I have to tell you all about the workshop/retreat. It was Friday to Friday and it was pretty intense. You can google Onsite Workshops and get an idea of what they are about but in a nutshell - it is an unbelievable experience and well worth the $$. I was VERY skeptical that I was going to be able to accomplish my goals for the week. In fact, I was able to accomplish my goals and came away feeling so much more at peace with myself. The staff works with experiential group therapy and I have to say that every day I became more and more amazed at how they made me feel more and more open and willing to share my pain with others. I had never participated in group therapy before but I am now a believer that it has a very important place in IC. I would be happy to give more details to anyone if you would like, but the bottom line is....if there is any way you can swing the $$ to attend this workshop (Living Centered) I would urge you to run, not walk, to the next open session. They do offer scholarships if you cannot afford the fee, so don't let the cost put you off. IT IS WORTH IT!! Seriously.
I came home with the clarity to tell my FWH that I want us to S. The in-house S thing is not working. We are both walking on eggshells whenever we are in the same place and it's wearing me out. I now know that I need to work on healing myself and I need space away from FWH in order to not get sucked back into his sh**. We are the definition of co-dependent and I am going to break free of that.
FWH was not happy with my "decision" and was quite defensive most of the weekend. However, yesterday morning we had a mini-breakthrough. We were once again talking in circles and I decided to try a technique that was used quite a lot during the workshop. I had FWH be me. I asked him to sit quietly and to pretend that he was me. He was to say the words that I usually say and to try and "feel" what I/he was saying. Imagine my surprise when it actually worked. FWH got a look of horror on his face and broke down. Then I broke down and we were a blubbering mess. The emotions were running pretty strong and we ended up having sex. I don't regret it and frankly it felt pretty good. Over the next few hours we both gradually returned to our defensive positions, which is pretty normal, but at least for a brief time I think FWH actually "got it." Nothing has really changed, I still intend for us to S and FWH agrees that this really doesn't change anything right now. We will stay as we are for another month, until after our DD graduates, then he will move out. That's the plan, anyway.
So, that's what's up with me. I really did think of you all every day. I wish I had the money to pay for each and every one of you to go to Onsite. It is truly a life-altering experience. I can't tell you how much self-confidence, self-esteem and a personal sense of inner peace I gained from my week there. It has changed my perspective about how I've been living my life and how my M has been broken for quite some time. I really don't think that FWH and I are going to be able to repair what's been done, but while that makes me sad, I also see that that may be what it takes for me to be happy. And I WILL be happy.
BTW - most of the staff is trained in using EMDR. Not sure I'm ready to try it yet, but Laura I knew that you were doing this therapy. How is it going?
Strongish: It sounds like you had a great week. I'm happy that you were able to find clarity as to what to do and was able to discuss it calmly with WH. It seems that you guys will be able to S without anger and respectfully, and although extremely sad, it's a good thing.
Hi Tryn! Hope your plans for the recommitment ceremony are going well.
Like all of you that get chest pains, I've had all the tests and it's stress. Lucky us.
I flipped out Saturday night. I think it just hit me while talking to him at dinner that nothing was ever going to change. That he was not going to even try to change, that he won't try to say I Love You, he won't try to put his arm around me, he won't initiate conversation and that I am never going to get any of it. I never had it in the first place so why would I think he would try to make me happy now? So I flipped out on him.
Bottom line is I either accept what is or move on.
In his defense, he has been bringing flowers and he writes nice things in the cards. He buys me all kinds of beautiful jewelry and now he wants to buy me a new car. It's his way of showing his love. But it's not my love language and he refuses to read anything. He is still going to IC, there has been no contact since Dday with OW. In fact, he called OW a douche bag recently!
I have some deep thinking to do. So damn confusing.
Here's what I got:
Fun: Big hug for you
Honest: Nice pic!
Forgive- thanks for thinking of me. Yes, I can relate to those lyrics.
Miracle: You are correct. I will never understand what happened. I guess the answer is that he stopped enjoying/needing me/this M years ago. I know it happens every day, but I guess, since we've been together since we were teens, I just never thought something like this would happen. I really thought we were family. I thought we were like-minded as far as that went.
So, no, I'm not ok. I don't vent a lot here, because I think this is now strictly a getting used to being separated/divorced thing. The comfort I had in this thread was because very few people can relate/shed light on LTA issues. I needed this thread to help me understand & process what had happened, how it could be repaired, etc. Thanks to all of you, I believe I understand it as much as possible. I'm not reconciling anymore, so my issues now really are just the dynamics of figuring out how to control the damage to my children as we separate and the occasional vent.
