first: i am so so sorry for all your pain...this is really hard, and its not fair...and this is one of those times in life that just sucks a pigs patooty...
second: i agree with tryn about giving him details...most of them are none of his business.....i think he can know how many, how long and who they are should any of them be in his life in any way shape or form....
from there take it one question at a time...and really weigh whether or not its something that he needs to know....and its not keeping secrets, its keeping some of your private life private....
in my sich there will be certain things i cannot share with both my kids and my mom...like the fact that one of the women he tried with is now a close personal friend....she never acted on his advances and told him basically to back off....this piece of info would hurt my kids and my mother....so it would serve no purpose...so weigh each question and decide if it something he or they when the time comes need to know....
second: i am glad you will be sharing this with your other son...its hard to keep such a big big life altering secret...
third: i would not tell them about you separating....it would be yet another huge huge secret to keep from their sister.....if they ask....tell them that until the graduation is done this is something that is not being dealt with...this is off the table until her graduation is done.....and put a period at the end of that sentence.....
the burden is already very heavy, adding to it for them....not necessary..the graduation will be here soon enough....and then call a family meeting clue your daughter in and then tell them all together your decision to separate...
as to your ws asking you to leave the house....
omfg, add him to the list of stupid, really really stupid insensitive slob...how dare he....is he from another planet....that man needs to take a shortcut to hell.....asshole...a whoppin asshole....
didnt this just make him so attractive to you and question your decision to separate...didn't it make you just want to throw him down and fuck him right there and then because of how loving this is and was!!!!
and once more...(((((strong)))))
Trust is a decision. You decide not to check up. You decide not to place GPS in the car. You decide not to record conversation, check phone records… etc.
However, feelings are different. Your feelings are exactly like mine once. Fear of hurt again. It is call the feeling of end. Ok, so how do you overcome that fear?
You must believe in yourself and have the confidence in your ability to find a new partner. How can you achieve that? I am lucky enough to have 4 friends that divorced. Each one had their spouses cheat. Each one of these friends have different stories but each one tell me, there are woman available. Two of these men are now newly married. The stories they tell me always bring me a laugh, a smile, and a confidence. If they tell you enough stories, YOU are going to believe you can have what they have.
I know this, YOU JOLLUM, can have a new partner in life. If you are careful in your next selection, you can find a woman who knows how to be desirable. (You know the ones I posted). You can find a woman that can be desirable until the day you both die. You can change your ways too. You can do nothing but desirable and you will be one hell of a catch.
You must take this position in life.
I cannot control the bad decision other make. I can only control decision I make.
You married your wife. Does she deserve a second chance? You are giving her one. Allow her to live free. Allow her to make her own choices. I can tell you this. Once you lose that innocence, your “A” guard is up. You will never lose the “A” guard because you are going to have some new boundaries that will make it very hard for anyone to cheat on you.
For example, my number one boundary. I am not going to be married to a woman that needs a man relationship. That mean, no texting, no emails, no lunches, no dinners, no events, etc. And I was not afraid to tell my W, if you want that, that is ok. Good bye because I am not going to live like that ever again. I really have confidence I will know. Our senses are very powerful. Affairs change behaviors in people. The gut feeling hit you. I am not afraid to follow my gut.
Do you see and understand what I am telling you?
KNOW THAT YOU CAN HAVE GOOD LIFE WITHOUT YOUR WIFE
Strongish – stay strong. Don’t involve the kids any more than you have to. Try and stick to the practical details. I would guess your swaying from one emotion and desire to another is normal when you feel you are about to step off the edge but it’s important to take the path of least regret (as our miracle would say). It may well be that this step is needed – the separation and exposure – is what is needed before you can come back together. Take one step at a time. Make sure it is the right one. As for the idea YOU should leave the house ..... NO! (((((Strongish)))))
Tryn – I am so happy for you. Your determination and positive approach is awesome. Big congratulations to you and Mrs Tryn on your wonderful day. Beautiful choice of words too. Love the rainbow – sunshine through the rain. So many of us would love to be in the place you are now and you are showing us how it can and should be done. I just love your artwork – one of your pieces really does say a thousand words. I think the quote by Romana L Anderson should preface the one by Elizabeth Gilbert: People spend a lifetime searching for happiness; looking for peace. They chase idle dreams, addictions, religions, even other people, hoping to fill the emptiness that plagues them. The irony is the only place they ever needed to search was within. Find what makes you happy inside – and maintain it from within. And yes, regaining true intimacy is the hardest part. To do that, you have to open yourself up and be open to your partner. It is a self perpetuating philosophy in marriage. Onward and upward in the Tryn’ home!
