I don't like cliffhangers.... Lol.
I'm going to try to talk to him about his feelings of what money MEANS to him (money = status and respect) and tell him my feelins of what money MEANS to me (money = security) in the hopes that if he can understand where we're both coming from (feelings) that we can come up with a mutually-satisfying solution, as opposed to having yet another pointless argument about who is wronger.
That is a very adult and well reasoned approach, especially since you are so right and he is so wrong.
Our MC said that sexual intimacy between a couple is one of the first things to leave when there are problems, and one of the last to return when issues are being resolved. I am going to quietly hope that events over the last couple of weeks may indicate a light at the end of the tunnel, or at least another corner rounded, between FWW and I.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 1:19 PM, March 8th (Tuesday)]
...WH just called; he's not feeling well and is on his way home. Probably won't talk today, after all. Darn. I was so looking forward to it.
My aunt passed peacefully at 2.30pm Aust Eastern Standard time today( about 10.30pm Tues night your time). She has not been conscious for the last three days.
I have been trying not to think about whether OW2 was looking after her when she went. Really hope she wasn't assigned her room!
She was a very conservative faithfilled lady. She never married. I wonder what she's thinking about my FWH's shenanigans in heaven
Hope she's not too disapproving of my newly acquired use of the "f" word (and some others I daren't even use here. )
For those of you who are Christian her favourite prayer was the "Hail Mary". Perhaps you could say one for her.
Thanks to all for your support - I really do appreciate it.
With a little luck I'll catch up on the antics of your FWHs (the "f" standing for whichever is appropriate ) on the weekend. Between work and organising the funeral I'll be a bit busy in the coming days.
Love to all
On a lighter note...
"the antics of your FWHs (the "f" standing for whichever is appropriate"
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 5:52 AM, March 9th (Wednesday)]
I did some hot yoga last night and feel much better today... WH and I did not talk yesterday. I gots nothin'.
Funny, that's how I think of his business, too... he could make it into something, but stick-to-it-iveness when things get hard is not one of his strong suits. I think he loves the idea of owning his own busienss, but I'm not sure about his ability to deal with the hard, cold reality.
I hope so, too.
hail mary said!
good morning tribe...at least its morning here in this part of the world....
good luck with the talk nell whenever it takes place....
Hugs to the tribe...I know you all need it!!!
As for me, all good things must come to an end, and so we are off the resent peak. Nothing to do now but put my hands up in the air and enjoy the ride back down. I made the mistake of telling her I was still bothered by lingereing doubts about OM1 and bil. Despite her saying it is OK to ask/share thinkgs, I knew it would not be. She asked if this was my way of ending things, suggested we make changes to eliminate the doing so well in order to diminish the lows of the very dark days. She slept on the couch.
ETA: her IC session for Friday was cancelled to make room for a dental appointment, so not IC for her until next Friday.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 7:23 AM, March 9th (Wednesday)]
ats - I'm so sorry that the coaster is rolling downhill this time. And IMHO you did not make a mistake in telling your W that you still have doubts. This is all about being HONEST with our spouses. Us with them, them with us. I don't know about you but I don't want to be in marriage where I can't talk to my spouse about anything...even things that are potentially painful to my spouse. I'm betting that you did not scream questions at your W, did not yell and throw things, but calmly said that you still have doubts and could she answer a few questions. I'm sure she's tired of the whole mess.....but so are you. She is so lucky to have a H that is willing to stay and actively work with her to R. Hang in there...if anyone can overcome you and Mrs. ats can.
I'm sorry. The death of a loved one is never easy. Hugs to you.
Sometimes it is not the question asked but the time it was asked. Sometimes you just have no way of knowing the correct time. You can get the coaster headed back up. I know you have the knowledge and ability to do that. Hang in there.
Hugs to the tribe.
Well, I really want to say that I completely appreciate all your responses. I haven't gone back through my copy of Too Good to Leave too Bad to Stay to check out those questions, but I will.
I ordered two more books by the writer of Boundaries and read a good portion of each of them yesterday. One is about Mom issues (which WH and I both have, but also for me I ordered it more for my own mothering, because I'm having some trouble with The Pasha and I decided to go the the family counselor (starting this Friday) and work on parenting and also on time management.) The other is a book about how to tell whether or not there is any point to giving someone a second chance, either at work or in relationships.
This book was very helpful for me. (Yes, I am a speed reader...)
Anyway, one thing I liked in it is that they guy wrote -- and admitted it's a simplification -- that there are three basic types of people. Wise people -- who accept criticism, feedback and help. Change is hard, and this may still take a while for them to truly change, and they may have to hit upon a few different things before they find what works. Foolish people -- they cannot be reasoned with and only respond to consequences. These people manipulate, blame-shift, deflect, etc. Finally, Evil people. These people truly are out to destroy you, you are more than collateral damage with these people. The ONLY thing these people respond to is lawyers, guns (police) and money. Period. And you need to just get them out of your life as fast as possible. (OW in my case.)
Anyway, in that vein, the entire thing my new IC has been trying to discern is whether I'm dealing with a foolish person or an evil person. Seriously. If you'll recall, he wanted to spend the entire session I had with him after meeting
WH quizzing me down to try to figure out if WH is a sociopath.
Reason being -- you need to deal with that a lot more harshly and carefully.
Anyway -- to end the cliffhanger. I've thought over your advice and what I've read and the Mom book talks about men becoming split when they have certain kinds of mother problems growing up. And I think this is part of what is going on with WH. We've all at one point said he seems like two different people. It talks about a love/sex split, where they can't bring themselves to be fully sexual with a woman they love, and where they start confusing their wife with their mother's traits -- and other things too.
Look, his problems are his problems and I've reached a point in my life where I care primarily about how the effect me and how to make them not effect me. So, I won't blather on about that.
