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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men-Part 7
OnceInALifetime
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Member # 26023
Default  Posted: 10:57 PM, January 14th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My XW made no grand gestures to demonstrate her remorse. She felt that anything she tried would just seem stupid and inadequate, so she didn't try. Didn't risk it.

I think risk is part of the traditionally male redemption path. In this culture, men are taught to take risks to gain rewards. We're the ones who typically stick our necks out and ask for dates, for example. Grand gestures of remorse involve risk of rejection and humiliation, and, as WAL said, there's not an expectation to succeed.

But the process, whether or not the woman is wooed back, has a more meaningful, deeper aim, and deeper meaning. It's a process of transformation. How often have we seen it played out in the chick flicks? A guy screws up, then gets his act together and fundamentally changes. His entreaties to the wronged woman are rejected. Nevertheless, he is a reformed man, and you can tell that his life is headed in a healthy direction. Somehow, the woman notices this, and in the last 3 minutes of the movie, she rushes back to him, and everyone in the theater starts crying. I challenge you to come up with one movie like that, where the sexes are reversed (not saying there aren't any).

[This message edited by OnceInALifetime at 11:12 PM, January 14th (Friday)]


BH, now divorced

Posts: 3012 | Registered: Oct 2009
jjct
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Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 8:32 AM, January 15th (Saturday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jasper:
what bugs me is the fact that she seems to need me to pursue her. Regardless of whether I'm enjoying it or not, she definitely needs to be pursued, even though she's the one who fucked up.
Struggling to figure out exactly what the trigger is, but, every once in a while, I suddenly stop enjoying the pursuit/dating/wooing, and start to resent it. I just can't put my finger on what it is that causes the sudden change in direction for me.

In light of the last few excellent posts about the differences in the redemption narratives, I'd guess that your resentment is fueled by the seeming unfairness in them.
After all, why should you be the one who pursues when she's the one that fucked up?

Is there a point where the BH can reject the tropes, say fuck it to the Disney "prince pursues princess" meme? I think so - if we want an "intelligent" mate.

If I'm getting this right, remember the part about insulting the womenz intelligence? That's saying *not all fallen women* are in thrall to the societally-imposed pattern, and can think and act outside the orthodox box...

Come to think of it, is it then upon us to do the same?...In the sense of throwing off the *pursuer* stereotype, and saying; "Game off!" (Bich! is optional) -"There's a new game in town, where you're the pursuer."

On a related note, certain aspects of the pursuit can be enjoyable I suppose, though at this point it's more a colossally bothering giant ass pain to me. I do remember the *capture* part being enjoyable though...


Posts: 6019 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
CaptainTal
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Default  Posted: 9:28 AM, January 16th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Need some help here, gents. So my WW comes home last night and starts going on about how some guy at the new coffee shop she goes to (her OM was an employee at another shop) told her she looks 21 and doesn't look like she's had 3 kids (which is true). Then she says "You've always told me this, but now I know you weren't just saying it and really meant it".

Really? So basically my complements don't mean anything to her unless validated by another man. Which it seems is a big part of what led to her A in the first place (she wants validation from multiple men).

I got a little pissed off and told her why this bothered me, but the discussion didn't really go anywhere. How would you guys handle this? On the one hand this makes me concerned that she's still a big A risk and I practically want to 180. On the other hand, I could see the argument that I'm blowing this way out of proportion and should just roll my eyes and leave it at that.


Me: BH (31)
Her: WW (30)
3 kids: 6,4,1
D-day: 06/29/10. False R through November. Now working on real R. Or so I'm led to believe.


Posts: 18 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: United States
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 11:31 AM, January 16th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

According to the posts I've read at SI, I find this situation of yours to be pretty universal among BH's.
"Familiarity breeds contempt."
"A prophet is not welcome or respected in his own hometown, not even among his family."

I tell WW something and she will dismiss it. But if someone else, it doesn't matter who it is, tells her the same exact thing; she will treat that information like it's the Holy Grail.
Me: it's time for the dogs to get their shots.
Her:
Two days later...
Her: the vet called...oh my gosh, we need to get the dogs down there for their shots!!!
Me:

So basically my complements don't mean anything to her unless validated by another man.

