I'm with miracle that I think WS's in general have to have at least some narcissistic characteristics. There's no other way you could justify and explain to yourself, if not to anyone else, how you could continue with behavior that is truly selfish....on every level. But I also agree with Honest that it doesn't mean that they have full-blown NPD. FWH has many narcissictic tendencies, but other there are other parts of the profile that don't fit him as well.
Food for thought....I asked FWH an interesting question yesterday. Initially I wanted to know if he had ever or does ever feel guilt over what he has done. And then I thought to ask if he has felt guilt or does he just feel responsible. In my mind there is a significant difference. FWH said that he thinks he has "suppressed" any feelings of guilt, which must mean that no, he doesn't feel guilty. He does feel responsible, but not guilty. What do you think about this? I'm still mulling it around in my head.
Welcome but so sorry you have to join our little group.
I still remember the horror of those first days. I am 8 months out and now relatively sane. Back then I thought I'd go mad. The pain is horrific. It is worse than anything you could ever have imagined before dday. So you are normal. Keep that in mind. You will survive this. You and your marriage will never be the same but you will survive and believe it or not will come out stronger and maybe even happier than before because you will have dealt with the demon that was destroying your life.
Read the "Healing Library" and FOLLOW ALL THE GUIDELINES. As a newbie I made some mistakes I'm now regretting. The people here really know what we should do. Please do all they recommend. Listen esp to those who've been here a while. Their wisdom is gold and will help you so much.
Can't write more as I have to go visit a sick relative but will be back later. I'm sure some of my LTA friends will respond soon as well.
They are a wonderful bunch of people.
So many struggling at present. Nell - just reread your list. Awesome. BP, Fun, DP, Dip where are you??
About the love thing...I actually can't help much with that as my FWH has told me that he was never "in love" with OW. AS if that really makes it better...it doesn't. My FWH also had 2 ONS after he broke off the 4 year LTA so I can identify with you there. Like you, the ONS's don't bother me as much as the LTA. I think because no matter what he says, I find it impossible to believe that you can have a "relationship" with another W, that includes sex, that does not have some "love" component to it. My FWH is a champion compartmentalizer though, so I'm convinced that while he was with OW he was able to put thoughts of me "away" and when he was home he could put thoughts of OW "away." Maybe your WH has been able to do the same thing?? That doesn't excuse ANY of their behavior, but it does help you to understand it. Having said that, I will not remain in a M under those circumstance and unless my FWH makes some very serious changes, particularly in his willingness to compartmentalize me and our M, then we will not be able to R.
Hang in there.
Unfortunately... The taking it, thanking me for it and putting it away, never to look at it again is EXACTLY what he has done with everything so far. I'm willing to beat my head against that brick wall one more time. Heck, I even know how to rant and rave and scream and then burst into tears to make him do what I want. (Thank you, OW, for the lessons in manipulation. And thank YOU, WH, for insisting that these actions are not, in fact, manipulations.)
Henny, welcome. These are unfounded fears that you've talked yourself into, and eventually you will learn how to talk yourself back out.
Oh, my IC does EMDR. She gave me some info but said she wasn't sure that I was ready to let go of the feelings yet (especially the anger).
[This message edited by ImNellNow at 6:03 PM, March 4th (Friday)]
Miracle: I'm not going to do anything stupid. I think I have it all thought through. The main consideration is that if I'm not flexible with this, he probably will stay on the job longer, which doesn't really increase my share of the pension (too hard to explain right now). And, on top of that, I run the risk that he loses his pension completely, which can happen (also too difficult to explain right now).
So, the way I see it, I'd be getting my share of the pension in 2 years or whenever he retires, plus I would adjust his child support (good thinking with the off the book income - I was planning on saying in no event will his child support be less than $____ so as to avoid that possibility.) Anyway, when I do the math, even with the adjustment, I would still be receiving about $1k/mo net more than just the child support.
