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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men-Part 7
wincing_at_light
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Default  Posted: 4:55 AM, April 15th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Now, don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying that actually have the condoned affair. I'm just saying that you take this particular manipulation trick off the table by accepting the offer in such a way that you've taken the outcome out of her control.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Jimi40
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Default  Posted: 5:06 AM, April 15th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Or, in cowboy terms, take her fucking shit, and throw back at her in spades!


You've got nowhere to fall, when your back's to the wall.

Posts: 5524 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Niagara
resigned
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Default  Posted: 1:10 PM, April 15th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But WAL, what if she agrees with your conditions.

I can hear it now..."fine."

And then whatever conscience she has is clear. She thinks the matter is concluded. She's not thinking about it at the depth you imagine. She'll see it as a way to escape whatever feelings of guilt she may have.


Posts: 453 | Registered: Dec 2006
jjct
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Default  Posted: 7:06 PM, April 15th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

resigned, i hate this fukking shit. i hate all of it. the fact we got to be here in the first place?

Let's PLAY "her conscience" game.
First..does she even have one?
Ok
lets say she does have a similitude...
I say
let HER suffer her OWN conscientiousness's stinging fukin barbs FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE. It was her choice, right? I got nuthin to do with that.

(examine your OWN conscience to see what that would feel like if the foo was on the other shit)

I'm suggesting detaching from her stupid stupid choices.

Next.

She got no conscience?
That oughta be easy.


Posts: 6032 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
wincing_at_light
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Default  Posted: 7:51 PM, April 15th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

resigned,

To your point, that's why I included this line:

If you want to put it on the table, then I accept your proposition. And one day, long after we've put your affair to bed, then maybe I'll take you up on it.

"Long after we've put your affair to bed" means that we're still going to hash this out, the discussions are going to be had, the books read, the therapies attended (if that's your bag). It's explicitly saying, "I'm not letting you off the hook here. I'm accepting your offer as an attempt to make some form of amends by giving me equal compensation rather than as the manipulation attempt we both know it is. But in the meantime, you're still going to face the consequences for your actions."

Look, I'm not suggesting at all that even a condoned revenge affair is going to help anybody. It's not. Most of us have the urge to go out and get it. That urge lessens with time. In theory, with this card in your back pocket, by the time you're ready to use it, you're healed enough that you don't have the desire to use it.

That's what I mean about taking this whole tangent completely off the table. You recognize it as a tangent, accept it, then get back down to the real work.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
resigned
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Default  Posted: 7:44 AM, April 16th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I hear what you're saying.
The problem is then getting down to the real work.

I know my FWW would consider it a quid pro quo. What real work. We just agreed upon the remedy.

I'm more of the opinion that I don't need her consent for anything. We don't have a deal about my future affair. That's a get out of jail free card.

Now, let's talk about what you've done. We can talk about whatever I do after I do it.

I think we're saying the same thing. It's just semantics and how my FWW would process the conversation.

[This message edited by resigned at 7:50 AM, April 16th (Saturday)]


Posts: 453 | Registered: Dec 2006
reggie
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Default  Posted: 9:34 AM, April 16th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How about a counter offer to the affair pass?
Here is one I suggest. You quantify the number of times she got laid, multiply it by the going cost of a hooker in your region.

Add in any costs asssociated with the affair. Be creative in this, the going rate for babysitting whiile you subsidized the affair, the cost of her outfits and the entertainment, the cost of counseling post discovery and meds, if needed etc.

Now, there is the need for a slush fund , for periodic polygraphs and PI hires in the future.
She agrees to a massive,rapid weight loss, regardless of her current weight and agrees to get by on 2-3 hours of sleep for a year.
Not having to sleep enables her to find additional employment , to pay off the above quantified debt.
Then, when the $$ are amassed, you and the kids use it at your discretion, maybe a vacation(s) or Harleys or whatever. She does not participate in the use of the $$ , as she already had her fun.
You use the restitution in a morally acceptable way, so you still do not sink to her level and compromise your integrity.

