Laura: Good that H told you about OW contact. I don't believe for a second that was what she really wanted to say to him. I take it as more of a feeling him out to see if he'll converse kind of thing. Idk - watch that biatch CLOSELY. Lol.
I agree 100%. The bitch has fished before. I have to say also that after I posted I thought about how he responded when she approached: "I am not supposed to talk to you"
I don't plan to make a big deal of this (I'm very conscious of not discouraging him from telling me about encounters) but if he brings it up again later I plan to quietly say that if it happens again I would be happier if you said "I DON'T WANT to talk to you" KWIM????
I thought that video was funny.
Laura... I didn't marry OM. I didn't choose him to be in my life at all. I never brought anyone in my life to love and expect the same. This is all on my W. I cannot think of one reason or excuse she could not have said, "No" I am married and I value that commitment. I think she knows that now.
I really think you need to forgive to proceed... You have nothing to forgive the OW for. Woman will want your H forever. It was your H you need to forgive.
But you know what? If my W decides she need something more than what I got, I am sure I can find some new sweet thing to rub her tummy.
Anyway, I am in a good place right now and I like it. I hope the same for all you too...
Allgood, You'll get there too soon. You are so brave. If your H really wanted you, I think he reacts different. You are a good woman and never forget it. Take your time with your next partner.
[This message edited by trynhard at 8:03 PM, April 25th (Monday)]
O Laura, see what you've done. I was all flowers & forgiveness before and now I'm ready to rip someone's arm off and beat them with it.
I find my H uses his words carelessly in general whereas I am far more precise & literal with them.
Love the pic. Your dog is beautiful!!!!!! So nice to see YOU so happy too.
At Laura's Place
Once again I have managed to spend an entire morning avoiding my chores Sigh.
Had a very long chat on phone with SIL (FWH's brother's wife) the only one in his family who knows. Found out some very interesting stuff.
Firstly SIL works in a nursing home and had heard rumours years ago about FWH and nurses. SIGH. She told me she didn't take much notice as there was no evidence (names etc) and he is such a nice friendly guy who everyone loves and thought it was "just talk".
More importantly she told me some details about his family which I didn't know. Both she and I have little respect for any of them (esp MIL) and I suppose this is why we get on so well. I have not had many private conversations with her in the past. She has known the family much longer than me. She told me that MIL always neglected and sometimes abused FWH and favoured other children over him even from when he was very young(like 3 or 4!!!!). I'd seen hints of this but not heard the full story before. I knew FIL's parents were very wealthy and had the impression that they did not support FWH's parents financially and that they were very poor when he was a child. Now I'm told that they were actually very good to FWH's parents, gave them lots of money and property which they wasted and lost through laziness. FWH's father didn't work!!!!!! (He died quite young well before I met FWH. I was told he committed suicide and so I have never asked questions much). But the most important thing is that FIL's parents favoured FWH above his brothers and sisters so MIL and FIL had no time for FWH. Bastards punished him because his father's parents favoured him!!!!!
Apparently some really cruel stuff eg one day FWH (not other children) was invited to grandparent's house and while he was there MIL had a tantrum about other kids not being invited and threw out all the little gifts FWH had given her. Just little things a child gives his mother but God, how cruel is that!!!!
Once when he was about 8 they went on a family holiday for a week and left him with neighbours because he "always got to have fun with FIL's parents and the other kids didn't"!!!!! WTF
I suspect these stories are only the tip of the iceberg!!!!!
I have noticed over the years her obvious favouritism towards her other children and their children. She has actually been quite spiteful to me and my children at times. I could never understand her ways. She'd be sickly sweet one minute and bitchy the next. (Maybe why I don't like the old witch ) Now it seems this all goes back to when my husband was very little.
No wonder FWH is always so eager to please everyone. So keen to make everyone think what a great guy he is. So he needs affirmation and the women he hooked up with fed his need.
This is such sick stuff. He has NEVER told me any of this. I really don't know what to do with this knowledge. It's not something we've ever talked about. I had no idea. I have to say knowing it has softened my angry heart a little. It doesn't excuse what he did but I suppose it does help me to understand a little more.
Wow. What do I do now????? I'm speechless.
