I read the back and forth about whole truth with interest. Has it helped you to decide what to do?
I have contemplated from time to time calling the woman that WH and OW worked with... she was OW's sounding board and knows much, much more than I ever will about my husband's life for two years. But I don't want to give OW any excuse to contact WH. He's too weak to say NO if she were in his face about it, though he has ignored her calls, as far as I know.
Continued thinking about your sitch last night. The one thing none of us here can talk about is any blocks from feeling that you've done something horrible with your body and now you're being asked to do the same thing, but now it's something wonderful... maybe this is a question for the BS Questions for WSs string? Unfortunately, not a whole lot of WSs go there to weigh in, but there are several who do, and a few of them are WWs who might be able to give you some insight.
I can imagine in her head: oh, atsenaotie is upset, or I did something to anger him, I need to have sex with him or he will not like me and then he might leave. If I have sex with him then he will love me and stay."
Ats and Tryn, I think this is an extremely important aspect of what may be going on. I know I felt this a lot during my M.
Sexuality is a very complicated thing. I think the emotional closeness is very important. If, like in Mrs. At's case, she was sexually abused, it's hard to take away those negative thoughts that are associated with sex. It's good that she is working towards wanting to have that emotional intimacy with you Ats.
Tryn, your wife is a very beautiful woman. I am sure throughout her life she had many, many men come on to her (as a teen, before she met you, etc) and had to put up barriers to protect herself. She may not be feeling sex as emotional intimacy in the same way as you do. Sex therapy may be an option for you two, so that she can learn to let go and enjoy. You said that she said that once you guys get started, she feels it was good. I've said that myself too. When you are a mother of young kids and working full time, you are overwhelmed and tired. I know that I often said that having sex was like being invited to a party that you were too tired to go to, but once you were there, you had a great time!
Laura, I think you really need to decide deep down inside if you really NEED to know everything. And if you do, will there be anything that your WH will say that will be a dealbreaker? If there is, your WH may feel that and is afraid to tell you. If you decide deep down, that there wouldn't be a dealbreaker, then try to make him really believe and feel that you will accept whatever he says, but you NEED to know. This is something only you can decide. Miracle has often said here that once you hear something, you cannot "unhear" it.
As for me, was having anxiety attacks since WH came home.
I know it's mainly because I cannot discuss anything with him right now, mostly because it will not go anywhere because of his jet lag.
Had a mini meltdown yesterday, that I hid from WH. The power window of the car was broken and I went to fix it at the mechanic's. I do everything. But when it's car related, deep down I feel it's a "man's job". I've always done it, but since WH was here, I felt he should do it.
So, the idiot I am, went to do it myself resenting it the whole time, and feeling so angry and jealous that WH does everything for OW.
Ok, I'm rambling, I should have spoken up. I have to detach. I really thought I had more time before he was coming home to really heal and detach. I guess that is my answer. We need to separate so I can heal.
I want something I cannot have and he dangles a carrot in front of me.
I'm a mess and confused with too many emotions. All the emotions I put a lid on are breaking loose like a volcano and I can't seem to deal with any of them.
Nofun, I hope you CAN have some fun on your trip.
I guess the best way to describe it is to say that before WH was very shy, would blush like crazy and protest if I said something naughty, rarely kissed me and was a bit detached - very focused on having stamina and no matter what I tried wouldn't really "let go" and just be in the moment so to speak.
Last night was like being with a totally different person, it was passionate in a way I had resigned myself many years ago to never experiencing again. Then, of course, he was immediately embarrassed, but less than in the past.
I don't know - am I reading too much into all that? I just think a different, better, more passionate and less "proper" sex life means something.
What do y'all think?
Honest: hang in there And, can't you get away from him when he's here? Can't you let him dosomething with the boys &go do something for yourself?
My W and I talked more when she got home. I don’t want to S. She said she didn’t want to S. During our emotional discussion yesterday morning, she heard, “I was never at peace.” I said, “I have not had a day go by at total peace.” So her solution was to leave, run.. thus S word.