[This message edited by reggie at 9:35 AM, April 16th (Saturday)]


Posts: 165 | Registered: Mar 2011 | From: Minnesota
Mr. Kite
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Default  Posted: 11:00 AM, April 16th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Damages for emotional affliction are sometimes assessed in civil law cases.

True story. A few months after D-day 1, WW asked what it would take to make me feel better. Immediately out of my mouth came "$5,000." Still don't know where that figure came from. She paid up. Did it make me feel better? Short term: yes. Long term: hell no.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
wincing_at_light
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Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, April 16th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So here's the thing you should know about me (and in general, about the advice I give -- it's the grain of salt you should measure everything I say against):

I believe that most of the damage incurred by the BS happens *after* D-day. D-day is a shock to the system. Everything after that which isn't remorse, amends, etc., is abuse. Some of it is unintentional, some is a byproduct of stupidity and fog, some of it is the learning curve of an unhealthy, selfish person trying to get healthy.

Nevertheless, it is damage. Damage that tries to get spread around. The tendency of BS's trying to save their marriage is to absorb that damage and try to come to terms with it in a way that will increase the chances that the marriage survives.

I think that's a mistake and that it leads to long-term resentments. Instead, my answers and advice are formulated on the proposition that the BS's main responsibility to themselves is to minimize the damage they incur in the process of deciding whether or not they're going to keep the relationship.

I view R, especially the first 12-18 months as an adversarial process rather than teamwork. I believe that in most cases and despite what the WS says or believes about themselves, they're going to try to spread the blame for the A. They're angling to get the BS t buy in to their blameshifting.

And rather than disagree and hold your tongue until the WS de-fogs or gets more healthy, or even agreeing to disagree, my baseline is that the BS needs to actively resist any attempt to inflict additional damage by finding ways to turn that damage back on the abuser.

My wife and I had a discussion about my earlier post. She pointed out that the problem with that technique was that by accepting the condoned A option, the BS then feeds the underlying insecurity of the WS that contributed to the A in the first place. It erodes their trust in the BS's faithfulness and commitment.

I replied that from my perspective, that then puts the WS and BS on equal footing. It means not just the BS has to ask themselves, "If I put myself out there, will this happen again?"

To me, that's the way to get empathy, because we're now both going through the same process and weighing the same fear of re-committing. It also means that the WS doesn't get to feel safe and secure, taking the BS's commitment for granted, while the BS is stuck being filled with doubt.

That feels just to me. It feels appropriate.

It also carries the very big risk that the marriage will be destroyed or the WS will end up shattered beyond repair, unwilling or unable to cope with their own insecurities and demons because of the paralyzing fear of abandonment.

All I know is that sitting by quietly and incurring damage while my WS got her head straight did not work for me. It tried to break me in precisely the same ways that she was broken.

And so I reached the conclusion that if anyone was going to end up damaged and broken as a result of this process, this madness, it was not going to be me. I had been targeted for enough damage, and my primary responsibility was to make myself safe. If I have to pick between me and the marriage, I pick me. If I have to pick between my health and happiness and yours, I pick mine.

It's not tenable over the long term of a relationship (as most of us know, because our WS doing precisely that -- picking themselves over us -- is how we ended up here in the first place.) But in that vital 12-18 month window after D-day, it strikes me as the best plan for personal recovery in the same way that you would protect yourself from a flailing drowner who will try to take you down with them in their desperation.

So that's my caution to anyone who reads my advice. You need to understand that it's not a teamwork approach, and it's not aimed at getting your WS healthy so you can get the love you deserve. It's about protecting yourself first and foremost, repelling toxicity and making sure that your own better nature, memories of love or whatever else don't get you dragged down with the drowner.

Therefore, it may or may not apply to your individual circumstances.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Finallyatpeace
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Default  Posted: 2:04 PM, April 16th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WAL, very interesting post. Rather than this being an individual approach I think you've painted with a pretty broad brush.