But, like I said, I do plan on running all this past my coworker just to make sure my emotions are not clouding my judgment.
My H said it was "just sex" with OW. I know they said they loved each other, he said he didn't mean it, didn't say it often, more of a texting things, etc.
However, his actions spoke otherwise. I don't know what his relationship was really like with OW, I know there was an emotional component as well as the physical. He explained it this way to me (and, since you are new here you should know that my H is very short on words and insight): he knows he loves me because he is with me, not her and because he knows he can live without her and can't live without me. He told me they never fought, disagreed, etc. over the 1 1/2yrs they spent together and they spent nearly every day together and most certainly were in contact throughout the day via text or phone if they weren't physically together. He will acknowledge that it wasn't a real relationship tho.
I would look for some sort of explanation from him. What is it about them that he loved? That might be your first clue as to whether it was something particular about these women that he enjoyed or if what he enjoyed was what they did for him, either physically or emotionallly, ie: were they filling a void with himself, something you couldn't fill because it's not present in healthy individuals and you were not otherwise aware was an issue.
Then, look for NC breaches. If he seems to be able to throw himself into the R process, that should help you believe that whatever the Hell his problem was during the As he's very sure that he loves you and is 100% remorseful.
Now, this may take some time. Once an emotional attachment is formed, I dont think many people can shut it off like a switch, even if they want to. So, that is a painful wait, but as long as he can be honest about his feelings and show support for you and do things to make you feel safe in this very uneasy time, that will help.
Comparing yourself to OW: not a good thing to do, yet we all do it.
First, let me mention that you should not under any circumstances post a pic of yourself and a pic of OW on this site for us to rate you. Lol. (Inside joke - this entire thread almost got banned from our momentary lapse in judgment relating to this.)
But seriously, it's easy to obsess upon it, especially if the info is so easy to get your hands on. I searched for it, and I got it, and then I obsessed over it for probably close to a year. My OW is 9 years younger than me and is very attractive with a perfect body and tries to be as close to naked as legal all the time.
I'm sure the sex was fabulous too.
Try to stay focused on the fact that he is choosing you. That should say a lot to you. If it's hard to have sex, because these "mind movies" keep popping up, try to think of it in a vengeful way - like you are getting OW back, or you will "one up" her, etc. (y'know, within limits. Don't do anything you are not comfortable doing.)
If your H is not a complete a-hole and is remorseful, then this should go away pretty soon. Between his happiness with your sex life and his efforts at reassuring you, etc outside the bedroom, I think you will come to the conclusion that he is with you because he wants to be with you, because he loves you, not OW.
Once trust is restored in the relationship, you won't worry about OW anymore.
Hope that helps.
FWH said that he thinks he has "suppressed" any feelings of guilt, which must mean that no, he doesn't feel guilty. He does feel responsible, but not guilty. What do you think about this?
I think it sucks, but I will give him some points for being brutally honest when it should be against his better judgment.
I don't like suppressing feelings of wrongdoing. THat doesnt sound like a healthy approach at all. An approach I would be more comfortable with would be looking back and saying this is what led me to think this was ok. That was really misguided. I think it was x.y and z that affected my judgment. I am going to do a, b and c so that x y and z dont happen.
In other words, reflect, acknowledge you made a mistake and learn from it.
Now, maybe he meant that he doesn't think about it every day, maybe that's what he means by suppressing it, and while we dont seem to have that luxury, I wouldn't begrudge someone that peace if they had dealt with the conflict properly, then stopped beating himself up about it, chalking it up to a life lesson.
welcome to our little corner of si and the first thing i need to tell you is
b r e a t h e....
and you will need to do this quite often, eat and take care of yourself....
next step, if you have not already done so, please read the healing library. you will find so much usefull info as well as solace in the words
you are not alone in any of what you feel, there are many of us who have been there....
and it sucks...i cannot sugar coat it, it sucks...but and its a big but...you will get through this, it will take work but you will survive...so put that thought into your head...you will survive...