Yup! That pretty much sums it up. She will most likely deny that vehemently but there you go. It doesn't sound like a big deal. A shrewd WW on the make for another A wouldn't usually mentioned an incident like that to her H.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 11:31 AM, January 16th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tal, she *is* still a big A risk. She's going to a new coffee shop and is already soliciting comments about her appearance from other men. I'm sure she'd say something like, "I wasn't soliciting comments; I was just talking to him!"

But she was. She clearly has no boundaries. There's something in her vibe that encourages strange men to think they've got a shot with her. That's all her.

And seriously, is this coffee house thing still her "writing" time? Cuz I've got to tell you...I've written over a dozen novels, and no part of my "writing time" involves talking to strangers about how hot I am. It's work. It's head down, nose to the grindstone, not even noticing when my coffee cup is empty and the ashtray is full *work*.

I think she's using this writing time you're giving her to troll for men, and you're justified in being pissed off about it.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
somanyyears
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Member # 26970
Default  Posted: 12:51 PM, January 16th (Sunday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tal..you can't, unfortunately, control whether other men approach or hit on your wife..

..if, however, she looks great, foxy, dresses sharp or slutty, and sends out a vibe..looks around for glances coming her way and makes eye contact..then you've got a problem.

..boundaries??? for her, they may be 'loose' boundaries..

..was she trying to create some jealousy here by telling you about this guy?

..i had a conversation with my wife about her sitting alone with her book at our local coffee shop.. and the 'opportunites' that present themselves, for interested men to make a comment, joke, compliment, favorite pick-up line, a simple 'hello, nice weather we're havin' today.'

..if your wife 'wants' the attention, she's going to go looking for it..

..how far she takes it is the big question!!!???

..i agree with WAL..and i'd sit down with her and 'spell it out for her!!!'

..i'd be pissed, but her telling you is good for you to know..

smy

[This message edited by somanyyears at 12:53 PM, January 16th (Sunday)]


trust no other human- love only your pets
She isn't and never was who I thought..I can't believe who I married and what she did to us.
Me 66
Her 63
Married 41 yrs (together 47)
18 yr LTA with bf


Posts: 4018 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: the sad state of affairs
SourCherryDrops
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Default  Posted: 4:38 AM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As a complete aside: If you want to know the utter and complete truth, there is no redemption for a BH. We don't need to be redeemed. I don't know about you, but I liked myself just fine before my wife's infidelity. I did not once look at myself after D-day and think in even the smallest voice I deserved this. I know I'm crappy at x, y and z. If I'd been a better this or that, this wouldn't have happened.

Listen to me here: I didn't learn one new lesson of worth in recovering from infidelity. None. It's just wasted years and bullshit while you re-discover things you already knew about how strong, capable, and worthwhile you are. You get your feet back under you and the only thing you regret is all the time, effort and energy you wasted getting back to knowing what you already knew.

It's all bullshit. There's no grand purpose, no hand of God, nothing you're ever going to look back at and go "Oh, I see what God was doing in my life there. It was all so totally worth it!!!" Just years and tears spent to no useful purpose. Our battle is to make sure we don't *lose* the good that's already resident in us: the ability to love, to trust, to feel, to know and be known authentically.

WAL, your right i had a pretty good impression of myself prior to DDay, I felt that i was a pretty Damn good Dad, I devoted my spare time to my family or making my family situation more comfortable. I felt i was a pretty decent Husband, I loved my W, I helped extensively around the house, I treated her well, I gave her plenty of freedom. I have a decent job that afforded me a good wage, but still allowed me plenty of family time... Yeah i thought i was pretty good.

But then the Revelation at DDay.... It made me question all that. If my WW was so unhappy that she had cheated on me for several years, then surely i cannot have been as great as i thought. So i listened to her complaints, and i accepted them... I knew i hadnt deserved this, that SI had tld me and, and that at least stuck with me right from the begining. But i also knew i could have been more this, more that, done more.... thats what i knew after DDay, that is what my WW would have me believe.

But then as my investigations continued, and i put together a timeline of when the first discontent started.... I realised that some of what she was saying didnt add up. Me spending evening on the computer didnt cause her to withdraw, I started spending evening on the computer after she withdrew. Slowly i came to the realisation that a lot of waht she was blaming didnt really carry a lot of weight. So perhapes i wasnt that bad after all... In talking about it, explaining it here, and with friends, Ive been able to see where the real cause lies, and its wholely with my WW.