You've encapsulated the key points of the 180

my baseline is that the BS needs to actively resist any attempt to inflict additional damage

The desire for an RA

the WS doesn't get to feel safe and secure, taking the BS's commitment for granted, while the BS is stuck being filled with doubt

The fact most Waywards believe there will be no negative consequences to their behaviour.

Finally and perhaps most importantly

If I have to pick between my health and happiness and yours, I pick mine

I haven't been on these boards as long as you have, but that's something I haven't heard enough of. Lots of talk about betrayed's not falling into a victim mentality but very little of how the Betrayed should be using their position to attempt or afford positive change.


Posts: 59 | Registered: Sep 2010
reggie
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Default  Posted: 2:22 PM, April 16th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am all for leveraging this assautl by a cheating spouse to one's advantage. It need not only apply to situations where the BS stays in the relationship. I have used it post divorce, as well.
Here is an example. The terms of my divorce give me freedom to chhose when I am not available for taking the kids for the weekend. All that is required is that I give 48 hours notice. I have ataken advantage of this many times over the last few years.
After , finally, turning the corner on the financial ruin my NPD superspender XW put me in, I had the resources for travel and entertainment. I have many friends who travel to play golf.

I could, essentially, be gone every other weekend, it seems to some nice , warm location, if I accepted all the invitations I receive.

So, when I feel like going, I do, and I have absolutely no concern that it interferes with my XW's plans or puts more of a burden on her.

I feel I subsidized her affairs for years and now it is my turn to be sellfish. She can do nothing about it.

My only concern is that if I did it too much, my kids would forget me. So, I make it up to them by having them during the week, one at a time, sometimes, which, with the some of them remainng with her, still keeps her from travelling or going out.

Vindictive, I guees. But , I rationalize that I was terribly traumatized and require frequent vacations, now, in order to recover from the PTSD, and other damage she inflicted.

My kids nned me healthy and able to earn good $$. So, if I need resptes to enable me to provide for them I take them.

and, I agree with WAL. One must first take care of oneself after suffering this huge trauma/abuse. We know our WWs are not concerned withour welfare. And our kids need us healthy.


Posts: 165 | Registered: Mar 2011 | From: Minnesota
StillGoing
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Default  Posted: 2:34 PM, April 16th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If you want to put it on the table, then I accept your proposition. And one day, long after we've put your affair to bed, then maybe I'll take you up on it.

I'm not understanding the point of this unless the hope of R is dead. It just undermines it from the other side and destroys the BS integrity by basically saying "Okay, I'm gonna jump in that boat and paddle around" without having to actually get the fun part out of it.

I think a notarized, lawyer-chewed post-nup would do what you want a lot better here without all the game playing. Yeah, it's exceptionally stupid of the WS to put that shit out there. Responding in kind just seems like wasted energy if you're trying to R.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7119 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
wincing_at_light
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Default  Posted: 5:18 PM, April 16th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I only see it as counter-productive if you actually do take her up on the offer one day.

Short of that, I find a deep and satisfying justice in the WS's experience of the ongoing relationship being just as fraught with with risk and insecurity as that of the BS. If I have to find a way to live with that and an answer that allows me to keep going, then it's fair that my WS bears the same burden. I've seen entirely too many posts on SI that essentially say, "Why can't my dumbass BS see that I'm doing the right things and am completely safe *now*?"

(Aside: my wife and I had a talk just the other day over someone's post about the BS's "inability" to trust or uncertain of the WS's love when the WS has been doing the "right things" for two whole months or whatever. Here's how I look at that: let's say that for a period of about two years, I decided to start poisoning my wife because I convinced myself that she was the source of all my unhappiness. So every morning, I'd put a bit of arsenic in her coffee. After that two years, I suddenly realized the error of my ways, started working out my shit, suddenly realized that she was this wonderful person who had always been wonderful, and I'd just been an asshole. How likely would she be to believe me when I said "but I loved you the whole time I was poisoning you, I want you to know that"? How likely would she be to accept the next cup of coffee I made for her? What sorts of stories would she have to tell herself to rectify all of that with love? Or would she say, "You know what, I'll make the coffee from now on.")