Over these past several months, I have been describing my feelings and how I believe some things she can do will make me have better feelings. (i.e. initiate sex). She hears me, but the fact is that she just has zero desire to initiate. This desire has be very little for a long time. I guess over 10 years. The only time she begins to enjoy sex is after we get started and that is most of the time. There are times she only does it for me and some times, it’s like, let’s get this over.
She said much of the time she feels this “pressure” to have sex. It is not a good feeling to her. She loves this feeling of no pressure we have when we just “cuddle”, but in her mind, she always thinks I am going to initiate something. Her fear is when she says NO, is this pressure, because she thinks I deserve to have sex. She cannot say no because of what she has done to me. We have expressed feeling over sex with each other.
Some History of things I did. My W by my calculations had sex with OM over 300 times. In my rage and anger, I said that was mine, not his to have. It was theft and the cruelest thing woman could do to any man, to say NO at least 300 times, lying, while giving it to someone else. Her lies and inability to tell me about someone else denied me a chance to have something so precious to me. Many more ugly things have spewed from my mouth in the anger and hurt. It is no wonder she doesn’t want to say NO.
She still has tremendous guilt over things she has done in her life. She tries to place it within somewhere in her mind but it always present. She too has had very few days at total peace.
Having a degree in Psychology and studying therapy, she feels the mistakes she has made in life will only lead to 10 years of IC only to discover she’s staying with me only out of guilt.
She says things were missing with our marriage since not long after we got married. She regrets being submissive in our whole marriage doing things she was “supposed” to do. The submissive part was to follow me with my job moving away from her mom, dad, and her extensive family. Submissive in her affairs.
She somehow believes having her family around would have helped her but I think today it is more about comfort.
Now, she looks at what she did and that time “flew by.” She cannot believe she has done the evilness she did in her life. The pain she has seen me go through makes her want to run away, hide, and ball up in a cocoon. She cannot believe forgiveness can happen over what she has done. She doesn’t know why I am still with her. I tell her but it doesn't matter.
So we talked about what forgiveness is. I told her of course I have forgiven her. I do everything not to make her feel guilty. I do everything to defend her. I told her I thought I was doing a good job at this process.
Anyway, it ended with me comparing my feelings a year ago to today. No doubt I am much healthier, much stonger, and much more forgiving. So, I think we compromised. I said NEVER say yes to me unless you want to make love. Just say NO. If I get angry, it falls on me. Just say NO. If I bug you, say, NO. I will work on myself and you work on yourself.
We then held each other while we watched the movie Burlesque (It was good). Afterwards, I said I wanted to make love, she said yes.
Pretty F’d up, huh?
I have often thought about what that thing is called "missing". What I conclude is that it is attention. It is all those good feelings you have when others make you feel good. It can lead to sex. I love attention. I love sex.
I am pretty sure had the right woman day in and day out flirting with me, I too would have flirted back and eventually eaten the apple.
For some reason, God never presented the right situation. Those caught in a weakness, say Yes.
[This message edited by trynhard at 8:55 AM, March 23rd (Wednesday)]
learn to let go and enjoy
I never really tried to understand the differences in men and women until now. I'm still confused because I cannot grasp how someone can not want to feel an ejaculation or orgasm. Plus everything about the whole process feels so good.
For me though, I have never sexually cheated. I never fell into a trap by an adult fooling me to having sex, or any homosexually activity. I have always made petty good decisions in my life that protect me from painful events. I suppose my mind is a virgin.