Hugs to all
[This message edited by Laura28 at 10:15 PM, April 25th (Monday)]
pfm also has deep deep foo issues and from pretty much he was a toddler til present date...his mother is very very cold hearted, a bitch and all around ballsy woman....she's got major balls.....his whole foo has those balls....it seems to be a genetic disease....
tryn: you are a good looking dude, and your dog is gorgeous....she is a lassie dog...love them... ...when i was a little girl my aunt had one, the one who married my dad, the dog's name was princess and she was amazing with us kids, she let us do anything and everything and was always available for extra hugs....they are good dogs...
hope your day went ok fun....i hope your ws did something really special to celebrate who you are today....
A couple of things....the book "How Can I Forgive You?" is fabulous. I was wary of reading it because I thought it would be about how you HAD to forgive your WS if you had any hope of ever being happy again. Not so.....instead it reinforces that forgiveness must be EARNED! The offender must work to earn forgiveness. It is not something that they have a right to and even if they do everything in their power to repair the mess, the hurt party still may not forgive. The book does a great job of defining the difference between acceptance and forgiveness and makes some concrete suggestions for things a WS can do and in some cases must do, to earn forgiveness. I bought a paperback copy and took a highlighter to the book. I plan to take it with me to our MC session this week.
Speaking of which....at our session last week the MC pretty much said that she feels like I am moving through this "process" in a pretty healthy way. She was not put off or negative about my expressed anger....even to the point where she let me yell at FWH during our appt. She said that she thought we were doing a "good job" of getting things out in the open. She basically told FWH that I had the right to be angry and that if he wanted to R he would have to learn to hear it. Needless to say, he hasn't asked me how I've "felt" about anything since then. Can you say "denial?"
Glad to hear the good news from several of you....Hugs to those still having a tough time.
forgiveness must be EARNED!
yes I agree. Your WS must stop being the person they were. Must somehow understand how ugly they are and change. Change from being a bad person to being the best possible partner. My book I quote from is called Total Forgiveness by Kendall.
Some just cannot change. That is when they've earned forgiveness but without you!
That lassie Dog was a dog at the Winery we visited. This is my mutt.
Laura, Of course it's always FOO. My wife was a spoiled little girl. She always got what she wanted in life. To disappoint her parents is something she always carried over she would lie to protect herself to keep the affirmation. I really think exposure of her affair changed my W. When I think deeply how I would feel to have my kids know you cheated. It’s not something you are proud of. I’m glad you are starting to understand your H and know the real man. It’s funny how it takes years to see the real person. And then it is constantly changing in small ways depending on the experience.
So Allgood, Are you looking ahead or thinking about what could have been? You are in my thoughts today.
I'm resolved that this is what must be. I'm just coasting now until the end of June. Not really looking forward to anything. This is the calm before the storm and I know it. This will be a very turbulent summer as we tell the kids, family, friends & adjust to our new separted lifestyle.
Maybe in the Fall, I can start to take actions to help me find someone else.
ETA: Ok - you had asked if I was thinking about what could be & I forgot to answer that, lol. No, I'm not thinking about that anymore. I've given that a lot of thought over the past few months & I am resigned that it couldn't have been, not with my H. Nice idea, very romantic, but not based in reality.
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 6:42 AM, April 26th (Tuesday)]
I'm so glad you get the outside validation of your inner and outer beauty. Also, hooray that you get it while doing something healthy for yourself!
I don't know if Mr. Nell is taking anything in or just having trouble dealing with what it says... mostly because the book specifically says "if you do XYandZ it will make reconciling much more difficult if not impossible and hurt the BS even more than you have already hurt them" and he did do XY and a little bit of Z.
Yay/boo about the signing of the papers. I think I would have an initial sinking feeling at seeing the papers, but would rally quickly. Is that what happened with you?
I wasn't feeling well yesterday and ended up going home early after attending a meeting that I had to go to... actually afraid that I was going to end up with a horrible cold so I forced myself to do a few things like fold laundry just in case I was out of commission for several days... but it seems to have passed.
I really think that my body has gone into overdrive when it comes to healing over the past year. After DDay, my ear piercings decided to try to close (I've had pierced ears for more than 25 years), I seem to get over colds at record speed, my back hasn't bothered me at all (okay, yoga is probably to do with that). Just weird stuff like that.
