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User Topic: Betrayed Men-Part 7
wincing_at_light
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Default  Posted: 6:51 AM, January 14th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You're not that far off the mark, Proview. The woman who wrote the "Women's Infidelity" books (don't remember her name) posits that exact notion from her extensive interviews with WW's.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
SourCherryDrops
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Default  Posted: 6:59 AM, January 14th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

well well well, whoda thunk it. A bunch of guys sitting round talking...of allthings the zodiac and astrology....

still on the upside apparently i am now a Ophiuchus, and since thats been abondoned and is not included in published astrology guides, well i dont need to waste any more of my time looking at them..... wasted enough already with STBXWW.

One thing i am really struggle with at the moment is the almost certain probability that my kids ( who are still realatively young ) are going to pick up and emulate much of my WW's behaviours.

In particular i have the feeling that at the moment she is still telling me lies, or at least ommiting to tell me things she said she would, even though now its not going to change anything. I guess i should expect it, after all if she didnt have the strength of character to tell the truth prior to DDay or during R, then why should i expect her to be honest now right?

How can i expect my children to grow up to be honest, if much of their childhood their mother sets a contrary example?

Argh, i dont want to vilify her, and imprint my own issues onto my kids, but damn. Sometimes i really wish id get a phone call asking me to come identify my WW at the morgue...


Me BS 37, Her STBX 34, 1*ONS, 1*EA 1*PA/EA, 2*PA
Heading for D after 9 mths of R

Posts: 1468 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Europe
wincing_at_light
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Default  Posted: 7:02 AM, January 14th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

On the other hand, what is the incentive for a WW to change? In most cases, what does she have to lose? I know that in my state the law doesn't give a damn if I D my WW because of the fact she cheated. She'll still get the house, the kids, half my paycheck, etc.

I think this is part of it, Captain Tal, but there's also something to the fact that we have a narrative in Western society for how fallen men can regain their honor after betrayal/treason/infidelity. Men have a path of self-abrogation and hard work without expectation of success that they can follow to achieve redemption. We have a set of symbolic indicators for remorse that are universally understood as pursuing justice for the injustices you have done to an innocent party.

Women don't have the same markers. They're expected to be pursued. They're supposed to be the keepers of relationship lore and fidelity.

They don't have a narrative by which they can achieve redemption, which means that they've both got no guideposts to lead them, and they might end up speaking a language of redemption that we don't have the filters to read, so it's bound to be a journey more fraught with missteps due to miscommunication and user error than the man's journey, where errors happen because he's fucking them up and actively making the wrong choices (because he *has* guideposts to follow).

I really think this is why so many WW/BH marriages fail. Since men have a narrative for redemption, when he hits those marks and demonstrates remorse appropriately, women have been given clues about the content of his internal landscape. They can say "that's what remorse striving for redemption looks like" and have some faith that it's an accurate view (because what she's seeing matches the tropes our culture have taught her to see).

Men don't have that. Fallen women go into the nunnery, commit suicide or just keep falling until consumption or some other blighty disease takes them. We don't have a model for what female remorse should look like, what marks she should hit...which subsequently means that we can't rely on what we're seeing to reflect anything. We're making guesses about her guesses, and we don't get the same sort of cultural reinforcement that action x means interior state y.

Though the most you're likely to hear about this from your WW is complaints that the marriage is messed up now and you're falling down on the job because you're not pursuing her and trying to make it all better, because that's what women have been trained to expect when they're in emotional turmoil or feeling isolated -- the man in her life is supposed to pursue because he's probably the one who fucked it up in the first place.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
jjct
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Default  Posted: 7:27 AM, January 14th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I came here to post something for "perspective", and bang into one of wal's signature insights. Wow. That's damn deep.
A great analysis - hm, more an indictment of the difficult cultural dynamic unique to betrayed men...
Excellent stuff. There's alot of snark regarding that out there on the nets. Googling 'anti misandry', 'hypergamy', 'AMC', 'misogyny', and such I admit...is a guilty pleasure of mine. I do look forward to more discussion from you guys on this...

"BUT"

The "perspective" thing:
(proof there's no thread-jerkin here, if ever there was! lol)

I got yer 'cultural difference' right here!

