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User Topic: Spouses/Partners of Sex Addicts 6
copingwithdoubts
♀ Member
Member # 21431
Default  Posted: 9:02 AM, April 26th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I really understand your frustration, Genius. Only you know when enough is enough. No one could say you didn't do your best to make it work.

If he is unwilling to comply with your most basic requests to protect your children ...

NO sexually explicit stuff on our family computer particularly.

then you have every right to end the relationship.

Yet, I KNOW my heart has been in the right place all along and I have particularly tried to do right for my kids.

I so hear you what you are saying ... it's like leading your children through a minefield! There is the potential for harm in every direction ... how can you possibly map a safe route for them to emerge unscathed?

I'm really hoping you find some peace with whatever you decide. No judgemnets here, Genius. Just lots of empathy.




Posts: 349 | Registered: Oct 2008
GeniusOrAFool
♀ Member
Member # 30940
Default  Posted: 9:50 AM, April 26th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

copingwithdoubts,

Thanks for your reply.
I just think I am 'burnt out'. Spent. It just seems that no matter what consideration I extend to him in the hopes that he is finally getting it and doing the right things for the right reasons, he never fails to undo all that appears 'good' and replaces it with the more likely reality that he is still just saying/doing what it takes to save his own ass from loss/pain.

I just cannot believe that he is serious about his committment to recovery or me when he bypasses the web filter while pretending he is so happy to have it in place.

Uuggghhh....

I admire all the women (and men) out there who have perservered through years of bs...and, somehow, have happy, healty marriages now.
I am not sure how it happens, but, apparently, it does...couples do R after infideltiy and SA's do gain sobriety. It does happen. But, it is a mystery to me...


I'm back together again.
I'm staring in the mirror
and it's been so long
since I've seen you my friend.

~Citizen Cope


Posts: 454 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: PA
OptimisticMe
♀ Member
Member # 30658
Default  Posted: 10:09 AM, April 26th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Same here, Genius. Only you will know when enough is enough. You seem to have your head on straight and I commend you for being such a great mom. You said my husband is a lucky man...so is yours for you giving him the chances that you have given him to get better. And maybe he will, maybe he won't. At least you know you have tried...for you and for your kids.

Because it's what I do, I have to throw out an idea. What if you take all focus off of your husband and focus only on you and your children? Stop trying to "catch" him and assume that he is still acting out (since he obviously is). Do the 180 and work at healing yourself from the trauma your husband caused you. Treat him more like a room mate than a spouse. However, I don't have any suggestions for how to handle your husband acting out on the family computer. That does make it a difficult situation. Could you set up a special family user name for the kids so they wouldn't accidentally stumble across porn?

I understand your frustration and confusion and heart ache. When my husband was still acting out, I felt stuck between a rock and a hard place as well. I didn't know if I should divorce him and risk the damage that could cause our kids, or give him another chance and risk the damage that could cause our kids. I followed my heart...that is all you can do as well. Just know that we are here for you and support you no matter what you decide upon. ((hugs))


Me: 28, BW
Him: 32, WH, Sex Addict
3 kids: 13 DD (his), 4 DD (ours), 2 DS (ours)

Married 8 years.

Hubs is firm in recovery from SA and is like a new man and husband. We are happily reconciling and making great progress...nope, ass is back


Posts: 111 | Registered: Jan 2011
torn2bits
♀ Member
Member # 28376
Default  Posted: 1:07 PM, April 26th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello everyone. Well it sounds like many of us are dealing with the ever apparent "stages" of either recovery or denial.

I have read the last few threads and I have to say that it is weird how my SA's recent behaviour is playing out just as many of your husband's have. The image is so important.

The best advice I can give is that my SA didn't start to see that I was serious about my words until I had him served with D papers at work and made him get an STD test.

I have found the advice of some very wise SI'ers here in the SA forum to be true and comforting. FOCUS on you and your children, YOUR healing! I just came back from vacation with my kids. I took my sister with me. We had a great time while SA stayed home. I have literally stopped checking things, but know he is still messaging OW. He has told me we can't have sex because the depression pills he is on give him ED. He lies, he is doing things for me and even gave me an Easter card. He has trouble communicating. The card said lots of things he could not.

He tries to blame me and I just keep putting it right back on him. I don't allow him to raise his voice to me anymore. I did before. He has not confessed about the A, but he is in great denial and seems to be trying to abstain from sex and anything not on the right track. I left my Don't Call it Love book on the table before I left for vacation and he actually quoted back to me some of the things the book said when I got back.

In a nut shell, we are in 6mos. R track from the D proceedings and we will see where it goes. Any real sensitive issues are dealt with in weekly MC and he has an addiction specialist as his weekly IC.