Laura and Allgood,
Goodness, the WORDS they choose. Mr. Nell fought me about the shortness of the NC letter because he didn't want to hurt OW's feelings. Her feelings were much more important than mine for a very long time. That hurt, a lot. Still does.
Okay, WH up. Must run though I'm not finished!
I just had my 35th Anniversary yesterday. I got through it. It's not the same, I don't feel proud to be married that long and I find it difficult when people comment. I feel like the M was a fake.
I have been wondering if anybody that is R'd or R'ing has gotten the feelings back for their spouse that they had pre-A?. It is coming up on 2 years since dday this June and I'm really worried that the feelings and love that I had pre-A for H will never be again.
I have been noticing that when things are strained, he tries to fix it in his own weird way. He's more attentive, kind, caring. But when he thinks things are good, it goes back to pre-A stuff, like moodiness, not communicating, slamming doors, making hurtful remarks, etc.
I actually feel bad for him. He's so messed up. FOO issues, self esteem issues, conflict avoidance issues, agh. I wish I had no feelings at all sometimes. I wish I didn't care.
I also feel like I've aged 10 years. I look in the mirror and wonder what happened to that woman who had self esteem, was confident, liked herself and liked the way she looked.
Boy A shit really takes a toll on one's self.
Ok I'm done with the pity party. Hopefully nobody in work will piss me off today!!
so it takes alot of work on the ws end, and it takes alot of acceptance on the bs side....acceptance of that we cannot change what happened, sometimes acceptance that we cannot possibly know all that happened (of course the amount that each "needs" to know is an individual need), acceptance of the fact that you may not feel safe for quite a long time....there are so so many things that us bs's would have to come to "acceptance" over....anything that we cannot change or control...and if you find that you cannot accept it ever, then it would be time to move on...that would be a dealbreaker.....
allgood: i just read the "dry adultury" thread in ws......the bottom line is that the ws needs to do the work to find out why they believed that they could behave the way they did, basically get to the bottom of their issues....without addressing those issues the ws will more then likely cheat again if the circumstances are ripe for it, and in this world its really easy for circumstances to work out for this....
tryn: your dog looks like a fun dog....love fun dogs, they never quite grow up, the forever puppy....cool in an animal, not cool in a human though...
strong: its good that you were with your dd...
the old marriages are dead....its up to the ws to make amends and show the bs that a new marriage is not only possible but could be happy....even if the bs is the one who is working for it and the ws is following the lead the bs sets...the ws still needs to do the work...
nell: glad you are feeling better....
have a great day all, its supposed to be really really hot today here in new york and dry, or i should say not raining....yay
Your future is going to be filled with so much excitement. Develop relationships that make you feel good with people that want you to feel good. If you allow yourself, new people are about to come into your life and introduce you to some new and interesting things you never dreamed you could see or do. The chemistry of attraction is about to hit you again. Powerful good feelings are coming your way. Let it happen!
But I am going to give you some very sound advice moving into the next phase of life. “Don’t copulate with people you don’t want to fall in love with, because indeed you may do just that” – Helen Fishers. Now, you go read what questions you must asked to know how to look beyond a mask we all wear when we meet someone new.
From what I know about you in this past year …
- Woman who is not afraid to make a decision.
- Woman who takes care of her physical appearance and looks great
- Woman who is very good mother
- Woman who is very intelligent and has a good solid job
- Woman who is a young 40
- Woman who has learned what it means to have a mature loving relationship
- Woman who knows pain, can grieve, recover and not allow herself to get stuck.
- Woman who is friendly, nice and can feel things from her heart.
All good things it a partner.
You are going to be fine.
I am in a good place this morning. You are all welcome to come and join me if you wish.
Laura, you are doing well with your healing, and your H seems to be making all the right moves. Still, it is good that you recognize the roller coaster is still lurking. I have found that the "safer" I feel that FWW is no longer going to betray me with OM or leaving, the more I experience anger or frustration with the whole mess. Moving from crisis mode to the new normal creates time to reflect and wonder WTF about different things.
iwam, I know that you and all of the LTA women are beautiful. On the inside, because I read your posts, and on the outside because I saw the beach picture Laura posted.
(allgoodnamesgone)) it would be wonderful if your H would have an epiphany of what he has and will be losing, but if he were the type to recognize that you would not be in the position that you are now.
I am not supposed to talk to you.