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=390321

I'm pretty much at a loss about how to help this lady. Her sitch sounds like a mix between a Nic Cage/arms-dealer suspense thriller and a freakin nightmare!
Maybe some of you military guys will get this better, and be able to help somehow. All I know, is I found myself shaking the more I read.
(didn't stop me from posting a lame attempt though!)


Posts: 6005 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
IMARRIEDAJACKYL
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Default  Posted: 7:54 AM, January 14th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow... Deep stuff, fellas.

Is it at all possible that we just married lying whores? I don't want to psychoanalyzeThe Jackyl.... I want to forget her.

As for the post about identifying the body at the morgue.... I would prefer to watch her suffer.

The only problem is... My kids would have to watch her suffer, too.... And that would hurt me.

I blame myself for not leaving the bitch years ago.... But she lied and lied and lied and lied and lied.... And I thought she was my friend. That was also a lie.

How do I ever trust a woman again? That's the real question I want answers to. I could give a shit about what went on in The Jackyl's mind.

Any thoughts there, guys?


BS (Me) 40
The Jackyl (Her) 43
Married 12 years
Divorced - March 22, 2011
Son (11)
Daughter (9)

"I still miss her... I guess I just have to improve my aim!"


Posts: 389 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: NJ
aesir
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Default  Posted: 8:28 AM, January 14th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How do I ever trust a woman again?
Cautiously, with time and a track record. No more blind trust I am afraid.

The woman who wrote the "Women's Infidelity" books (don't remember her name) posits that exact notion from her extensive interviews with WW's.
w_a_l I would be careful about reading much into anything from the Women's Infidelity" books. The closest she got to remorse for her cheating was in investigating why women cheat. She used what she found to justify what she had done. The only thing of value I learned from them was that you can get a good idea of where their head is at from the blowjob/intercourse ratio. What little advice she had about actually ending and recovering from an affair was a superficial understanding of the very basic principles that could be found in an hour of quality time with google, and I have no reason to believe that the rest of her work is not of similar quality.

The part about blowjobs being the female equivalent of a cheating husband giving flowers seemed pretty accurate though. I think she understands the behaviours, but not the psychology.

I think WW's psychology is better understood by this quote from John Updike (also used in As Good As It Gets by Jack Nicholson)

“How do you write women so well? I think of a man and I take away reason and accountability.”


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
HurtingandLost
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Default  Posted: 8:28 AM, January 14th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Proview / WAL - You both hit on a key to the adultery and path to redemption. In a nuttshell, the upfront fuckery is the entitlement. Both my previous MIL and my current MIL taught their little fucking princesses that they could do whatever they wanted without repurcussion. No impulse control. No boundaries. And I'm stupid becuase I fell for the lies and the disguise both times with both women.

Whereas, in my upbringinging, the only thing I've ever been "entitled" to is to be glad I was an American. "Now get off your ass and earn that right!"

@ SCD and IMAC -

Fatherhood definitely makes these situations clear as mud. I've found myself close to the door three or four times now, but here's an example of why I cant see leaving just yet.

I just moved out of state two weeks ago. I'm leaving in a couple hours to go pick up the family and drive them out here. In the two weeks since I left, the kids are smart mouthing everyone, talking back, yelling, screaming, hitting, kicking, fighting, and generally acting like a bunch of little assholes....JUST LIKE HER AND HER MOTHER!!!!!!

When they are around me, they act respectful, play nice, dont talk back, and help around the house with little things (they are 5, 3, and 2). We wrestle and play and read books and watch movies. They listen, and lifes great....until the WW or the MIL come over....

And that is one of the reasons (aside from the WW finally going to counseling) that I'm staying. Becuase I'll be a double goddamned sonofabitch if my kids are left to turn out like THEM.


holding out hope
UPDATE: Hope's Dead

Posts: 430 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: CO
Jimi40
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Default  Posted: 8:31 AM, January 14th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

IMJ, trust is a funny thing. It's earned yes, but, it's also kinda like being arrested; you know, innoscent until proven guilty.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is, that you're just going to trust someone you are "falling" for. It's just going to be.


You've got nowhere to fall, when your back's to the wall.

Posts: 5524 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Niagara
Mr. Kite
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Default  Posted: 8:36 AM, January 14th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

how fallen men can regain their honor after betrayal/treason/infidelity

I understand what you're saying in your post WAL but the part about losing our honor eludes me. Honor is based on integrity, keeping our word, reputation, etc. We've done nothing to lose that. It's the betrayer who's lost their honor and needs to regain it. What we've lost is the ability to trust. Which leads me to IMAJ's post.