A post-nup might be just as effective, but I've only very rarely seen a WW offer a post-nup. That seems much more often a tool used to keep WH's in line. (I assume because generally a WW is going to get enough back in alimony and CS from mandatory state formulas that the benefit of most post-nups for a BH is going to be neutralized.)

But I'm also leaving out a significant point, which I also left out from my post above. My primary concern in the aftermath of infidelity is the BS's recovery. I think the BS's obligation is to do whatever it takes to heal themselves. Saving the marriage should be a distant second, a cherry on top of personal recovery.

After D-day, I was done sacrificing me for the sake of the marriage. I'd been sacrificed enough, and if that wasn't sufficient to continue the marriage, then it was never going to be enough.

But, again, a bunch of this goes to attitude and delivery. If your WW makes the offer of a condoned A because on some deep, core level, she understands the unfairness and is stating that she's willing to endure what she's done to you to heal that seed of resentment, then I think you approach the situation completely differently. That's when you pull out the whole "I will never hurt you that way/I love you/we'll get through this together" stuff.

If she's doing it just to shut you up (which is much more common from what I've seen), that's when you go aggro on her.

I don't know. Maybe you guys have a great deal more patience than I do. Some people are more effective at loving their spouse out of error and sucking it up until their wife comes around. I'm not built that way. I'm not built to always take the high road and be content with how that reflects on me no matter how many times I get screwed over. That's a deeply unsatisfying narrative for me, as is "I held our marriage together through my strength, understanding and limitless love while you were trying to burn it down."

To me, that sort of thing just teaches people where the line for how much they fuck with you before you're done is.

I get that not everyone can live that way. I understand that and even appreciate it. Some people need to be either all in or all done, and that's cool. As ladyv has said, that's how you define your win.

I define mine differently.

That's long and rambly. For that, I apologize. I'm not putting my ideas out there as any sort of panacea. This approach worked for me, but it may have only worked because of the personalities involved. We very much did not deal with infidelity through deep communication of our process and soul-searching shares of our hurts. If you need that sort of thing, then most of my posts should probably be on your ignore list.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
jjct
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Default  Posted: 7:34 PM, April 16th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

wal, no apologies necessary. It's a useful approach and response, well explained. Even though the specifics of a counter-offer to cheat didn't happen in my sitch, the basic lesson; the BS is to put themselves first in line for healing, is solid in just about all the situations I've read about here.

Any talk about *the M*, or 'you go ahead and have an A to make it even' is purely a diversion. I do not accept that the M can be talked about, dealt with, or considered until the WS's issues are addressed first.
Besides, there's no M to talk about anyway - they pretty much blew that up.
Enjoy your insight... keep on truckin.


Posts: 6032 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
StillGoing
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Default  Posted: 10:23 PM, April 16th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I only see it as counter-productive if you actually do take her up on the offer one day.

I disagree. Either it's as good as taking the offer up, or it's an empty threat.

I understand the WS being retarded but playing to that is what I don't understand. The A wasn't about me. I'm fucking awesome, even if I have issues that provide a complete emotional block to acknowledging that. Working additional insecurities in just to say "See how it feels?" is something I see as a reflection on me and more of the same shit the WS was playing.

I don't see a point to it other than to inflict damage on the WS, which in R I don't see as productive towards the BS recovery. If there is no R, if the WS is fogged up, then fuck yes. Swing the 2x4 of reality and get out of the hole. Hell, my own Doc told me that. But this:

I don't know. Maybe you guys have a great deal more patience than I do. Some people are more effective at loving their spouse out of error and sucking it up until their wife comes around. I'm not built that way. I'm not built to always take the high road and be content with how that reflects on me no matter how many times I get screwed over. That's a deeply unsatisfying narrative for me, as is "I held our marriage together through my strength, understanding and limitless love while you were trying to burn it down."