These books have helped me identify my own problems. Where I'm foolish. Where I bear blame for the bad state of the marriage. How to fix those things... etc.
So -- plan of action:
(1) Change my insurance, retirement, health care proxy, etc. so that my sister is in charge of all that. That will protect the kids if I die prematurely.
(2) I will give WH the choice of a postnup that divides our finances and splits everything 50/50. This will protect my financial situation. My attorney says the agreement can insure that I get half of whatever his salary and my salary lumped together are. If WH won't do a postnup I will file for D. He will see this as manipulative and coercive. I will point out to him that he has a choice. He might not like his options, but he's the one who made the choices that led me to the point where he has lost my trust and I'm only comfortable remaining in the relationship if our lives are negotiated in a way that is a contract engforceable in a court of law. He can be as pissed as he wants to be. It will problably upset me, but ultimately it is my minimal effective response. It is the bare minimum change I need to feel better about the situation.
(3) He may choose to buy the new house alone and bear all the expenses for it or to buy it with only his name on the mortgage but with joint title and the expenses for it will be family expenses -- and I have the first right to buy him out for half the equity in the event of a D.
(4) The boat will be a family expense. The family will pay for the payments, insurance, and necessary repairs and maintenance. Upgrades are at each of our discretion and we each may chip in for them or not. So, for example, our windlass broke last year. I would pay for half of something like that. If he wants expensive equipment for it (electronics, etc.) I might pay for half or not. Etc. In the event of a D he can buy me out of the boat for 1/2 the difference between what we initially paid for it minus the remaining balance on the boat loan, or the boat will be sold.
(5) He needs to behave on special occasions or skip them altogether. We're not required to spend special occasions with him.
(6) Finally, if we do D I'm just going to give everything to the lawyer and tell her to get me as much $ as possible. I will also go NC except kids and finances.
(7) Oh, and the post-nup will have a clause that a D will be controlled by Virginia law and that I will get 70% of any joint assets if the D is based on additional infidelity.
So, I guess I think he's more foolish, but I'm going to split the difference and go with lawyers and $ for the consequence.
Oh, and if he chooses the post-nup I'm going to work really, really hard on tryn's list of everything. Only fair.
He's just that guy -- he doesn't want to put in effort on things, he always just wants to write someone a check. So, I'm going to say, you usually want to solve your problems by writing a check. I can make you do X, Y, Z for R -- so this is the bill. I don't think you're particularly remorseful, and I suspect that unless you choose to get some real help and make more changes rather than working on the Charlie Sheen "cure myself" school of infidelity recovery that it is more likely than not that you will continue to be an adulter and lose this marriage. I hope that is not the case, but I'm just going to settle once and for all exactly what that's going to look like for you and for me if you make that choice.
And yes, Nell, you are right.
Ta da! Now to execute the plan. And to remind myself over and over again that it's inappropriate for me to feel bad about my plan.
M3: Sounds like a good plan. Wait a few days, reread it again and make sure there is nothing else you want to add/remove/change.
As for me, the rollercoaster started again just when I thought I was on more level ground. Actually, I think it was more mourning and grieving. There was a little ember of hope that was always dying and then get fanned again and grew a bit.
This time it is completely out. The hope has died completely. It was a false hope, I know, and really toxic in the long run.
So, I'm grieving. It's not the all out crying my eyes out, but more of the silent tears that run down your cheeks. Just a deep sadness, but not debilitating.
I was going to try to keep myself busy and ignore it, but as Miracle so often says, the only way is to go through it.
Love and peace to the tribe.
other then that i say well done...and executing it is definitely the harder part...
ats: i ditto dip....
did you hear that dip, once i again i agree with you..
honest: that rollercoaster does suck doesn't it...i think i am myself was on a bit of dip too....i had a few catalysts....i am hoping that things for me will be on a more even keel....and yes we need to feel it to heal it....
and for you and i, i think we need to be always prepared for the morons we are married too...neither one wants ending to marriage, neither one "sees" everything or anything that they would have needed to "see" to reverse that and hoping for it is not only wasting more time, but it is detrimental to our healing....letting go, not just of the marriage butof the hope that it could be different, past or present...letting go of the hope that they will change or see, or even be better people and let us go....and do right by us....they never did do right by us and they are not about to start now.....so we need to "see" them for who they really are, not who they could be or even could have been....we need to let go of the control...we can only control who we are and what we do.....
control is the hard one for me to crack...its always been my mission to make him the father i never had....aha moment here...i think that is why i never stopped trying to change him into a better dad...not just because i loved my kids and wanted that for them, but for me too......his being the best dad he could be i think would have been healing an old hurt for me....and my children would benefit in the best way, they would surely have the life i always wished i had....and in a way they already did have that life....just not the dad part the way i had hoped....and i think finding out what kind of a man he truly was crushed that for me and for them.....and to "see" for the first time that i married a man and had children with a man who was a terrible father...strangely though i do not feel guilt over this, because i know rationally that i could not "see" this then.....but i do "see" it now.....and i cannot save my kids from who their father is......i could delay it a bit for the boys, not my dd since she already knows enough.....
ok done with my mornin ramblin.....sometimes you just got to ramble and work thru your own shit....
laura: btw when you feel up to it....would love to hear that colorful language...i am always open to new language opportunities...
Yes miracle you made my day. I will be in a good mood for several hours. I don't know if it is the fact that you agree with me or what you said next, which was this. "I think i am myself was on a bit of a dip too." I really do not know what to make of that statement, but I think I like it!?
ETA because of prematurepostulation.
[This message edited by old dipstick at 10:00 AM, March 9th (Wednesday)]
i am quite sure i am afraid to ask, very afraid....
and scarier....i think i "see"
Calm down. I did not mean to scare you.