How do I ever trust a woman again? That's the real question I want answers to.

Trust should begin with a clean slate with each of our fellow human beings we meet. Each lie and betrayal eats away at that trust and can never totally be regained for that person. There are just as many women who are honest and have integrity as there are men. There are just as many men who have no sense of honor as women. We take each person individually. At least that's what fairness would dictate.

I could give a shit about what went on in The Jackyl's mind.

I like answers to questions and closure. Some of us men are puzzle and problem solvers. Unfortunately for me, WW like Newman, is an enigma wrapped in a twinkie.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
Jimi40
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Default  Posted: 8:50 AM, January 14th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I will need you boys to surround me, like a human shield here.

I think our problem is very basic, and we need to get back to basics;

We let our women have too much freedom. Chained to the stove, with enough chain to reach the bed, boys, that's the answer!


You've got nowhere to fall, when your back's to the wall.

Posts: 5524 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Niagara
HurtingandLost
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Default  Posted: 9:03 AM, January 14th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Damn Jimi, I agree....however, I think we're gonna get smacked hard by the MODS in less than 10 mins....


holding out hope
UPDATE: Hope's Dead

Posts: 430 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: CO
wincing_at_light
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Default  Posted: 9:06 AM, January 14th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

w_a_l I would be careful about reading much into anything from the Women's Infidelity" books. The closest she got to remorse for her cheating was in investigating why women cheat.

Oh, I agree with this assessment completely. They're useful as tools for insight into the mind of a cheating wife, how one justifies, the assumption set behind their infidelity, etc. You can get similar insights by reading the countless boards dedicated to OW (many of whom are also married women).

Definitely not recovery books, but useful for what they are if you accept the books on their own terms, and I probably wouldn't recommend them to a newbie BH. I thought the author actually did a pretty good job of identifying where WW thinking is fucked up and some of the ways in which it gets fucked up from cultural memes, but sometimes you had to read between the lines to get it.

But given that we're pretty rational and reasonable folk, I think we've probably all got the tools to parse out the useful stuff from the bullshit.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
64fleet
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Default  Posted: 9:19 AM, January 14th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm a Pisces, rub my feet & I'll be asleep in seconds.

Funny, my dad retired to Egypt, & he's happier than I have ever known. His W has to walk a few steps behind him & cover her head at all times in public-she doesn't have to wear a burqa, but must cover her hair.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5359 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
StillGoing
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Default  Posted: 9:27 AM, January 14th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I understand what you're saying in your post WAL but the part about losing our honor eludes me. Honor is based on integrity, keeping our word, reputation, etc. We've done nothing to lose that. It's the betrayer who's lost their honor and needs to regain it.

I think wal meant WH's, not BH's; as in, when a guy fucks up there's a clear road on how to fix it, since it's been common knowledge that men cheat since Odin gave us dicks, but women cheating just started yesterday according to society so there's not clear road on how to redeem themselves.

Of course, the reverse is true as well so far as I can see it. It's expected for a woman to try to fix the M because dicks have a wandering eye but if it's the gal who cheated, well, either she's an irredeemable slut or there's something wrong with the H. Being stuck in the middle ground there where you've got a wife who is apparently trying desperately and earnestly to fix things is just so outside the norm it slides one way or the other for people on the outside.

I am probably being overly cynical, having a shitty day topped off with a sinus infection.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7101 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
Mr. Kite
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Default  Posted: 9:32 AM, January 14th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Funny, my dad retired to Egypt, & he's happier than I have ever known. His W has to walk a few steps behind him & cover her head at all times in public-she doesn't have to wear a burqa, but must cover her hair.

Which brings us to the subject of a movie I watched recently. The remake of the Stepford Wives(the original was much better imo). But this one had Christopher Walken who is always superb in his creepiness. so it's a toss-up.

Here's the choice:
a) a Stepford wife
b) one with free will

The betrayed Neanderthal on my left shoulder is grunting to pick (a) and to ignore the voice of the sissy on my right shoulder, but my conscious picks (b). How about you?