So, when I'm on LTA, I guess I sound strong because I'm not really delving into my issues. For the most part, I come here to see how my friends are doing, see if I can help & to update you guys on what I'm doing.
And, on that note, it seems stbx and I have come to an agreement about where the visitation is to take place. He's no longer saying I'm using the kids to hurt him, but seems to still believe that I'm acting in a selfish manner. And, surprisingly, no harm came to him during this conversation. I didn't even make any of the very easy & obvious remarks to such a ludicrous statement.
But, I was pleased that I stopped myself during the conversation from trying to convince him I'm not selfish. I just accepted that I nonetheless got the agreement I wanted & trying to get him to understand me is no longer something I need.
So there, dumbass.
Peace out my peeps!
You can't argue with crazy. Good too see you finally figured that out.
Got 10 minutes.
From dday until they carted me off in an ambulance I had these daily - mostly all day. Yes it is stress but docs can help. I was put on Minax - a beta blocker. Heart specialist said although my probs were stress related that these would really help. They did. Made me very tired at first (so at least I slept a little better. I was on them for 6 months and since stopping have not had the major pain I had before - just twinges sometimes. Maybe some of you would benefit from these. It really worries me that so many of you are still having these years later.
There is actually a recognised condition called something like "Broken heart syndrome". Because of the stress your heart gets an overdose of adrenalin and goes into a sort of spasm which leads to the pain. It can't be good to have this happening a lot. So please those of you still experiencing this get some meds!!!!
FWH is really doing well. Trying so hard. Sometimes slips up but really making the effort. He has seen his supervisor and got the next couple of months of shifts changed so he works all weekdays = will be home evenings and weekends. Did this because he is worried about me being alone at home even though will mean significantly less money. (Very important to me as I now know that for years he used to swap shifts without my knowledge so he would have more opportunities to see his whores and leaving me home alone evenings and weekends with the kids.)
Had a massive meltdown Sunday night - suspect it may be the processing that comes with EMDR.
What I need more is someone who can get me to understand why WH did what he did.
My first EMDR session focused on WHY he took 5 hours to phone OW3 to break it off. This has haunted me as I felt like he was trying to choose between us and weighing up the pros and cons. (Losing house, respect of his family, kids, money etc). Therapist helped me work through the feelings and thoughts. So hard to explain but by the end of the session I could think about what was said etc in that 5hours without feeling ANY pain. This was mindblowing. I now can analyse it clearly because the emotions are not getting in the way. I gained lots of great new insights that have really helped my self esteem. The thing is I don't think I (or he) will ever really know WHY he took so long (or WHY he had the As) but for me the WHY of that event is no longer as important.
This is so hard to explain and I have to go to work. I guess I just wanted to say that it's not really the WHY that is important. We focus on the WHY because it is all bound up with how we feel about ourselves. We have to heal ourselves so that we stop obsessing about it and hurting ourselves. We will never truly know the WHY. But the WHY hurts us because it is so bound up with what we think our FWSs thought/felt about us at the time. KWIM??
strong: welcome home, you sound wonderful and at peace with your decision.....and you sound relieved i think to have made a definitive decision too.....
and your ws being able to get it even for just a bit....a gift for you, and obviously was too much for him since he seems to have buried it already...
ws's who cannot face who they are....so difficult for us bs's when we do know who they are...or were for some...
fun: i think you are coming to head....i hope he is smart enough to "see" that as well as comes through a bit more often in YOUR language as opposed to what HE thinks....
allgood: like m3 said, you cant understand crazy...and like laura also said...we get all caught up in the whys???...
for those trying to reconcile the why is more important....for those of us who arent, it would be nice to know the why...but truthfully will any why they did what they did make sense to us...probably not, we do not think the way they do, and just as we process life differently as do they....wrapping our head around what they did is just impossible....we cannot and i am learning that trying to understand how and why he did what he did will only bring me more misery....i feel as though if i could just learn the how and the why it might help me accept the unacceptable...but truth be told, probably not...because my head cannot think they way his head did....and does....because here it is, he knows better and still doesnt do better...which i think for most of us is a huge issue...the "f"ws's who get it, they know better and are doing better...those who don't...DON'T....
the chest pain thing..mine have gotten much much better, the more detached i am the less pain....only in times of great stress does it come back, and it is weird because the minute i feel it i know what it is....its on the right side and not the left and it has a very definite feel to it like no other ...when they come on depending on whats goin on i take a xanax...otherwise i just wait it out...
and usually they pass...til the next big stress anyways..
manchild is acting totally normal....he brushes stuff off so easy that is until he gets mad again and then it all comes back...and i mean ALL.....he goes back to the therapist tomorrow..