He knows I am not playing around and I am fully ready to leave if I am not happy. We all need to stand our ground and be firm. They take notice when you no longer cry and you stand up for yourself. Doormat does not work.

I have focused on me and my kids. My life. I am letting him clean up his mess with the SA. His problem. He is out of the house. It has made it so much easier to detach. I figured if I divorced him I would just have to share my kids on holidays, etc. and living in an apartment so as long as he pays the bills and is out of the house, we can work on recovery much more easily.

I let him know what I expect from a husband of mine recently. He has started to step up to the plate.

Hugs to all! FOCUS on YOU and Your Kids!!!!!!!

[This message edited by torn2bits at 2:10 PM, April 26th (Tuesday)]


Me: 44/WH (SA): 49
M: 24 years 3 kids over 10 yrs old
EA/ PA Dec. 2009 -Divorce pending

Posts: 1240 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: Midwest
GeniusOrAFool
♀ Member
Member # 30940
Default  Posted: 1:38 PM, April 26th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OptimisiticMe,

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful reply.

What if you take all focus off of your husband and focus only on you and your children? Stop trying to "catch" him and assume that he is still acting out (since he obviously is). Do the 180 and work at healing yourself from the trauma your husband caused you. Treat him more like a room mate than a spouse.

For me in my situation, doing this would feel like I am going backwards. I already spent 4+ years essentially doing the 180...being a roommate...with the focus on my kids and myself. I had a very amicable relationship with my saWH, but he came 3rd to my kids and myself. I consider those years to be my prime enabling years because I stopped 'bothering' him about him, me, us, the M. This was a gift to him...being a SA. He enjoyed retreating into his SA ... unmonitored...uninterrupted. Of course, at the time, I didn't even know he had a SA because he maintained the behaviors in such secrecy.

If I do that now, I feel like I will be just burrying my head in the sand and participating in pretending his behaviors are nonexistant and/or not a problem.

Then, at every little suspicious behavior, I will assume he was acting out...only without actually monitoring him, I won't know if or how far he has relapsed into the SA. I can't live like that...in that kind of 'fear' of what is going on behind my back and in my home.

Also, there has been additional damage...hurts...over the course of the last 10 months which I cannot ignore. I feel like I must retain some shred of self-respect by maintaining zero tollerance for his disrespect of me and my boundaries in my home. He has been able to manipulate me, trick me, and use me. That has to stop.

I understand the theory behind your proposal. But, it's like I've been there, done that, and all it did was provide a free pass to decend further into his sexual abyss...which is exactly what happened.

My plan, I think, at this point is this: to 'be here' for him as a rock to launch and begin treatment. And, hopefully, he will grow to rely on his CSAT and, hopefully, support group memebers, to be his rock from which to continue forward progress through treatment and recovery. As they take over as his 'rock', I can retreat from that role and file for D without him having some kind of breakdown. He is 3 weeks into treatment with a CSAT, yet has not begun any group involvment...which I thought was part of the 'program'...so I am not sure WHY he has not joined a group yet. I find this worrisome. Anyhow, when I write out my 'plan' like that...it sounds so cold and calous. But, I think I am just realizing more and more each day that he is not the man for me. I will never trust him again. What is a relationship without trust??
He recently lied to me about why he changed the password on our savings/brokerage acct. He's bypassed the web filter several times...and we've only had it for 5 days. And, I just put it together today that he must have downloaded a keylogger to our computer. Why? Is he trying to get the log in information for the web filter ~ the password?? I don't know what he is REALLY doing or thinking...and I am TIRED of trying to figure him out. I don't even want to ask...as he has such a history of lying to me or distorting the truth....how can I EVER believe anything he says anyway?

Thank you, though, as your words are so helpful to me. I thank God for places like this where I/we can openly talk about these difficult issues within the centers of our lives...our marriages...our families.
'It' was never supposed to be like this. I could have never predicted this outcome and fate of my marriage and life. But, there is certainly so much more to life than all this...that's for sure.

Thanks again!


I'm back together again.
I'm staring in the mirror
and it's been so long
since I've seen you my friend.

~Citizen Cope


Posts: 454 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: PA
torn2bits
♀ Member
Member # 28376
Default  Posted: 2:36 PM, April 26th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Genius: I have been where you are, but 6 months after I really knew what was going on.
I scraped up the money to file. It is bad enough they cheat, but then they lie and do not seek recovery. My SA didn't start doing anything, I mean nothing til I filed. It was the best money I spent. Sitting at mediation with the kids woke him up. I told him if I take him back, he has to get busy.

You are right, ignoring means condoning to them. I don't search but instead ask for accountability. Like "I thought you took the van because you are having sex with someone." His actions show me what I need to know about him acting out. I also really tear into him at MC because its safe there. I show him I have nothing to hide and I have a choice to be here.