Ladies, this statement from my WS to an AP would piss me off too. The unspoken part is "I want to talk to you, but..." This is an area I have not had to deal with. From early on, FWW would be ill at the possibility of running into a former AP, especially the last OM. She has avoided meetings and not pursued jobs that would put her geographically near where the OM works or lives.
...my back hasn't bothered me at all ...
I have the same thing. About 25 years ago I was kicked in the back by a donkey. It would periodically spasm and hurt for a couple of days. This has not occurred since dday. I suspect my weight loss and yoga are the reasons.
I am in the camp that there is nothing for me to forgive the OM for. It was FWW who violated her vows, and in fact, she pursued both of them. With the last OM she thought she was "controlling" him, but in reality he was well experienced at this and was using her as much as she was using him. I know both of these men, and they are not people I would ever be friends with regardless of their involvement with my FWW. I work with one OM, and I can assure you that independent of his relationship with my W, he is and will always be an a$$hole.
Now, my BIL is a different matter. As family, he had a responsibility not to become sexually and emotionally entangled with his wife's sister. In the case of BIL, while FWW was very willing, he is the one who initiated. I have called him out on his behavior. Flirting with FWW, erotic text messages back and forth, pictures sent, at least a couple sessions of phone sex, I suspect receiving oral. I told him I considered his activities having an A with FWW. He minimizes and says they were just fooling around. He owes me an apology, but I suspect I will never get it.
My weekend trip did not work out to take DS to get other DS at college. Between Easter weekend, spring break, and snowbirds migrating, there were no campsites available to reserve, and the parks we wanted to go to were packed. Instead I drove up alone to get him, and had plenty of time to reflect. It still bothers me that FWW wants to begin a “new” relationship of transparency and honesty while hiding the details of the past with a “that was then and this is now” attitude. It bothers me that we have gone 2 weeks, and may go another two with our schedule; with no physical connection and that, she is OK with that. I do not need to leave, but I am still waiting before I am willing to commit for the long term future.
Guys (DP and Dip), how are you doing?
have been wondering if anybody that is R'd or R'ing has gotten the feelings back for their spouse that they had pre-A?
My feelings are different. I am not living a life “just working” or “staleness”. That old feeling you might get when you take the same ole commute every day, day after day, listening to the same ole radio show. Today, I might take a couple different routes just to capture something new or different. For example, I cook often for us both these days. I cuddle.
I look, I see, yet accept my wife with imperfections behind her visible sweetness. I don’t have this ego that she is only mine. She is free to pick whoever she wants. If not me, my eyes are sharp, my mind without fear will move on and find a partner who chooses only me. I don’t fear saying how I feel, no matter what the feeling may be. I am persistent until the issue is fully compromised and settled. The physical attraction is different. I see way beyond a wrinkle or fold. And more….
[This message edited by trynhard at 9:06 AM, April 26th (Tuesday)]
I know one thing -- I've just been treading water at best for some time now. I need to do something different or better...
I will proclaim victory over the laundry though before the day is out!!!
I guess I think about it because OW was my "friend". Or, as my IC says "there was a lot of enmeshment there."
My WH complained multiple times that she was more my friend than his.
Allgood -- I agree with tryn and I think about that for my own situation too. Your WH would have done much more if he really wanted to be with you.
I think of this so much for me too. My WH is a person who lets nothing stop him from getting what he really wants. So, I'd say he doesn't really want me.
He sleeps A LOT. And complains that we don't have enough sex.
Forget it. That's not the point. The point is -- I knew jack about infidelity on Dday. If he wanted to save this M he could find all these resources too. He could see his IC, read books, tell me about himself and the A rather than rug-sweep . . .
Well, I've hung back to see what happens, and what has happened is a big fat lot of nothing. Ok. Not entirely nothing. He's physically here and he's not drunk.
He just reminds me of that old Chris Rock joke -- where Rock is saying that it's not enough for "men" to brag that they are manly for taking care of their kids -- you're SUPPOSED to take care of your kids! Ugh. Let me find the joke ...
You know the worst thing about cheaters? Cheaters always want credit for some BLEEP they supposed to do. A cheater will brag about some BLEEP a normal man just does. A cheater will say some BLEEP like, "I take care of my kids." You're supposed to, you dumb BLEEP! What kind of ignorant BLEEP is that?! "I ain't never been to jail!" What do you want, a cookie?! You're not supposed to go to jail, you low-expectation-having BLEEP!