as for the love:
yes he probably did love them in whatever way he did...is it real love...NOPE....and if he really loved one of them to the point of true love, he would already be with her....
for now, take baby steps in trying to digest it all, there is so much info especially for us lta folk....one step at a time, its a process and i will be honest with you its a long one, so be patient with yourself most of all....
so your thoughts for today are, yes he may have very well loved this woman or both of them...but he loves you more
second: never ever compare yourself...it does not matter what the op looks like, is like or smells like...there is nothing wrong with you...your ws though is the one who is BROKEN....one can never ever solve a relationship issue by turning away from the relationship to another....ever...so he did wrong in so many ways til sunday....
come here often, it helps, vent, journal, ramble...anything....you are not alone, so do not choose to be....
thank you for the offer, and hopefully i will not have to take you up on it...
scrawny boy is so far having a good time...he will be home late tomorrow nite...
next week will be really difficult for me...dd is going to italy, i am so so happy for her, but thinking about my baby girl so far away across an ocean... so torn between being happy and worried....mostly happy, and of course still worried...
very attractive with a perfect body
very attractive with a perfect body
She gave me the horrors
I HEARD my H talking to OW2 and telling her how much he loved her. In the first few weeks after dday he denied "loving" her but then said he "cared" about her a lot (minimizing?). He now says he dreads seeing her. Says he talked himself into believing he "loved" her to justify his cheating. I told him repeatedly in the first few months that if he wanted to he should go to OW2 or OW3. That I'd prefer to be alone than with someone pining after another woman. That I would NEVER share my man with another woamn (unlike his sluts). I tried to force him out of the house twice. Threatened to pile all his stuff out on the lawn and burn it if he didn't leave. Well he's still here!! He is falling over himself trying to please me. Says he always loved me and didn't realise how much until this happened.
Honey, your H does love you but he is in the fog. He will come out of it. It is wonderful that he confessed - mine didn't - he lied and denied for hours. He still hasn't told me the whole truth and I strongly suspect there were many others.
Honey, you got a confession. That is wonderful. It is the first step towards real remorse. He DOES love you. He may THINK he loves them but as he comes to realise that someone who LOVED him would not help to destroy his life he'll realise it was all bullshit. Those warm fuzzy feelings were more to do with sex and ego stroking than love. If he LOVED them he'd be with them. End of story.
Yes I compare myself with them. I am honest, trustworthy, faithful and generous.
They are dishonest, not to be trusted, unfaithful (they all had Hs) and selfish.
They are the scum of the earth. They have no morals. They are sly, sneaky, skank, bitch, whores who will one day wake up and realise they gave away their integrity. They will go to their graves with the label cheat on their souls. They can never undo what they did to me or my children. One day I hope the karma bus hits them big time. I hope they are in love and have a "great" partner who cheats on them. I hope they finally realise the pain they have caused me and fear hell for it. I believe there is a special place in hell for women like this.
As for the sex. Well... I'm sure there are prostitutes out there who can do a better job than me. Am I jealous? No. Maybe his whores were "better" at some things than me. Maybe they can cook better or have better skin? Who knows? Who cares! I'd rather be me than them in a million lifetimes. I'd rather die tomorrow than sink down into their sewers.
So this is what you need to do. Focus on YOU. You are the only thing that matters at this time. The infidelity diet will probably help you shed lbs. Take advantage of it. Begin a new diet. Focus on eating REALLY healthy food. Lots of salad and veges. Lots of water. You will look and feel better. Lose that weight you've put on. I lost more than 30lbs and dropped from size 16 to size 12 and I feel fabulous. Several people have said I look 10 yrs younger. One said it in front of my H. Another told him (in my presence) that I looked "hot". Get your hair done. Try a new colour or style. Go shopping. I always worried about money. Paying off the house. Saving for retirement. Forget all that. Do things that make you feel good. Spend what you want to. Throw caution to the wind. Go out for dinner with a gf. Get up every morning and make an effort to look good. It is so tempting to lie around in those pjs. Don't. Look good for YOU. This is all for YOU. If he comments say "I need to be prepared for my new life. If you can't commit to me, then I need to be ready for my future." (You are probably not ready for that yet but it will come).