Your plan sounds like self preservation to me. Living a life instead of worrying and wondering.

I am sorry he is not in recovery, but maybe your new plan, your actions will turn things around.

Take care. Hugs.


Me: 44/WH (SA): 49
M: 24 years 3 kids over 10 yrs old
EA/ PA Dec. 2009 -Divorce pending

Posts: 1240 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: Midwest
momoffive
♀ Member
Member # 27352
Default  Posted: 4:44 AM, April 27th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am just so overwhelmed about all of this.

I saw the "partner" to SAWH CSAT for the first time yesterday. She educates the partners on sex addiction and works to support them.

I just can't fully grasp the working on only "me and my 5 children" concept, especially with SAWH living here. I just feel like we're pretending to have this "normal" family life. Our kids know nothing about WH SA (some just know their dad cheated on me).

My mind keeps thinking SAWH should be showing me he's committed to R and our marriage. I've asked for some simple things to prove to me (mainly deals with communication) and he doesn't do it. This is where I'm confused. If he doesn't show me through some serious conversations, then why are we "pretending" to be married?

I feel like SAWH is "comfortable" with this arrangement. I can't stand it. I am so hurt by him f@#@ing the whore. I am so hurt by the sexting with the "church whore". I feel betrayed by his recent secret texting that he promised he wouldn't do with another woman from our town. I feel his porn viewing and finding out it's been going on for years is betraying me. I am in shock by the things I saw on his results of some "test" he took for the CSAT. SAWH had them laying on a dresser in our bedroom, although he denies endorsing some of the stuff . SAWH now has those papers hidden from me. After seeing the papers, I'm sure there's betrayals I don't even know about, and half-truths about the ones I do know. When will I ever get complete honesty? I have nothing hidden from SAWH. Never had. Why shouldn't I expect the same in return?

So am I to just ignore all that and "work on me". How can I work on healing when the hurt and devastation from his betrayals when all is still there? How can I work on healing when SAWH, the person who did all that to hurt me, is living in the house and unremorseful towards me? How can I live like this when SAWH won't be honest with me?

I can't figure it out.

[This message edited by momoffive at 4:51 AM, April 27th (Wednesday)]


BW 44, SAWH 45(sorry1)
M24 yrs
DD 23,16,13 DS 21, 18
Dday1-7/3/09 EA OW4
Dday2-9/1/09 PA OW4
Dday3 3/14/10 Farmville sexting, OW3
Dday4 3/13/11 Secret texting, would be OW5-she said no
Dday5 8/2/11 PA 10 years ago OW1, kissing 4 years ago OW2

Posts: 1123 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: Pennsylvania
OptimisticMe
♀ Member
Member # 30658
Default  Posted: 7:34 AM, April 27th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Genius: I didn't realize you had already tried that approach. I would be at my wits end, too. Maybe it is time for D, or at least to file. That doesn't necessarily mean it is the end though, that could be what he needs to finally hit rock bottom and decide to get real with recovery (although don't hold your breath). I was VERY serious about a D and filling out the papers and kicking SA out is what sent him to his rock bottom...I got lucky.

momoffive: I don't think I could handle it if SAWH didn't act remorseful...that might have been a deal breaker for me. Have you discussed your feelings with him? What does the CSAT you see say about the lack of remorse? I see remorse as a sign that the SA is in genuine recovery. I don't understand how they can REALLY be in recovery without showing remorse. I think the huge amount of guilt and remorse my husband feels is helping him succeed in recovery. I would speak to the CSAT about the lack of remorse and when you should expect to see it and when you should become suspicious if it does not occur.


Me: 28, BW
Him: 32, WH, Sex Addict
3 kids: 13 DD (his), 4 DD (ours), 2 DS (ours)

Married 8 years.

Hubs is firm in recovery from SA and is like a new man and husband. We are happily reconciling and making great progress...nope, ass is back


Posts: 111 | Registered: Jan 2011
IRN2006
♀ Member
Member # 23717
Default  Posted: 10:07 AM, April 27th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Momof5-

First, a few things. Figure out what you need with full disclosure, and ask when full disclosure will happen with you and your respective therapists in the room. My husband's CSAT told me that if I still had trust issues with regards to acting out behavior, that he would recommend some polygraphers.

For, me, I was able to somewhat emotionally detach from my husband. His addiction was his problem to fix. I was also pregnant, so I had other things to concentrate on. I also let go. I wasn't in a hurry to make a decision on my marriage. One thing I've learned is that life unfolds, as it should, in the time it does. We cannot force this process.

I was able to take a step back and look at our marriage like an impartial 3rd party. It was that skill that allowed me to recognize when I was seeing recovery behaviors consistantly. Then I knew my husband was in recovery.