Laura, I’m so sorry for my thoughtless posting the other day. I zoomed in, posted, and zoomed off again. I hope your furry best friend is a lot better now. We had several times with our last one when I thought “this is it” – and it wasn’t. It’s very hard when the time eventually does come, and even though people say it’s for the best, it still hits hard.
Now, with her help, I know there was nothing I could have done. It really wasn't about me. I could have been the PERFECT wife and I mean PERFECT and he would still have cheated because it really was about him and his need for approval and attention and ego stroking and all the other crap that weak people crave.
Meanwhile, I haven’t decided what to do about the dogs here. The previous owners are point blank refusing to take them back and I don’t think I want the confrontation by me taking them back or leaving them outside their house or any of that. So, I’m thinking on it. Two of my bf’s immediately said that FWH would have been very happy to have me “tied”, just like he “tied” me by persuading me to go for DS#4 even though I’d had a couple of miscarriages between DS#3 and falling for #4. They see it as soft control. However, FWH has said he just wants to see me happy and thought the beneficial psychological effects of the dogs would help to lift me, that having the dogs would show his commitment to me, that he is 100% committed to me, that my self-doubt is his doing and he is so sorry for that, blah, blah. His powers of persuasion are very good. And I am a natural carer/pleaser.
Soooo, I’m going to call the local RSPCA and another dog rescue centre and see what they suggest. When we saw the dogs, it was clear they were extremely well looked after, loved, very obedient, friendly, and good with children. And we have found they are (reasonably) good off the lead, don’t beg or fuss for food, don’t touch food on kitchen work tops, don’t jump up, don’t bark – they are almost perfect. But, I did three things I said I would never do, get a dog on a whim, take in a dog without an agreed trial, or take a dog without going away and thinking about it for 24hrs. Acted with my heart and not my head.
And thanks to everyone. I’ll get the right thing done.
Back in a mo………
my lack of acceptance of believing that i cannot believe him at all....
M33 – I assume your FWH got the Jack Sparrow parallel – and told the story with a double entendre to you? But sounds like a good outcome anyway. As for the FEAR examination after d-day, all I can say about yours is But we all have those worst case scenarios running at a hundred miles and hour and crashing into each other. That’s why it’s important to have a sounding board irl and/or IRL to get a bit of a grip on a crazy state of mind.
NJgal, I’m so glad you’re back on this board as one of our oldies – I did miss you when you left for a bit. It’s good to read about others who are making it one way or another and finding a path that leads to a good marriage, albeit different. I am still trying to find a way around myself and I really think the whole TT and minimising did nothing but worsen an already emotionally desperate situation. He saw it as damage limitation, I just saw it as more lies. I feel I was holding the reins in the marriage and now I’ve let go, we are without direction. And you have to feel you are going somewhere, don’t you? I want to get that same positive sense of direction you have, but just don’t know how to find it.
Off to make tea......
How did we make the leap from your child finding out about the A to s/d? I didn't follow that at all? Was it just your H's reaction, including his demanding that you get out? Or, was there more?
My point is that emotions are very high right now. This is too big a decision to make in such an emotional state. (It's also the kind of decision, that once you tell your kids, you really don't want to change your mind.)
And, I am unable to say more at the moment, but I totally get your disappointment about your child's reaction, as far as it having appeared to have blown over so quickly.
What to tell my kids about s/d and the A has been on my mind a lot. One of the things I thought of was that if the kids didn't share my outrage, I would be kind of mad.
(Now, I agree with you, none of this is emotinally healthy, but I understand your feelings on the topic.)
Ok, got to go.
I don’t think any of us understand affairs until we are struck in the face by one. I have been one of the smug-married’s and got dealt a slap of reality on d-day. This was NOT supposed to happen to ME. WE were supposed to have a great marriage! How the walls came tumbling down.
I think you are an amazing man when it comes to dealing with your FWW’s OM. Personally, I think he should be kicked in the goolies regularly. And I’m glad you are man enough to not do it.
No time for more. I must stop filibustering and make those calls.
Hugs to all.
As for suggesting YOU move out???? SOB!!! He's not there much to begin with in his job!! What an ass!!!