Self esteem is very hard hit by infidelity. Don't let it get to you. Take control as soon as you can!!!
Spoke to the doc this morning. My aunt is on big doses of morphine. He said it is a matter of days
My nephew and his dad are doing well. Transplant seems successful.
Thinking of you all
After your comment about the perfect body I had to go to my files and check my memory of "THE PHOTOS" (I saved them ).
No NO NOOOOOO!!! The bods ok but the face ugh and the fake knockers ...yuk!!! Compared to you it's like looking at.... heavens I can't think of an analogy that's ugly enough
I am glad you decided to join us. We all can relate. We all are at different points of relationships. Different stages of reconciliation (R), some in different stages for Divorce (D). These are choices and decision.
I picked R. My pick started in fear but over time strenght does come back. That is when the real choice is made. For about a year now, I have had a very good marriage. I can honestly say my wife treats me about a good as any wife could.
With that said, I also am a changed person. Daily, things remind me of what she did. I can fight of the urge to hurt. I can appreciate the goodness we do have. I have allowed myself to cry if I want to in compassion. I have allowed myself to enjoy my wife.
As for love, I think you need to make sure you understand the meaning of love. It is not easy and debated for years and years.
True and mature love looks beyond any over weight, physial beauty.
My W loved the other man. There was no "thinking" the were in love. They were in love. Many of us here have debated it. I know I'm right. (my narc coming out) You don't have a relationship for a year, years, and not love someone. Sex is love unless it's with a paid with a prostitute (faking love)
My wife did not have boundaries. Love is a choice. Love is not really a feeling. I can have feelings of lust, but I am not loving someone.
I will give you one aspect of love. The love of physical touch.
My wife made a decision to love her man, naked, hugs, kisses, feeling, and all. She allowed him to do the same to her. That is the love of physical touch with another human. You are receiving love and giving love of touch.
I admit having sexual thoughts, lust, attraction feelings, even watching a sexy movie getting aroused for other women. My having these feelings does not mean I LOVE those I think about. The line is crossed when you physically touch another. That is when you make the decision to love.
A good book to read is The Five Languages of Love.
You need to somehow embrace that bad things happen to everyone. It is part of life. These are the GIVENS in life we all face at some point in our lives.
Things don’t always go according to plan
Life is not always fair
Everything Changes and Ends
Pain is part of life
People are not loving and loyal All of the Time
You can only get refuge from these givens if you allow yourself help.
A chart from a good book I read The Five Things We Cannot Change… by David Richo
If you can adopt these in your life, you can love yourself, love your life, find some happiness again. Just feel the pain for now is my advice. Allow it to happen.
You love art... express you pain in your art... Your goal is to be that oak. Even in strong winds a branch can snap, sap can pour, but that sap does dry, and the bark does wrap around that wound.
[This message edited by trynhard at 6:12 AM, March 5th (Saturday)]
I completely disagree. She gave me the heebie-jeebies.
She gave me the horrors
Nell & Laura - thank you for the laugh & support - that cracks me up. Of course, I did choose the most heinous pics of her I could find - there were SOME conservative ones, but most were like the ones I shared with you.
Anyway -point is my H found her attractive and that there was nothing wrong with the way she dressed. So, no matter what I think, that will always sting. I am in the process however of not caring what he thinks, so I'm sure she will be a memory to me soon enough - unless of course he is stupid enough to bring her around me and/or the kids. But my reaction to such an event has already been discussed with my H. He would be a fool to do it. Date whom you like, but dont parade her around me and expect me to be civil about it.