My husband showed these behaviors at the 9 month mark of his sobriety. At 18 months of sobriety, I began to reasonably trust my husband again.

A few more jumbly thoughts: one about his acting out behavior..are there bottom line acting out behaviors that are deal breakers? For me it was cheating, and any acting out behaviors that were illegal. That's what I wanted to know. The rest of the details, for me didn't make a difference. My husband is still an addict, no matter how he acted out. And, I figured, now that I know his acting out MO, he's likely not to act out that way again, because it's no longer secret. So, if my husband relapses, likely his behavior will escalate in ways that I won't be able to predict. I just have to trust that I'll find out.

The work we need to do on ourselves has many facets..we need to make sure we learn to trust our gut again. We need to make sure that we have good boundaries that protect us, and we need to make sure that we can act upon those boundaries. If I were a SAHM who hadn't worked in 10 years and didn't have any money of my own, divorce wouldn't be a very good boundary for me. I would need to get myself in a position to follow up on my boundaries...

You also need to heal from the PTSD.

Deciding whether or not you want to share your life with an addict, in recovery or not, has nothing to do with your husband. This is only a decision that you can make. You need to get yourself to a point where you can make this decision from a position of strength, ie...based on what's best rather than making this decision based on emotions.


Posts: 1295 | Registered: Apr 2009
GeniusOrAFool
♀ Member
Member # 30940
Default  Posted: 6:25 PM, April 27th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

torn2bits and OptimisticMe,

I guess I am realizing more than ever that I am done. I had waited SO long for my WH to 'return' to me after d-day. He had YEARS of opportunity to bring me in from the curb, but he just left me out there and went on with his life...seemingly happy as can be. It was very hard for me to stay for the kids and face the biggest 'trigger' every day...my WH...all the rejection, confusion, lack of care, images, hurt, embodied in him. Staying with him kept it raw. Yet, it was 'easy' to stay because it was for my kids.

Now, at least on the surface, he is being Mr Wonderful Husband. The things he says and does now...should have been said and done 6 yrs ago after d-day. I understand that his SA was an obstacle...a stumbling block for him. But, I think it is just too late for so many reasons. One being that I don't know what is motivating his sudden 'return' to me...other than the fact I was about to file for D...and he realized all the loss/pain he was about to endure. I cannot help but suspect that he is STILL driven by selfishness...and doing what is in HIS best interest...which would be whatever it takes to secure his position 'as is'...in his nice home, image intact, seeing his kids everyday, no financial loss, no gossip, etc, etc.

I will never believe that he is with me for ME. I will always feel a part of the package with the house, image, kids, etc. A necessary 'prop'. And, there is no way to confirm that either way because I cannot see into his mind and heart. All I have to go by are his words and actions...which cannot be trusted.

And, torn2bits, I don't have it in me to do what you do. It sounds like too much work to always have to be on top of what he is doing/his whereabouts/etc. I don't want a marriage like that. I do understand that, hopefully, this is a temporary dynamic for you only until he gets further into recovery. But, I cannot imagine this dynamic for even a brief period.

Like I said, I think it may just be too late for me. His opportunity came and went. He squandered away all that time when I was ripe for R if only he had shown some interest.

Thanks for all your thoughts and words...


I'm back together again.
I'm staring in the mirror
and it's been so long
since I've seen you my friend.

~Citizen Cope


Posts: 454 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: PA
momoffive
♀ Member
Member # 27352
Default  Posted: 7:09 PM, April 27th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((GeniusOrAFool)))

I can hear your exhaustion in your post. I can so relate to your post and the endless chances you've been willing to give your SAWH. The attempt to salvage and rebuild your marriage. The staying for your kids.

The need for some proof that SAWH is desiring to change for himself. Is desiring you. Is remorseful for the pain and anguish you were forced to feel because of his heartless selfish choices. Is wanting, truely wanting an intimate, monogamous relationship with you. The one who has remained faithful to him, has fought for the M, who despite the pain that was inflicted upon her, was showing grace in giving him another chance.

(((GeniusOrAFool)))


BW 44, SAWH 45(sorry1)
M24 yrs
DD 23,16,13 DS 21, 18
Dday1-7/3/09 EA OW4
Dday2-9/1/09 PA OW4
Dday3 3/14/10 Farmville sexting, OW3
Dday4 3/13/11 Secret texting, would be OW5-she said no
Dday5 8/2/11 PA 10 years ago OW1, kissing 4 years ago OW2

Posts: 1123 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: Pennsylvania
momoffive
♀ Member
Member # 27352
Default  Posted: 7:21 PM, April 27th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Another question:

Do I need to change my thinking that dealing with infidelity and betrayals of a SAWH is different in dealing with them of a WH?

Is the demands and requests that the BS makes after dday different with a SAWH than a WH?