Wow. Chris Rock has a potty-mouth! Who knew?
Ok -- I had to clean that up like crazy. I replaced the racial insults with cheater and the curse words with BLEEP But you get the point! The point is... yes, you are doing what you're supposed to do. You have now reached a baseline where you dying in a tragic accident and me getting the insurance money is no longer one of the better solutions to this problem BUT problem NOT solved! It takes MORE. It just does.
I come home after work!
I don't text my ex-girlfriend incessantly!
I'm not banging my/our "friend" behind your back anymore!
I'm not constantly drunk!
I didn't leave you pregnant with the 4th kid for my FB who was back in shape from having her last kid!
Or not. I have no clue.
I mean, is it just me or do R and potty training have a lot in common?
Yea! You didn't poo your pants! You're such a big boy! Let's do a big dance and give you a lollipop!
Wait ... lollipop (check) ... babytalk (check) ....
I think I'm a bit resentful...
ETA -- I forgot the marshmallows
[This message edited by m334455 at 10:20 AM, April 26th (Tuesday)]
We cross-posted. I feel like you've stepped over to the other side. Good for you. It's better over there.
I am at the Acceptance chapter of that book. So far, so good. I've picked up a few things here and there, but I think this chapter is where I am going to find my ah-ha.
Okay, the rest of this post is way venty. Get ready.
Laura and fun,
I've dug more into Mr. Nell's parentage and its effects on him than he has. He (and evil twin) focus on how overtly BAD their father was; unfortunately, they see their mother only as a victim. And I think that in itself is a big problem. At some point, as someone mentioned in another SI thread on another topic altogether, you stop being a victim and start being a volunteer. I'm not sure at what point that happens, but I'm guessing she crossed that line during their 40+ years of marriage. Plus, I have heard nothing about their mother ever protecting any of them from the father's aggression. She either chased her tail trying to fix her husband's world so he would stop acting like a screaming tantrum-throwing fuckwad, or played the cover-your-eyes-and-pretend-it-doesn't-exist game. And everyone felt so sorry for her. But here's the problem with the poor MIL thing: she helped fuck her kids over just as much as the aggressive narcissist she married. When Mr. Nell did something tantrum-throwing-fuckwaddy when Boyo1 was a baby, I told him to knock it the fuck off because it wasn't good for Boyo1 (because I have a responsiblity to raise Boyo1 to be healthy and not to continue the tradition of fuckwaddiness). And because I put my foot down, to Mr. Nell's credit, he stopped the tantrum-throwing-fuckwad behavior. Plus... do you think that perhaps the whole "my mommy is a victim" feeds Mr. Nell's need to rescue "victims" who are actually emotional manipulators?
I have dropped the F-bomb all over the place today. I would change it, but I'm slightly (oddly) proud of it, so there it sits.
Bonus TMI section!
GAH, the physical thing. I want to be physical and enjoy being physical, but am so unattracted to Mr. Nell right now... in part because his actions were so completely unattractive (and he hasn't busted his ass to prove that he's changed), his approach is lazy and entitled (the way men are in every comedy routine about the ineptness of men's approach to foreplay), and because he has listed the ways that he finds me unattractive and has not done anything that I have asked for to show that he does not find me repellent and/or nothing but a convenient hole. I don't know why I decided to share that today. It's been bothering me for quite some time and the resentment is building. Not because I think he gave OW anything more/better (lazy, selfish, boring sex... no thanks... BTDT), but because I think I deserve more and I deserve better and I'm getting bare minimum efforts in this field, too.
Bleargh. Maybe I'm expecting too much and not focusing enough on the positives, but... FFS... somebody should at least attempt to knock my fucking socks off. Or throw me a goddamn compliment. Because I look fucking hot. Stupid asshole.
I understand your whole vent. ((Nell))
I was just signing back on real quick with this thought: I guess what I want is to be compensated in some way -- but that's not possible. I'm reading this book about the Book of Ruth and it talks about suffering, etc. The author points out that there is no balance sheet -- no good done after an injustice can erase the harm of the injustice -- so nothing he can do will compensate me. I guess I'd like to feel like he would compensate me if it was possible, even though it isn't. Sigh.