Edit: Got your point, StillGoing. Thanks for the explanation. Btw who's this Odin dude you speak of?

[This message edited by Mr. Kite at 9:34 AM, January 14th (Friday)]


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
jasper
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Default  Posted: 9:45 AM, January 14th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

because that's what women have been trained to expect when they're in emotional turmoil or feeling isolated -- the man in her life is supposed to pursue because he's probably the one who fucked it up in the first place.

This is an attitude I'm having trouble dealing with in my bumpy journey into R. I won't lie, the "wooing" is pretty fun. I like doing it, and I like the fact that it really helps me feel like this is a new start. And not the old, fucked-up relationship we had before her A.

I guess what bugs me is the fact that she seems to need me to pursue her. Regardless of whether I'm enjoying it or not, she definitely needs to be pursued, even though she's the one who fucked up.

Struggling to figure out exactly what the trigger is, but, every once in a while, I suddenly stop enjoying the pursuit/dating/wooing, and start to resent it. I just can't put my finger on what it is that causes the sudden change in direction for me.


Posts: 696 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: New York
wincing_at_light
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Default  Posted: 9:50 AM, January 14th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I understand what you're saying in your post WAL but the part about losing our honor eludes me. Honor is based on integrity, keeping our word, reputation, etc. We've done nothing to lose that. It's the betrayer who's lost their honor and needs to regain it. What we've lost is the ability to trust. Which leads me to IMAJ's post.

You're misunderstanding. I'm not saying that we've lost our honor. I'm saying men who become WH's have a path for regaining their honor and integrity (usually involving tons of selfless sacrifice -- think of it as the war movie coward who gets a grip on his courage late and then throws himself on a grenade to save his fellows) that is fairly well demarcated.

In essence, the man's journey is striving without fail for a redemption he never expects to attain. It's in the selfless striving that redemption is granted (often posthumously, and definitely externally). The key here, though, is that he dedicates the rest of his life to amends and redemption.

An example of this sort of redemptive transformation is Scrooge, right? A right old bastard who lives selfishly and solely for himself who manifests his life-changing insight about Xmas not just on the first day with the provision of the Xmas goose for the Cratchits, but we're told he's completely transformed after that as a do-er of good works.

This is another big point for me. I grew up in church, you know? My dad was a pastor. One of the frequent come-to-Jesus dynamics we would see involved people who were in one trouble or another getting "saved" and expecting to have their slate wiped clean and have Jesus save them from their shitty lives. And as soon as whatever life storm had passed, they were right down there in the muck again creating the same sorts of problems they were in before.

On the other hand, you had people who had true salvation experiences...and you always, without fail, recognized their experience as authentic because from day one, their entire lives changed. They became a completely new and different person because they were cognizant of the sins they had committed and what they had been saved from. Their thought patterns changed, their habits changed, the life they led changed irrevocably.

To me, that perfectly illustrates the difference between regret and remorse. Regret says "my decisions turned out badly; I need help getting out of these circumstances I got myself into". Remorse says, "I make the wrong decisions; I need to change my entire life so those sorts of decisions aren't attractive to me anymore."

The remorseful road to redemption for WH's is, as I said, fairly well demarcated. He devotes himself to his wife and family, puts his job and other formerly-important things second, amends his behavior to exclude destructive habits, etc. He devotes himself to striving for forgiveness...and most importantly, he does not waver and does not fail. Redemption is in the striving.

Women who strive for forgiveness with no expectation of ever achieving redemption are called "abused" or told they're involved in unhealthy power dynamics or simply unappreciated and their husband is a black-souled asshole.

Hells, even Hester Prynne in The Scarlet Letter didn't need redemption. The whole point of that narrative was that society judged her unfairly and she just needed to find her inner glow to know she was okay. Dimmesdale was carving glyphs into his chest and (literally) wasting away and ultimately dying to achieve redemption for his hidden sin. Hester was being unfairly charged and ostracized for just being herself and yearning to have her womanly needs filled in the hard environment in which life had placed her (absent, sea-going, inattentive husband, social prudery from the puritanical settlers, etc.)

Her redemptive path was "Fuck 'em if they can't open their minds and see your worth."

Hester is redeemed by discovering her inner awesome. Dimmesdale is redeemed by sacrificing his life to regain his integrity (and torturing himself all the while in the meantime).