My thought process all along has been: I need A,B, and C to show me you're committed to R. My WH wouldn't do it.

Should it be now not any thought of R because with the SA mind and lack of remorse, they aren't capable to do A, B, or C. Or would it be that SAWH is using SA as a crutch so he doesn't have to attempt to do A, B, or C so SAWH can enjoy this "peace" of me not demanding anything due to the "detachment" that I hear I should do.

And wouldn't my "detachment" from SAWH also give him that "peace" he so wants to feel instead of my disgust and anger. I'm afraid it will give SAWH the idea that I'm back to the "don't rock the boat" mentality that I unfortunately used all my married life because I didn't want to upset SAWH.

His "peace" is that he's got his house, is around his kids, does not have the added burden of child and spousal support, I'm still making the meals after working all day, I'm still washing and folding his clothes. So other than sex from me, and apparently he's proven he doesn't even need me for that, he's got everything he needs.

Have I confused all of you yet with my questions?

I'm just really struggling because I will say right now, I hate my life right now. I feel like nothing is ever going to change and I hate it!

[This message edited by momoffive at 7:27 PM, April 27th (Wednesday)]


BW 44, SAWH 45(sorry1)
M24 yrs
DD 23,16,13 DS 21, 18
Dday1-7/3/09 EA OW4
Dday2-9/1/09 PA OW4
Dday3 3/14/10 Farmville sexting, OW3
Dday4 3/13/11 Secret texting, would be OW5-she said no
Dday5 8/2/11 PA 10 years ago OW1, kissing 4 years ago OW2

Posts: 1123 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: Pennsylvania
IRN2006
♀ Member
Member # 23717
Default  Posted: 8:06 PM, April 27th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Mom-

From your last post, I hear that you are concerned about how your husband will feel/act/behave based on disengaging.

Maybe I'm off, but it seems as if your are wanting to choose behavior that will get a response or affect your husband somehow.

The only thing that you can do that may affect your husband is to help him hit rock bottom faster. To me, washing his clothes and cooking for him is not helping your husband hit rock bottom fast. That's showing him that his behavior has no consequences. He still doesn't have to contribute, because your are taking care of that for him.

Other than helping your husband to rock bottom, there's NOTHING you can do that will "help" your husband decide whether or not he wants to recover.

It's a decision he has to make all on his own. You might, though, show him some consequences of his decisions if he chooses not to recover. I would assume, at some point, you may separate, and will not take care of him like you are now, no?

You said nothing will ever change. Maybe. You take care of your street.You do what you need to, and that will be enough change. Let your husband decide whether or not he wants recovery. As crappy as it is, it's HIS decision alone to make.

How are you doing on reading through all the books recommended here? Have you found a therapist? Have you found a 12 step group, even Al-Anon?

How's your boundary work going?

[This message edited by IRN2006 at 8:09 PM, April 27th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 1295 | Registered: Apr 2009
momoffive
♀ Member
Member # 27352
Default  Posted: 5:18 AM, April 28th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Maybe I'm off, but it seems as if your are wanting to choose behavior that will get a response or affect your husband somehow.

You see, before this SA came out in the open, and I thought I was dealing with WH and what he's done on the 4 dday's in my tag line and not all the rest of his shit, I had to in MC come up with what I needed to R. This was my initial list:

The list:
1. Time set aside for meaningful conversations, none of the daily bullshit stuff counts as "meaningful conversations".
2. Some conversations dealing with A, because I'm still so hurt and I need this.
3. Words from my WH letting me know that he wants/loves/desires me (more than his usual roll over in bed, twiddle my tits to let me know he wants sex).
4. Conversations letting me know that he's "working on himself".
5. Serious conversations initiated by WH.
6. The attempt to recognize if I'm feeling sad and triggers (tears are a dead give-away) and instead of ignoring me, ask if he can comfort me and apologize if it fits.
7. Apparent "working your ass off" to "win me back" since you chose to throw it all away for A.
8. Trying to meet my emotional needs, doing housework that you never helped me with before is greatly appreciated, but IMHO is the easy work...now it's time to get to the hard stuff.
9. Make the most of every moment you have... each one not used is another petal fallen off of the flower of a second chance.

When asked what he's done on this list his answers were "nothing" or "nothing, I'm lazy". He also told me he can't feel any remorse for me.

It was making me see WH as not really wanting to R.

So now add SA to the picture. Is what I needed to see now null and void because he's incapable of doing anything on the "R list"? I felt the list was the bare minimum and if I can't even get any of that from SAWH, then I can't get over the thought that I'm feeling complete hopelessness in my M.

SAWH says he needs to "fix himself" first. I do understand that nothing will change until he recovers from SA, but I guess my thought is can't you multi-task? Can't he be working on himself plus trying to prove to me that he does want to R. I just see the "all me" as more selfishness. There's a lot on the list that deals with communication, why can't I expect that from SAWH?