Yes, I was capable of doing more, but it wouldnt have mattered anyway, because the cause was not me, it was the emptiness in her. Now that i believe this its easier for me to believe again in that impression of myself that i held prior to DDay. But i am also a different man to him now, I will not trust as easily again, I am bitter and it will take time for me to rediscover my joy. I am also i hope a lot wiser, I hope that i will not repeat some of the mistakes i have made in the past. I also know that one day I will be an even better man, a better husband than the one i was, and that gives me hope.


Really? So basically my complements don't mean anything to her unless validated by another man. Which it seems is a big part of what led to her A in the first place (she wants validation from multiple men).

CaptainTal, Exactly, you are her husband, you have no choice, you are expected to provide the validation she wants. When a women asks how she looks in an outfit, Id suggest that the vast majority are not interested in an honest opinion, but rather want validation that the outfit they have chosen is a good choice. As a man, you learn very quick that there really is no workable answer other than the one she wants to hear. Over time we become perfunctory in our response to this oh so often repeated question, this is recognised, and so the answer is discounted. It happens even if the response is absolutely true. I loved my W deeply, what she weighed that year, or what she wore was irrelevant, she was still attractive to me, i thought she looked good pretty almost all of the time. But she no-longer recognised this, with the repeated question everytime before she went out, and my constant answer that she looked great, she 'knew' that i was just saying it. She believed that i didnt even really mean it.... So a new source of validation is sought... at first it may be friends, but the validation from another man is so much stronger.

It only took one of the OM an hour in chat, a telephone call, and a cup of coffee to get my WW to go back to his hotel room... the validation from 'you look so hot' or whatever he spouted to get into her knickers was strong enough. I could have said she 'looked hot' till the cows came home, i some cases i did, but it meant nothing. My W appears to be a strong personality to an outsider, but inside she is scared and affraid of being left alone, she doesnt really trust those around her with her feelings, so doesnt let people really close, She has surronded herself with friends that are more interested in themselves than others, allowing her to maintain a degree of seperation. She is not a validation junky but she still seeks that validation that she is lovable enough, that she is worthy enough not to be abandoned again... In the begining i was the bee's knees, I could do no wrong, i was a big validation to her.... but time diminishes that, eventually i was accentuated with a stronger source of validation.


Me BS 37, Her STBX 34, 1*ONS, 1*EA 1*PA/EA, 2*PA
Heading for D after 9 mths of R

Posts: 1468 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Europe
CanISurvive
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Member # 29788
Default  Posted: 5:21 AM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tal & Kite...

Validation from outside sources with no recognition of the validation given within the relationship...

Could have wrote that myself. Definitely boundary issues too.

SCD -- great post. Thank you for your perspective and insights. I have been blaming myself quite a bit for the problems in the marriage (yes, I have issues that did contribute, but she made the affair choice instead of the 'work on our marriage' choice).

I have been going over the past years, and am starting to see a pattern of my WW distancing herself from me while claiming happiness in the marriage (at least til she refuted all that on D-Day). She has a lot of holes in her life, her identity, and her reality. I will take the time I need to to grieve, deal with the likely divorce and the fallout, work on my issues, and try to learn to regain a healthy (though not naive) level of trust and move forward into a new life of my own.


D final 11/25/2011 -- on Black Friday! ;-)

Moved my stats to my Profile; click there for my story.

I am a Phoenix; I may be in the ashes stage at the moment, but I am now actively working on my Rebirth. =)

PS: I edit posts for typos & clarity


Posts: 330 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: California
Jimi40
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Member # 10909
Default  Posted: 6:31 AM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Age old scenerio Tal, man is never going to figure out woman. Period.

I went through the same shit, with the same results. I'm sure most of us have.

So, fuck it. Let's drink beer, watch football, and scratch our nuts.


You've got nowhere to fall, when your back's to the wall.

Posts: 5524 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Niagara
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 10:02 AM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So how was your weekend? How was mine? I'm glad you asked.

Friday night developed into a screaming match over me insisting on a S/D sometime in the near future. The usual vulgar name-calling ensued on her part while I calmly addressed the situation in what she now refers to as my "Godfather voice." Which seems to anger her greatly.

At one point she got within inches of my face and screamed "I only f***ed one other man since we've been married, the rest were just EA's." When I pointed out that I hadn't brought up her slutlike behavior even once during the conversation she became even more unhinged.