Laura - I like the way you approached the topic of comparing us to OW. Much more sensible. That is the way I think of it, it just always bothered me that my H didn't see it that way, he never said anything bad about her EVER. I don't believe he even acknowledged that she did something wrong (because she was single).
Henny - didn't realize you got a confession. That IS great. That is such a difference. It really does. Many of us here have had to do serious investigation before confronting only to receive TT or denials in return, which prompting more doubt and more investigating, and well, it's not fun. Certainly does nothing to restore trust or the belief that you know "everything".
Please check in and let us know you are ok.
Miracle- I can't believe your daughter is leaving! That is hard not to worry about her when she is so far away, but I'm sure she will be ok.
AND WHERE THE HELL IS DIP AND ATS AND DP????? On some gator huntin, ass kickin, grillin adventure? ANd they didnt' tell us?!?
Check in boys please.
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 6:15 AM, March 5th (Saturday)]
Somehow, to be a peace, you are going to need to accept that too, unless of course she become abusive to your kids.
I hope you are doing OK. And I thought your OW was pretty nice. My W's OM was too. I'm OK with that. Nothing we can do about it anyway. Wasn't them that "FORCED" them into that relationship. It was our spouses.
I was pulling a test. I have not been posting, waiting to see who missed me first. YOU WIN! That was so sweet of you to think about me. I figured it would take 3 to 6 months before anyone noticed I was MIA.
You or the OW? I would pick you every time. NO CONTEST! I am NOT saying that because you were the first to notice I was MIA.
Hugs to the tribe.
After a not so great week and a long day, FWW and I had a great night last night. No details, but a can of 30 proof whipped cream can be more fun than you might think.
This morning (after getting me breakfast in bed) FWW talked of feeling like this is home for us now, not just the house, but our lives here. Yesterday she drove to pick up DS18 in the town we lived in prior to here. Since moving here, she has fantisized of escaping to that town. She invited one OM to travel there with her, and she met other OM there a couple of times for weekends. After dday she had plans, or at least thought about, moving back there. A friend was helping her look for work there. Now, she says that she is really valuing what we are building here, and our life.
Tonight we are going out to hear a favorite band at a waterfront dive north of here.
allgood, I am with the others in the opinion you win hands down in any comparison with his OW. There is a real difference between sensual and skank.
It is interesting what we project and feel about the OPs in our lives. Being married to an OW is certainly a different perspective than the standard on SI. I think the reality is that our WS and the OP were/are both broken and needy people who needed external validation. While I do not expect they will do so, I belive that my WW's OM could "fix" themselves too if they really did the work to figure out why having an A with a married mother of 4 was a good idea to them.
allgood, I would be suprised to see a sustained relationship with Mr. nogood and his OW, but I would not be suprised to see her remain in his life as the two of you move on and he begins exploring new relationships. She will be a security blanket for him confirming to him that he has value.
Hugs to the Tribe
As far as letting others know, Are you going to be a liar when someone asked why? I hope not.
I would hold your head high, say, My H commited infidelity. Then smile, "I am ready to begin my new happiness" (Enough said, Everyone can understand those words, not need to give any dirty details)
My SIL is the OW. She and my W's brother were having an affair and it was exposed during my X-SIL Pregnancy.
Guess what? My W's mother hated OW now SIL.. but time heals. It is water under the bridge. I have never really thought of my SIL as a great woman. But she is around. My X SIL has remarried, became a nurse, and I know is very happy. Good for her. At times, we all get togather. No conflict, laughing, good conversation.
My BIL said just 2 years ago, the biggest mistake made in life was his infidelity. His advice to me when he found out, just make a strong effort to show his sister love and desire. At these times, you push away. The opposit of what he suggested. It is what it is...
Me, At that time my BIL and XSIL D'd... I was Oblivious!
ats.. Just live life! Have fun tonight!
[This message edited by trynhard at 10:49 AM, March 5th (Saturday)]