So, take this morning, he rolls on top of me for sex. I have no desire, I can't do it. Not with someone that doesn't show that he really wants to be with me. Not with someone who can't even make an attempt to prove he wants to R by trying to communicate and face what he's done to me.

So once again, I felt this morning like I was supposed to give to SAWH, but I get nothing I need in return. There was no sex in our home today.

Some days I think my head will explode from all of the thoughts and hurt!

[This message edited by momoffive at 5:21 AM, April 28th (Thursday)]


BW 44, SAWH 45(sorry1)
M24 yrs
DD 23,16,13 DS 21, 18
Dday1-7/3/09 EA OW4
Dday2-9/1/09 PA OW4
Dday3 3/14/10 Farmville sexting, OW3
Dday4 3/13/11 Secret texting, would be OW5-she said no
Dday5 8/2/11 PA 10 years ago OW1, kissing 4 years ago OW2

Posts: 1123 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: Pennsylvania
TooManyYears
♀ Member
Member # 26108
Default  Posted: 7:27 AM, April 28th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Other than helping your husband to rock bottom, there's NOTHING you can do that will "help" your husband decide whether or not he wants to recover
.

THIS. If I could say this over and over to everyone of the new people dealing with SA, I would. Getting help and support for yourself, reading the books, seeing IC, joining a 12 step group, setting boundaries, etc., are not to help the addict change. These are things for all of us, to become stronger and to climb out of dysfunction.

I have said it so many times, but will say it again: staying for the kids is a mistake! Addicts are NOT healthy parents. Children from addicted homes do not grow up with healthy ideas. How many of you want your kids to end up married to someone like you SA? None of us want that!

If you would really like part of my story, and to hear the affects on my children (I have made statements concerning how screwed up they are), you can pm me. I always thought that staying for the kids was for the best, but it was not.

[This message edited by TooManyYears at 7:28 AM, April 28th (Thursday)]


Me- 40
H, rSA- 46
2 young adult children
Married 21 years
Last D-day 9/19/09 (Many before this)

Posts: 496 | Registered: Nov 2009
GeniusOrAFool
♀ Member
Member # 30940
Default  Posted: 7:43 AM, April 28th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

momoffive,

Thanks for the hugs...and your understanding. It seems your experience is similar.

I understand this added complication of going from WH to saWH. It makes you question: How many of his choices were out of his control due to the influence of the SA? ~vs~ How many of his choices were just par for the course of a selfish, entitled, shallow, heartless, immature person??

I have the same trouble determining what has influenced and driven my saWH's behaviors and choices.

Is it the illness OR is he just an a$$hole??

Which is it?

I cannot tell.

Now extend that to the expectations after d-day ~ the things you listed. Is your saWH unable to do what you need because he is truely internally crippled with/by SA? ~OR~ Is he just being an insensitive, selfish a$$...because that is who/what he is??

I think many of us BW's feel some degree of empathy and symapthy for our saWH's IF and WHEN we believe that much of their behaviors/choices are 'not their fault' because the SA has control over them...and not vice versa. So, it seems that they were almost helpless against it's influence as it clouded their thinking...skewed their perspectives...twisted their priorities.

I have such a problem with this because I think to myself 'SA or not, my WH is an intelligent ADULT who knows exactly what he is doing. Knows the difference between right and wrong. He was/is in control of his choices. And, he CHOSE to engage in destructive behaviors full well knowing he could lose everything as a result.'

My IC would say 'that's the addiction' and that he sees everything through the lense of addiction...creating distortion, denial, etc.

So...where does that leave us BW's??

I don't know.

But, it does bother me that my now saWH has this card to play. Almost like the SA is an excuse for unacceptable behaviors. Or the presecne of a SA means we BW's should give more allowances...more understanding...more consideration...more patience...more everything.
And, I am not sure where all this is supposed to come from as most humans are not an endless stream of give, give, give, give. There comes a point of depletion...exhaustion...where the barrel is empty. There's just nothing left.

I think it is a gift when a BS discovers the SA shortly after d-day, because if the SA can be more swiftly dealt with by a remorsefull and willing BH, there are not all those months and years that go by which eventually lead to that depletion I talked about. That is what happened to me. There has been so much additional damage (to me) in this lengthy 6 yr aftermath, that I am just spent...emotionally exhausted. The LTA was one thing...and a HUGE thing to overcome. But, add on 6 more years of neglect, etc. It becomes just too much to overcome. And, I don't have it in me to 'give' anymore...the barrel is empty.

I associate so much 'bad' with my saWH...too much bad stuff...that I don't think I could ever 'get over' it all enough to truely put it behind me giving us the fresh start we need.