WW is a wall hidden inside a vault. The only time truth comes out is when she loses control and begins screaming at me. One new and interesting tidbit emerged and that was her shock at the amount of pain her behavior has caused me. I think for the first time ever it has dawned on her what she has done to me.

Why not bail out now? Because in a few weeks we will drive to Indiana together to see our son get married. After that all bets are off.

The 180 was easy the rest of the weekend because the NFL playoffs were on. Yes, I got to watch and enjoy each and every wonderful game in complete peace and quiet.



Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
brokenheart59
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Member # 28304
Default  Posted: 10:02 AM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I tell WW something and she will dismiss it. But if someone else, it doesn't matter who it is, tells her the same exact thing; she will treat that information like it's the Holy Grail.

Mr. Kite your WW seems like mine what I say does not mean anything to her.

Just how many of you are still with WW and are truly happy.


BS-Me
WW-Her, 3-5 years 2 different men
true feelings for 1

Posts: 174 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: US
Merlin
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Member # 30221
Default  Posted: 10:21 AM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The only time truth comes out is when she loses control and begins screaming at me.

Mr. Kite,

Something like this happened to me after her affair was revealed and the marriage disintegrated. Even then it was in sputters and gasps.

She keeps in pushed down so far that it cannot come out except under extreme stress. She runs her life no so that no challenge can cause her to think or deal with who she is or what she's done.


"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." D. H. Lawrence

Her: WW/56 Me: BS/62, 24yrs M
3 great kids, now 22, 20, 17 b,b,g
D-Day 8/14/08, D 1/13/11


Posts: 1106 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: East Coast
64fleet
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Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 10:30 AM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

amen to that jimi-I really feel a lot of my trouble was doing too much, being too nice, etc-some women just do not respect a man who cares.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5359 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
Shoestring
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Member # 20731
Default  Posted: 10:58 AM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Plus how many of us heard this famous quote after the A came to light, "I didn't think you loved me any more?"

WHAT HOGWASH!

They didn't THINK we didn't love them any more.

Well, I'll be damned! Why didn't they ask us? And I guess even if they did, they wouldn't have believed us anyway.

So they get their approval/moral boast from an old boy friend or someone who wants a moist/warm place to put it and knows just what to say to give them exactly what they are looking for.

So they got their boast then tell us it was really nothing and didn't mean anything.

To that I say BULL SHIT!

25 year A. Yep, that didn't mean anything.


H (me) 73 Nov 7th
WS (her) 71 Aug 6th
A lasted 25+ years
Maybe all our married life?
M 53 yrs on Oct 2
OMM - Same age as WS
They were Hi school sweethearts
D-day March 27, 2008
Children grown Son 48 D 44


Posts: 656 | Registered: Aug 2008
Jimi40
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Member # 10909
Default  Posted: 1:03 PM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Gather 'round boys. Old Uncle Jimi has some wisdom to pass on to you. It's pretty deep, and it may shock the shit out of you when you hear it...........


Women are just FUCKED!!!

I told ya!!


You've got nowhere to fall, when your back's to the wall.

Posts: 5524 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Niagara
CaptainTal
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Member # 30766
Default  Posted: 3:04 PM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lots of great thoughts guys. I'm going to talk to my WW some more about it, and probably an issue to bring up in MC as well, especially since we have good MC's. I think it's good that she told me about it, but it's still obviously a big issue.

Brokenheart59, you ask an interesting question. How many of us still with WW are truly happy? I know I'm not... but the thing with infidelity, at least for me, is that unless we magically reconcile completely, it's a lose-lose situation.

As it is I'm doing a lot better than I was shortly after D-Day, but I still live in fear of the other shoe dropping, and most of all I have to deal with the fact that what I thought was a beautiful and special marriage was a lie. But would D be better? I wouldn't get to see my kids every day, I'd have to pay out a bunch of dollars to a woman who broke my heart, and trying to date again with three little kids (one of them with mild special needs) would be a nightmare at best and impossible at worst. So if I stay married I have to deal with fear, uncertainty, pain, and a the crap my WW still puts me through sometimes. If I D I have to deal with less time with kids, loss of money, and loneliness (though I wonder if being truly alone would really feel more lonely than what I feel now).

