and I moved to another state a few months ago "to get a fresh start"

In AA and NA parlance we would call that a "geographical." Unfortunately, wherever you go, there you are.

and in the midst of it all two of our three kids have been diagnosed with ausbergers

That's a tough one, H and L. God bless you for putting them first.

sober almost seven months

Congrats, Survivorman. One of the mantras in AA was to avoid all relationships and any major decisions until after 1 year of sobriety. My sponsor should have insisted I wait ten years.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
Between a Rock
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Member # 30871
Default  Posted: 11:07 AM, April 11th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WW suggesting I go have an A...

Anyone else ever have this situation? I'm heading down the path to D with a WW who I can honestly say is both regretful and remorseful (A appears to be just a dealbreaker for me). We are still living together and talk a lot about the next steps as we have 3 small children and I'd like to minimize the impact on them as much as possible.

The other night during one of our talks she says that I should go have an affair. I'd being lying if I said I haven't thought about going and having sex with other woman but hell those thoughts were there before I found out about her affairs, I just would never act on them. In my head it feels like she wants me to go have an affair to in some way minimize or excuse what she has done.

Don't worry it isn't going to happen. There is no need for me to lower myself to that level. Just wanted to get your thoughts.

Thanks


But you, you’ve gone too far this time
You have neither reason nor rhyme
With which to take this soul that is so rightfully mine

Posts: 48 | Registered: Jan 2011
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 11:54 AM, April 11th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WW suggesting I go have an A...
Anyone else ever have this situation?

Yes. In the first few weeks of hysteria following D-day 1, WW suggested this and even said she would talk a friend of hers into it.

Her logic(or rather lack of it) implied that I would then be more merciful to her. In the short run that may have been true but in the long run, lowering ourselves to the moral code of others, is not the answer. My relationship with my son would have been affected because I would have had something to hide, and my integrity as a man would have taken a serious hit. No thanks!


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
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