I am not saying my saWH is a 'bad' man. He is not. And, this knowledge makes it all that much harder...and sad.

I wish you all the best.
(((((momoffive))))


I'm back together again.
I'm staring in the mirror
and it's been so long
since I've seen you my friend.

~Citizen Cope


Posts: 454 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: PA
ShatteredAndDone
♀ Member
Member # 26067
Default  Posted: 7:49 AM, April 28th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So, here I am joining the thread. I have popped over to read a few posts here and there in the last year, but never fully jumped in. I guess even though I knew, I was in denial. So here I am, pulling my head out of the sand and looking to you ladies to see what my next steps are.
The quick overview is in my profile. What it does not say is we saw a CSAT for a few months. He bacame sporadic (one excuse after another). CSAT screwed us out of money and we no longer see him. He changed insurance and I lost my IC. I never found a new one, as I just never had the strength to start over. I start the new search today.
We also tried 3 MC together. Each one was NOT helpful in their style/efforts at all and we were going to keep looking. He has "been looking" for MONTHS now for a new IC. There are no other CSATs around (the last one was over an hour away as it is). I struggle with how to handle this, as I do not believe in the SLA model. When WS was in the group, he completely disengaged/passed the buck and did further damage to us/me/our marriage. On a whole, I struggle with the 12 step, cult like (IMHO) mentality...so I don't know where that leaves me.
So, there it is.


Never make someone your priority, when they only make you an option.
Trust the instinct to the end, though you can render no reason. - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Posts: 1476 | Registered: Nov 2009
TooManyYears
♀ Member
Member # 26108
Default  Posted: 8:02 AM, April 28th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

GeniusOrAFool,

I want to tell you that I think you are at a critical point. You have realized that the way that you have been living for years is not healthy. I lived that way for almost the first 10 years after I found out about my H's SA. I lived in a detached "roommate" situation where we did not sleep together or have any sort of emotional intimacy but coexisted as parents. This was so unhealthy for me, for him, and especially damaged our children. Addicts are NOT good parents, and growing up in a household of addiction is not healthy. I thought that I could wait until the kids were out of the house to leave him, so I didn't screw up their childhood. Well, that didn't quite turn out the way I planned.

I think your idea of "being a rock" for your WH in recovery is a mistake. We are not there to be their rock. Their CSAT and 12 step group needs to be their support. It is a codependent notion that we can fill that role, because we cannot. I also think that if your WH is going to choose to act out, he can easily do that at home, so the idea of allowing him to be at home to make his recovery easier is a fallacy as well. I am not saying that he wouldn't chose to act out if he moved out, but it may help him hit rock bottom and may be more comfortable for you right now.

My H and I separated for 3 months after the last d-day. When I could see that he was working the steps, seeing his CSAT, going to group, and that his behaviors were changing (he wanted to have conversations about important things), I felt safe enough to let him back. This has not been smooth; our kids are still very disappointed in him and have lost a lot of respect for him, me, and the idea of family. But on the whole, we are happier and so much has changed in all of our lives for the better. We are a work in progress, but real recovery has made all the difference.

I think it is ok for you to look out for yourself at this time. Get your finances in order, work on your exit strategy, and become healthier. Best case scenario, your WH enters a real recovery and you are in a stronger and healthier position. In the worst case scenario, you are prepared. Either option is empowering.


Me- 40
H, rSA- 46
2 young adult children
Married 21 years
Last D-day 9/19/09 (Many before this)

Posts: 496 | Registered: Nov 2009
TooManyYears
♀ Member
Member # 26108
Default  Posted: 8:21 AM, April 28th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Momoffive,

While it is true that SA's are not able to empathize and connect intimately with others, I think you are within your rights to have certain expectations. I am very sorry to say this (and it is just MHO), but I do not feel that your WH has hit rock bottom or really is interested in embracing recovery.

He continues to be manipulative (the whole incident you described in a previous post with hitting his hand and his references to suicide). Frankly, I think even sleeping with him does not set a clear boundary, when you say he tried to get you to have sex with him this morning. I do think that you need to detach and disengage right now. If his actions begin to show you that he is entering recovery, you can reevaluate.

IRN2006 is right, in that you seem to be expecting him to respond to your demands. You are well within your right to make these demands of him! I see nothing on this list that he cannot start trying to do. SA is NOT a free pass! But a SA is either in recovery or not in recovery. If he is not going to choose recovery, he isn't going to do the things you want him to. This is where SA complicates the WH angle. SA's do have a lot to work on. And yes, a SA who is not in a real recovery is a manipulative asshole.