DS16 is on the phone with WH talking about going overseas to visit this summer. WHen he gets off, I asked him about it, and DS says he wants to go there for a month. I said where will you stay? with HER?? and he says maybe.
I blew a gasket and started telling him how I understand that he misses his family over there, but to stay with her, and I did call her a whore, a bitch, etc.
I had explained to DS many times before how I was afraid his father might keep him over there and we were arguing. He told me he wasn't betraying me, but wanted to visit his family. Then DS16 announces that he is going to sleep at his friend's house and I stopped him.
DS 16 ended up calling DS35, who came over for a half an hour to talk to DS 16 for a while, but had to leave.
I didn't say anything bad, I really didn't. I didn't put down their father.
I yelled louder than either DS 16 or 12 have ever heard me. DS 12 said he was scared, and I said, but your friend's mother yells like that all the time, and he said "I know, but you don't" , I apologized and said that sometimes a person may do that once or twice in their life.
Then DS 12 says to me, no offense, but I think Dad did it because he wanted more kids and you are too old.
I know he's trying to make sense of all this, but that really hurt.
I know all of this comes from feelings of abandonment and that the kids want to abandon me too.
your ds will get over it im thinkin sooner then you will....
life has changed for him, and that is just the way the cookie is gonna crumble....that is not your fault, that is not of your control...protecting your kids is priority and he cannot possibly see what you see, he is still a child, a child with big time hormones who thinks he has all the answers...
when he is 18,....and completely graduated from high school and if he wants to go...but until then, you need to do what you know is right...and he doesn't have to like it either...
take a xanax and get some sleep...
The DS's were scared, because they never heard me yell like that. DS16 said he was scared FOR me.
Now I have to feel guilty because I lost it for once? I've been more or less a single mom for so long....
I feel like I'm not allowed to be human......
YOU set the bar in your household..
once upon a time i would shake things up in my house with my kids, i would call it a new day....it would come when things got too easy and i felt like my kids were stepping on me, or taking advantage of me...didnt happen too often...i was and am a strict mom...but every once in a while i would get the feeling like i lost control....i am a bit of a control freak regarding my kids...soooo...i would flip out very calmly and we would have a "new day" and i would make up a song and sing it all day long....my kids hated it...but it was always just enough to gain control of our lives which had started to spin out of normal control....like i said it didn't happen often...but when it did i always felt like i needed to reign us in as a family unit....as opposed to getting lost within the outside life.....
its ok, it really is...and YOU are the one who has to make the decision that you ARE ALLOWED TO BE HUMAN....YOU ARE ALLOWED...YOU need to give yourself that permission...you are a grown up and are fully allowed to do that you know..
i knew he cheated, felt it in my bones...had not a clue that an oc would be in the picture...one that has been there for 10 years...
makes me remember that there is a possible oc for the miracle family too....that one for lots longer...
but poor maria, this woman was there every day....at least arnold did right by the oc and supported it from the getgo.....how this woman explained this support to her husband...total mystery on that one...and this woman passed the child off as her husbands...again another similarity....if indeed this child who is a fully grown man at this point in pfm's...is being raised by ow#1's husband....
it just boggles my mind...how pfm could not want to know for sure....how he denies that he even can be....so stupid....but then again he is the epitomy of stupid isn't he..
As for Arnold and Maria....I was going to cut and paste the headline and send it to FWH and say, "What's the matter with you people??" God, the sense of entitlement is sickening! What a crappy way to start out the day.
Yes, you are starting to crack. Miracle, quite frankly that you haven't previously. You are under too much stress.
Yes, if you don't yell often, it's scary. But, as it's an aberration for you, there's really no harm. The kids see it as a departure & move on, as they see you move on from it. They are fine.
Now, the feelings of abandonment, well, you need to work on that. The kids are going to want to have a relationship with both parents, and unfortunately, that's going to include OW in your case.
Have you read any books on this topic - of how s/d affects the kids & how to handle these kind of situations?
I'm reading 1 right now, with another on deck.