If that's an implication of a "love them back into the M" then absolutely not and there's no need to go down that rabbithole because I don't think it's been suggested at all. This isn't either-or.


eta:

Yes, the "I'm awesome" was meant to be illustrative dry humor.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 10:26 PM, April 16th (Saturday)]


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7119 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
wincing_at_light
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Default  Posted: 10:54 PM, April 16th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I presumed that we *were* talking about about foggy WS's (and thus, not a relationship anywhere close to R, as jjct points out), because I can't imagine anyone non-foggy putting that offer on the table.

(As soon as my wife got her legs under her and started to think more healthily, the offer was definitely retracted. It was one of the ways I knew she was starting to repair her self-esteem.)

But I'll also freely admit that I'm a vindictive son of a bitch by nature. If I perceive that someone's intent is to inflict damage on me, then I will go out of my way to make sure that they're the one who suffers the brunt of it in the long run.

This is, once again, a me thing that may not apply to others. If I take the high road when someone has tried to hurt me -- whether they were successful or not -- when I look in the mirror, I don't see something be proud of. I see myself as a wuss for letting them get away with it, for daring to think they could.

I'm much happier looking in the mirror knowing that they tried to hurt me, but it was their little red wagon that got busted.

It takes a great deal to provoke me, admittedly, and I'm enormously easy going, but once that switch gets flipped, I'm not fighting fair and I'm not stopping until I win, even if that means burning the relationship to the ground in the process.

But, in the context of this discussion, a completely agree with you that if you've decided that R is definitely on the table and something you're actively going to pursue, then inflicting additional damage on the WS should be out of bounds. Of course, that also presumes that the WS isn't doing things like telling you to go out and get fucked to shut you up.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
stilllovingher
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Default  Posted: 9:34 AM, April 17th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey guys,
I've been reading this thread for quite a while but never posted on it cuz I didn't want slhim to read it or read what I might have to say here.
But...she found it(I never mentioned this threads name)out of curiosity so I guess I might as well join in.
WAL: I find your posts amusing,insightful,and most the time agreeable.
I'm curious, did you actually do this with the counter offer,or just wish you had?
I had the ra offer, but didn't have the presence of mind to figure out what she meant by it. I did understand that a ra wouldn't be the same as her hidden A. And even thought the same as you, that it would have to be carried out in the same manner that hers was...behind her back and on my terms without her involvement.
And I do agree that its unfair that many ww get to skate through this "knowing" that their BH is committed when what we get is to know that they were not.
Interestingly though, my ww has recently been very concerned about me leaving her.
I haven't done or said anything to warrant this,but there it is.
So perhaps we are wrong in believing they have no worries. It took a while, but my ww is deffenately worried.

But I still wish I had the clarity to ammend and accept her counter offer when she gave it.
I think a little fear would've gone a long way back then.


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2385 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
StillGoing
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Default  Posted: 9:43 AM, April 17th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I had assumed given the language used (R as an adversarial process, etc) we were talking about stupid shit WS say in R. Misunderstanding then.

I don't even see it as taking a high road, though. I don't really see even it as a matter of virtues. I just see it as a waste of time. I'm all for vindictive retribution. It just seems like a terrible idea to go that direction from a place of vulnerability and serious hurt. If it backfires it's going to hit hard and deep; and if you're in a place where you're solid then it's totally unnecessary anyway.

I think you're saying YMMV and I can agree with that, since nobody can know the details of every situation.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7119 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
stilllovingher
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Default  Posted: 10:13 AM, April 17th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't see it as vindictiveness. I see it as letting them stew on the same doubts that we stew on.
If they entered the A believing that we would be here when they got back,and we were, then what did we just teach them?
They have to unlearn this somehow.
And I think WALS approach kinda forces them into our perspective.


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2385 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
hurtbutmending
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Default  Posted: 10:27 AM, April 17th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Men Only.

[This message edited by Deeply Scared at 2:14 PM, April 17th (Sunday)]


BS(me)
FWH(him)
MOW insignificant
married 25 years
2 grown children
DDay Oct 4 2009
R - trying


Trusted too much!


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