[This message edited by trynhard at 8:49 AM, March 23rd (Wednesday)]
tryn: i am happy to see that you and your wife are sharing these real feelings...no its not "f"ed up....it is life, life is not always pretty, life is not always easy...in fact for most life is messy and life is hard.....but the rewards, the rewards outweigh it all....
your wifes fears are so understandable, hurtful maybe, but understandable....her biggest fear of going to ic and fearing that she will only find out that she is staying out of guilt....well,its either:
she loves you and doesnt want to face that kind of possiblity...sometimes an education can hurt one, it makes you think too hard which is what i think she might be doing...overthinking it....
or...if she felt she was staying out of guilt i would think she would already know it....unless of course she does and doesn't want to do anything about it...
and the latter of course is very hurtful...
its amazing though, you have kept up with telling her that she was forgiven, you believed you were doing a good job, and her perception is that she is not truly forgiven...she senses that you are not totally at peace before i you spoke about it....if you were totally at peace and she felt that she would probably feel as though she were really forgiven as opposed to you trying act your way there....don't know if i am making sense...i feel like i am ramblin....may need to take a break from this one for a bit...come back and reread it later...
honest: i hear you hon....it hurts that he is not the man he should be, the husband he should be, thought he was and even thinks he is...he thinks he is just one awesome husband....so awesome its done it twice...i wish you could get mad at this more then hurt especially while he is here...get mad honest, he is a total fucktard....
i am glad you posted, please try to post more often...you need to get it out here, where you are safe....and i am glad you didn't melt down in front of him...it wouldn't do any good, in fact it would end up hurting you more because of his reaction to it, i know you could probably predict with i would say a 98% accuracy on how he would react....because he's reacted the same every time....
say it..."fuctard"....say it loud, say it clear...."ws you are a fucktard"....and keep saying it....
fun: i like nells suggestion for the bracelet...i think you should get one made, and i think you should tell him just like nell told mr nell....and then i think you need to relax....really relax and let everything just 'be'....hope for at the most a vacation of some relaxation and maybe some good sex, and maybe some peace of not thinking at all and just "be" in the moment the entire time....when you come home you could go back to thinking....
allgood: i am hopin you see some hotties and more importantly they "see" YOU....
m3: i honestly do not know what to make of your sich concerning sex with mr m3...it just sounds to me like the man has issues that are so deep he needs one of those big trucks to be able to dig them out...sorry hon...
as for me: i had a good day yesterday til i called my mom, my great aunt has died....she was 95 and with exception to the last couple of months was strong and lived a very full life...and most of it i believe was happy....a few major hurdles, as we all have, but a full life....she was the last of that generation of my family....so her wake will be on fri....her daughter and grandchildren need to travel here from florida....so the reason for the delay...
when i told pfm his reaction was one of great exaggeration as it is with lots of things lately....not in a bad way, just kind of over the top a bit.....not sure what to make of his exaggerations these days...
issues with manchild continue....and i have not a clue anymore...it would seem that this child has chosen a path full of self-sabatoge....not the really bad kind like drugs and stuff....just the academic kind and again not severe...but ever present...he just can't seem to learn from his mistakes, "i" never know what i am talking about and he his hell bent on walking his own path....just like pfm, and pft cannot understand why this "child" cannot learn, why this "child" keeps making the same mistakes... maybe because he just like YOU...but what the fuck do i know....
have a good day tribe
and ukgirl...good to hear from you, you were missed...
the brain is the most powerful sexual part of the human anatomy...without the mind sex does not happen....for women, the emotions are right up there intertwined with the brain....and if its all not in the same place, we don't want it...
way back when i was so into sex, loved it, couldn't get enough of it....slowly over time being married to pfm my sex drive began to change...emotional abuse is powerful...however the nite i became a hole, my sex drive was completely GONE...he killed it with that act....right after d-day, some 10 years later mind you...its back and its back with a vengence....it was like my emotions and mind needed to protect ME....because on some level i knew i was a hole...after that nite our sex life changed dramatically...and when it happened, i made it all about me...if he showed me for one instant it was about him i pulled the plug...i was never going to be ahole again...little did i know i still was....that i didn't learn obviously til after d-day...
anyways..the point...the mind body connection is HUGE....and it all needs to fit for most women...