Fuck infidelity. It is a soul-crushing, joy-robbing, piece of shit selfish thing to do.

Shoestring - I heard that too. Plus: "The marriage was already over in my heart". Well great, would have been nice for me and my bank account to know those little pieces of information. Anyway sir, I am really sorry for your pain and situation, I can't even imagine.


Me: BH (31)
Her: WW (30)
3 kids: 6,4,1
D-day: 06/29/10. False R through November. Now working on real R. Or so I'm led to believe.


Posts: 18 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: United States
64fleet
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Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 4:06 PM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Amazing how we all got "I didn't think you loved me" line-I said to her-"so you thought fucking some other guy would make me love you MORE?"


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5359 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
OnceInALifetime
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Member # 26023
Default  Posted: 10:25 PM, January 17th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Perfect response, 64fleet!

For what it's worth to you guys holding on to your marriages...

I'm divorced. My own choice. But I'm consumed with anger. This ain't easy for me. The divorce process itself was hellish; we lived together throughout, and the settlement was punitive against me. Now I have real issues with hating women, hating society, even hating myself. I'm middle aged, and aging fast, so I feel like I'd better hurry up and get some with an attractive lady before my teeth all fall out. My more reasonable side tells me to hold off, that I need to come to terms with so much before I inflict myself on anyone.

This is not how I expected to feel after getting divorced. I expected to revel in freedom, and live under blue skies. Being a jaded divorced man is hard.

Don't get me wrong, it's easier than staying married to someone you know you will never reconcile with (for me, this is true). But damn, it still feels like an amputation.

[This message edited by OnceInALifetime at 10:36 PM, January 17th (Monday)]


BH, now divorced

Posts: 3012 | Registered: Oct 2009
SourCherryDrops
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Member # 25883
Default  Posted: 2:22 AM, January 18th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

im another one for the 'i didnt think you loved me anymore' boat.

Actually i wonder how many BW's hear that from their WH's or if it is a more typically BW thing to say....just sort of strikes me that way.

Eitherway its complete horseshit. If i didnt love her anymore then id have damn well told her and stopped wasting my time in a scham marriage. Shame she wasnt able to do that herself.... For me its tantamount to saying 'I didnt love you anymore, but didnt tell you, so you must be doing the same thing, cause then it wouldnt make me so bad'. Only problem there is that as it turns out i have a considerably different set of standards than she does.


@Jimi, OIAL, Guys i think you do yourselves a great disservice to tar all women with the same brush. Trust me, i understand why, i think we all do, and we all do it to some extent at times. But please be carefull that you dont poison yourself against women for all time by giving in to the ease of it. Not all women are like our WW's There are just as many decent ones out their. Sure women are different from us, but different dont necessarily mean bad. I just worry that if you get into the habit of seeing all women as being like your WW's it will prohibit you from finding real happiness someday with a woman that doesnt deserve to be treated that way.


Me BS 37, Her STBX 34, 1*ONS, 1*EA 1*PA/EA, 2*PA
Heading for D after 9 mths of R

Posts: 1468 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Europe
Jimi40
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Member # 10909
Default  Posted: 5:38 AM, January 18th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I can take this all the way back to my very first girlfriend, in highschool. I've been betrayed by them all. My first wife, my present wife, they've all done it.

So, I'm supposed to think it's me, I guess? Not for one fucking minute!! I'm a good provider, I have always had a job, I have always put my family's needs before my own, I'm not a bad looking guy, I have a pretty good sense of humour, and I'm very sociable. I think I'm a pretty good catch. So why have they all cheated??

I don't have a small dick, I like sex, and foreplay. I don't have any hangups about trying different things. I never forget dates, like anniversaries, birthdays, etc.

So, tell me, what the fuck is it??

I like nice things in my home, I'm not a slob, I'm not a fussy eater, and I'm absolutely not hard to please. I'm polite (thanks mom), I'm punctual, I like to play in my gardens, both flower and vegetable. I love my horses. I'm not fat, I'm not skinny, I smoke, but not in the house, I drink, but not all the time, I'm handy as hee, but know when to call a pro.

So what else can it be?? Is it the women I'm attracted to? Is it the hair around my bellybutton? Is it the boots I wear?

Or are they all just fucked??


You've got nowhere to fall, when your back's to the wall.

Posts: 5524 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Niagara
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