For what it's worth, I can't tell if Hawthorne was, even then, participating in the trope or pointing out the inherent discrepancy in redemptive paths.

(There are other nuances in that story, many of which are illustrative and useful here, but I don't feel like parsing them out this morning.)

Instead of a redemptive narrative for women, what we're told is that they don't *need* to be redeemed. They've already disconnected from the marriage that wasn't meeting their needs. Return to the loveless/lifeless marriage and either change your husband to become the man you want him to be or accept that you had your great love affair, it's over, and cherish it in your heart until you die while doing the best you can with the husband you're stuck with. (Bridges of Madison County, anyone?)

The wayward man's narrative is about changing himself to emulate the characteristics he desires to possess (integrity, honor, etc.) The closest narrative a wayward woman has is learning to accept and honor herself as a whole and worthwhile human being (part of being human is making mistakes and learning from them, right-o!), while changing her marriage environment to make something better, stronger, closer than ever.

I'm not saying there's necessarily anything wrong with the woman's narrative, just that it's fundamentally different. The WH's narrative is that he failed because he's fundamentally weak, so he is empowered to strengthen himself or to strive for redemption in spite of his weakness. The WW's narrative is that she was blind to her true worth and just needs to remove the blinders so that she can see it. That's a pretty goddamned significant theme, if you ask me.

(I happen to think it's also pretty insulting to womens' intelligence and moral capacity, but, hey, I'm not the one making the tropes. I'm just pointing them out.)

I think I'm just rambling now when all I really wanted to do was confirm that I wasn't talking about BH's finding redemption, but WH's.

As a complete aside: If you want to know the utter and complete truth, there is no redemption for a BH. We don't need to be redeemed. I don't know about you, but I liked myself just fine before my wife's infidelity. I did not once look at myself after D-day and think in even the smallest voice I deserved this. I know I'm crappy at x, y and z. If I'd been a better this or that, this wouldn't have happened.

Listen to me here: I didn't learn one new lesson of worth in recovering from infidelity. None. It's just wasted years and bullshit while you re-discover things you already knew about how strong, capable, and worthwhile you are. You get your feet back under you and the only thing you regret is all the time, effort and energy you wasted getting back to knowing what you already knew.

It's all bullshit. There's no grand purpose, no hand of God, nothing you're ever going to look back at and go "Oh, I see what God was doing in my life there. It was all so totally worth it!!!" Just years and tears spent to no useful purpose. Our battle is to make sure we don't *lose* the good that's already resident in us: the ability to love, to trust, to feel, to know and be known authentically.

Our work as BH's is about fighting to a stalemate so the war waged against us doesn't take anything away or transmogrify us into something less than we were before.

I mean, unless you were a complete asshat before your wife cheated, then you might have a different experience.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
jasper
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Default  Posted: 10:12 AM, January 14th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Holy fuck, WAL. That's a lot to digest.

Posts: 696 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: New York
wincing_at_light
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Default  Posted: 10:15 AM, January 14th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's probably also mostly bullshit, so try not to hold that against me.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Proview
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Default  Posted: 9:31 PM, January 14th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I really think this is why so many WW/BH marriages fail. Since men have a narrative for redemption, when he hits those marks and demonstrates remorse appropriately, women have been given clues about the content of his internal landscape. They can say "that's what remorse striving for redemption looks like" and have some faith that it's an accurate view (because what she's seeing matches the tropes our culture have taught her to see).

Men don't have that. Fallen women go into the nunnery, commit suicide or just keep falling until consumption or some other blighty disease takes them. We don't have a model for what female remorse should look like, what marks she should hit...which subsequently means that we can't rely on what we're seeing to reflect anything. We're making guesses about her guesses, and we don't get the same sort of cultural reinforcement that action x means interior state y.


Just that last statement makes me go WOW....I wish it were that easy. Because when I deal with females whether in my family, in my command, or simple interaction...it is always a guesing game as to how action X indicates interior feeling Y. There is no simplicity in their emotion and therefore it seems to always be in constant flux. Men (generalization here) are much more simpler. Thats why IMHO women should try to play the "game" like men even with equality in todays society, some cultural stigma still apply bc they just do. We are yang to their yen. halves of the same whole with a little bit of each other inside (see yen/yang symbol)but nevertheless each designed/made/created to do his /her own thing.


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