So, my question to you (along with IRN2006's) is what are you going to do? YOU have choices. You don't have to sit there and take his asshole behavior. You can set boundaries and enforce them. You can make him move to another room. Boundaries are NOT to change his behavior, though. They are to help you to detach and become healthier. As I told GeniusOrAFool in the last post, you need to work on yourself. Work on becoming healthier, financially stable, and find the support you need. This way you will be in a better position no matter what the outcome. I think that you need to let go. I think you are still hoping that something you do will help him choose recovery, but that is his decision at this point.


Me- 40
H, rSA- 46
2 young adult children
Married 21 years
Last D-day 9/19/09 (Many before this)

Posts: 496 | Registered: Nov 2009
OptimisticMe
♀ Member
Member # 30658
Default  Posted: 8:30 AM, April 28th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

momoffive: I don't know what the differences between recovering from an A with a WH vs a SAWH are "supposed" to be. However, I will just tell you a bit of my story for an example.

We had multiple ddays with no admission of wrong doing followed by more bad behavior. The last A I was finally "sure" he cheated and kicked his ass out. First he denied, then he accepted I was gone, then after I started talking to a guy friend, he started begging me to give him a final chance. In other words, he finally reached rock bottom and realized I wouldn't just forgive him again. He made a noticeable change and I allowed him to come home and we went to MC. At this point, SA hadn't crossed my mind. It was painful dealing with the As. Then SA was mentioned and I blamed everything on SA. It made my day to day life SO much easier. When the As popped in my head, I just told myself it wasn't his fault...oh my poor SAWH had no control. I didn't ask too many questions because I didn't want to hurt him (WTH?) Then we stopped talking about SA and it fell under the radar. Then I stopped saying "oh poor SAWH". This is when the REAL healing began (and when my days were pure hell-couldn't focus on anything but the As, couldn't get my work done, couldn't handle household chores, etc). At the time he had admitted to 2 As. At first the 2nd one bothered me the most and I had crazy days full of questions about it. Then when my questions were answered I felt the 1st A was worse and had crazy days and asked tons of questions about it. Then I was sure there were more and he admitted to 2 more. Then I went through a stage where one of those was "the worst" and then had my questions answered and then the other one was "worse" until I had those questions answered. So I dealt with the As as if my H was NOT a SA. If you can handle the pain as if he was just a demented asshole, then you can handle the pain even better when you discover there was a force pushing them along (SA). Now that I know SA was an issue, I see the ways in which things progressed, I see how ever so slightly pushing his boundaries and justifying could make it easy for him to have As. I see that a porn habit developed into a sexting habit and then he was curious about the real thing and that lead to the real thing. I have empathy and sympathy for SAWH, but he owns his shit. He says he thinks he could have controlled himself better...BINGO! They had choices, they could have gotten help, they could have admitted what they were doing as that would make shit hit the fan and make them HAVE to change.

Overall, I see it as the SA made it a bit easier for them to cheat and a bit harder for them to stop. But they still know right from wrong...they may justify things and tell themselves it is ok...but they KNOW. I have read that they need to admit they are out of control...and maybe they are...but I don't take all of the blame off the SAWH. The addiction is to blame, but the addict is to blame as well IMO.

I see absolutely NO reason why your SAWH can't help you with all of the things that were on your list...mine did. But mine had reached rock bottom...the comment "nothing, I'm lazy" shows that yours is not remorseful. A remorseful SAWH would never say that. He is making excuses and being a selfish asshole in my opinion. If I were in your shoes, I would say, "OK, you have done nothing because you are too lazy. Obviously you are too lazy and selfish to give me what I need and to fix what YOU broke. Get out and don't come back until you can commit yourself to that list every f***ing day of your life". And then I would kick him out and do the 180 passionately. SAs don't want divorced, they are scared to be alone just like we are...you just have to convince him that he WILL be alone if he doesn't shape up. I told mine over and over again, "I will always love you, but I can't be in a relationship with you because you are not healthy for me the way you are right now". That let him know I loved him and gave him an inkling of hope for us, but showed him I would not stay with him without change. Kicking him out was the best thing I ever did for him and for us.

And TooManyYears is right, addicts are LOUSY parents. The CSAT we are seeing made that abundantly clear. Your kids growing up with an addict will very likely be addicts of some kind. Addicts are not capable of emitting genuine feelings of love...feeling loved is the one thing kids need. I kept telling myself SA was a good dad...but in hindsight he was NOT. Now he is learning how. He has also taken over all of the bill paying and does maybe 45% of the work for the kids. They can improve and become a partner IF they get healthy. I don't think yours has reached rock bottom or gotten real with his recovery yet...sounds like he is just hoping it will pass.


Me: 28, BW
Him: 32, WH, Sex Addict
3 kids: 13 DD (his), 4 DD (ours), 2 DS (ours)

Married 8 years.

Hubs is firm in recovery from SA and is like a new man and husband. We are happily reconciling and making great progress...nope, ass is back


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