I think the advice for your sitch would be something like, it's ok for you to acknowledge to your kids why you have an issue with OW because it hurt your feelings that WH began a relationship with her while married to you, but it's ok for them to visit their Dad even if OW is around.
Now, I'm the first to say that's a tall damn order. I would go absolutely batshit crazy if my stbx tried to bring OW near my kids, but if push came to shove & it happened, I think I would have to try to take the high road for my kids' sake - you don't want them to feel caught in the middle.
So, let's rally Honest. Don't beat yourself up. I yell all the time. Lol. Good for you that this is an aberration. Go back to your kids & say that you are under a lot of stress, grief, etc. and you lost it. That you are sorry they were scared. That you will try not to do it again & find better ways to deal with your stress. They will forgive you. Of course they will.
Then, let them see you DO SOMETHING to make this better.
When is he coming back again?
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 8:53 AM, May 17th (Tuesday)]
The answer? People are not loving or loyal all of the time.
Those chemicals in our brains are so powerful, the feelings are so good, the feelings that come with being "loved" by others. Those affirmations of someone thinking and showing you that you are beautiful, perfect, ideal, hot, and every word you can think about as being attractions. It leads to SEX. Some people have been raised to be too weak to say, NO. Let's face it, it feels good. It feels great. It feels euphoric. It feels so good it is worth the risk of losing because you have your lover to rely on should you get caught.
When you do finally “GET IT”. It becomes a conscious choice to love someone once you understand your feelings. My innocence is gone and I wish I never had it. It is the ole, “this stuff happens to other people, not me. “ Well, it happened to many people. It is part of life.
My wife tried 3 times to move our renewing vows this past week. Her feelings? Shame. Shame to even have to renew our vows. Shame to be in front of our priest. Shame in front of our kids. When you cannot forgive yourself, that shame just clings on you. Oh the ugliness of infidelity.
In life, you cannot control the decisions others make. Sometimes, people want to cheat or even kill themselves. How can that be our faults? It is not. Those other people can be our kids, our spouses, our friends, on and on.
All we can control ourselves. Tell others how we feel about them, make choices to be desirable and choose to love them... or choose not to love them.
Anyway, I feel good all you fine folks came into my life. You have given me something special. You helped me understand more about relationships more than any book could tell me.
Maybe you need to poke around there a bit & make sure they're not walking around confused & anxious, etc.
Have you & pfm any idea what exactly you will be telling them? What did you tell your daughter (or did you not have to tell her anything - I think she read an email?)
i did have to answer only a few questions from daughter after she did find that email...
first question: is he still doing it
my answer was: i do not believe he is doing it now...
next question: where is he sleeping?
my answer was: in the chair and a half, he is not in the bed with me..
her reply to that one: ok good
and that was it for questions..i have offered to answer anything she has, i have offered for her to attend therapy....she has declined so far...
my boys are simply not ready to face it period...it really is right there and they are refusing to face it...alot like their dad...but being that they ARE children, even manchild at 17....i have chosen to let it go for now....and only for now....the day will come that i will not only bring it up but tell them myself along with pfm...they need to be able to talk to both of us and i hope he is ready for when it comes....
as to what we will tell them...i will tell them only the basic truth, the truth that my dd already knows and i will answer whatever questions they have...if i feel the questions are too personal i will let me know exactly that....that the questions are too personal and frankly not their business...
Strong: Yes, I've been holding on to the anger for far too long. I guess I'm afraid to let it go. Perhaps it has to do with losing control of myself.
Allgood: I know that the DS's will have to deal with the OW and OC's. I've been there, done that with the older boys. It was just that this time DS16 was telling me that he was going whether I like it or not and when I said so you will be staying with them/her and he said I guess. He said he was going for a month. Now, for years he has been taking classes leading to getting his lifeguard certificate and finally got it this past winter. He couldn't wait for YEARS to become a lifeguard and work at the local pool. So when I asked about that, he was willing to give that up to go for a MONTH.
But DS has other choices. He can stay with his aunts. He doesn't have to stay with THEM, possibly in MY house over there where OW will be sleeping in MY bed with his father.
My parents are divorced. I really, really understand the dynamics of being upset with the parent who left and yet so desparately wanting thier love. I dropped everything when my father came to see me. It drove my mother crazy.
Sorry for the ramble. It just felt like my kids were abandoning me as well. Although intellectually I know they are not, but the feelings were soooo overwhelmiing.