Iwant - your manchild sounds just like my son did at his age. If it helps any, my son is now 26 and finally starting to mature. He's a good kid, no drugs, no drinking...just a wild child he was and sometimes still is. Oh and not to mention, how stupid he thought his mother was.
Nell, I am going to take your advice. My girlfriend actually gave me a book after Dday titled "just be calm".
Thanks guys for all your adivice.
I am pretty sure had the right woman day in and day out flirting with me, I too would have flirted back and eventually eaten the apple.
I had someone being very flirty with me over a long period of time - we just didn't see each other often. During the course of my H's A, our marriage really was dead. It was nice to have that kind of attention from a man. It felt good. I thought about it a lot. I dreamed/fantasized about acting on it, but I always ended these little dreams with, but then I would lose my H.
Now, as it turns out, it was left at flirting. But I too wonder, had he taken the flirting to the next step, would I have resisted? I can't say for sure I would have. I do, know, however, that if I did act on it - it would've been a one time thing. I would not be able to live a double life.
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 4:14 PM, March 23rd (Wednesday)]
would you really have thought "the right woman" would drop her panties for a married man?
I had a customer who said things to me. She would stand behind me, press against me. Put her hand on me. I knew exactly what she was doing. I was attracted to her too. She was newly divorced. That might have been about the time my W started her A. I gave it a thought back then. Only a thought, a fantasy.
Had timing been different and it was right at the end, a few days or months before Dday. Yes. I could have eaten the apple.
That was me.
That is exactly where my W's head was when she started her A. In her case, once it started, it stopped, the started, then stopped and then full blown A... the stopped because he cheated on her.. then started again.. It's nuts.
See, a healthy marriage and person is someone that knows how to tell the spouse. I am having feelings for someone else. Can anybody do that?
[This message edited by trynhard at 7:00 PM, March 23rd (Wednesday)]
Yes. I could have eaten the apple.
Trying you could have but you didnt. Why because you have boundaries by which you live your life. Could have, would have doesnt matter - you didnt. You lived by the set of rules that you have established for yourself.
You think you could have but would you have really compromised those values that are so dear to you. I think not.
Both you & your wife have identified the issues in your relationship & worked hard in making your relationship different to what it was before.
There is still work to be done but as you've shown open & honest communication is the key to builing a better marraige & life.
Ok went to the doctor to get some AD's to lift me from my flatness - instead was referred to a psychologist for 3 hrs so I'm done for the day but feeling pretty good & reflective.
[This message edited by deeppurple at 10:00 PM, March 23rd (Wednesday)]
My depression joke of the day (real life story) when I went in to see my first P doc, just miserable beyond belief, scared they would hospitalize me, scared they would send me home, ( and with the then 3 year old Pharaoh with me because the poor guy had a 101 fever, I 'd waited over a month for the appointment but WH couldn't be bothered to change his plans to take care of the little guy)
Anyway, she diagnosed me as bipolar and said: "well, the bad news is you're really sick. The good news is that you get all the really good drugs."
Ok I think it was funny.
Anyway, she later told me that she knew instantly that I would get better and I asked her why. She said it was because of The Pharaoh. I was a raging mess, but he was clean, very healthy notwithstanding the fever from his little cold, we had a healthy attachment to each other -- plus I had a good job and was getting good grades in school -- she said it was obvious that I had some unusual inner strength.
Every one of you has that too. Don't play the "what if?" game with the past. It's not one you can win. BS's want to think what if I had/hadn't done x,y,z?
Friends, your very existence is all that is needed on your part to keep your WS from having an A. There are always other, better solutions to any relationship problem. There just are. Plus, many WS's are simply cake eaters anyhow.
Ok. Got to turn in. Fell asleep with The Pasha whole reading his bedtime stories and woke up 4 1/2 hours later to a little boy farting in my face. People keep telling me I'm going to miss these days, but before I do I think I'm gonna feed that kid more fiber...
There have been so many very heavy discussions going on here...that I need to really think about them before I chime in.
So, for now...just sending out some long distance hugs.