UKgirl: I enjoyed reading your post. You are so right about people trying to fill up the void inside in so many harmful ways, when all the time we had the tools within us. A lot of us just don't know how to do it. I think you are doing the right thing with the dogs. You don't really want them, and are not ready for them. Don't give in to the persuasion. Your Wh's argument is so persuasive saying it shows his committment. So tell him thank you, focus on his motivation and get rid of the dogs!! You don't need to have the physical presence of the dogs to feel his committment or the soft way of tying you down again.
Ats: I don't know how you do it with the OM at the meetings. I would go crazy. Being physically ill when you got home shows how hard this is for you. I pray that you can get to a point to dismiss this SOB in your mind.
It is hard to disassociate the WS's affair and not feel we are to blame. It's part of a feeling of control to feel that we have some blame and therefore we can "fix" it.
I'm finally coming to the conclusion that yes, in most cases, the marital problems are 50/50.....whether one partner is drinking, for example, and the reaction of the other starts a downward spiral, or we get too involved with kids and work, or it's just the BS who is damaged.....BUT and this is a big BUT, it was the decision of the WS to have an affair to deal with the problems ( or more accurately NOT to deal with the problems) instead of finding a way to work it out. There are other ways of escape too, whether it's drinking, drugs, working too much, P/A behavior, etc. But the affair is the most damaging to the M. It is an extremely selfish decision made by someone with little or no boundaries, especially a LTA.
In General there was a thread about someone who was becoming a madhatter. One response was very good about how the poster was focusing on the FEELINGS and not the OP. There is the trap. A trap like drugs. Yes, there is a temporary "good" (high) feeling, and you want that again and again and forget the repercussions of reality. You keep getting that hit to a point that you are escaping the reality and then blame the reality.
You are addicted and it has nothing to do with the BS. It was the choice of how to deal with problems within the WS and problems in the M.
My antianniversary is coming up this weekend. Probably why I've been so down. We forget that the weather, the smells of the air, the sounds of a season can stir up memories and emotions and we arene't even fully aware of it.
Hugs to the tribe.
I just read an editorial in Newsweek about the Maria/Ahhnold split titled (this gets my back up right off the bat) "The Princess and the Terminator: Older Couples Are Calling It Quits and Returning to Adolescence."
Not. One. WORD. about infidelity, Ahhnold's banging their housekeeper, the secret 10-year-old OC, etc. No, THIS WRITER talks about how older people want to be free to enjoy themselves. Really? REALLY. The woman talks about long-term marriages and how spouse's habits can become annoying. She talks about personality differences. She talks about people living longer. She talks about "liberation" and "nothing is as sexy as freedom" and "many men and women remain sexually active" but not one damn word about the fact that Ahhnold betrayed his wife and destroyed his marriage. I think this writer had the story all ready to go and was just waiting for a well-known "older couple" to divorce so she could plop an opening and closing paragraph about them on the story and get paid for it.
I am not impressed.
It sounds like that writer may be or has been a WS or wants to be a WS. She does understand the mind set of the WS.
Hugs to the tribe.
We forget that the weather, the smells of the air, the sounds of a season can stir up memories and emotions and we arene't even fully aware of it.
Interesting you post this honest. FWW frequently refers to triggers for her being tied to the smells and views of the seasons.
... about how older people want to be free to enjoy themselves.
Ya, now that the whole betrayal, LTA, and OC thing is out in the open I suspect their lives will be much more enjoyable.
ukgirl, soon after dday I really wanted for me to be the problem in the M and the cause of her A's. If I was the problem, I knew that I could "fix" me. Standing by to see if she can and will fix her is much more difficult and includes a real sense of powerlessness.
Allgood....when I returned from the one-week retreat I told FWH that I definately wanted to S. That did not mean that I wanted to file for D, but S for 3-6 months. I told him that I needed a break from him and the drama and both of us need to work on ourselves before we can heal our M. He was less than thrilled as was evidenced by his theory that I should be the one to leave the house as I needed to take "accountability" for my desire to S. He has since backed off of that position and for the past few days has been the most remorseful that I've seen him. I told him that I would be waiting to see if he changed back to feeling angry and resentful or if he remained remorseful. We're on day #4.
We went to see a financial counselor today that specializes in counseling couples with S/D. I should have taken a Xanax before I left. It was surreal. FWH and I drove over together, sat calmly discussing how we would structure our finances if we S/D then got in the car to return home. All very civilized. I got home and proceeded to cry for the next hour....no kidding...an hour. Tomorrow I will be strong again, but for today I am once again mourning the loss of the husband and M that I had. It wasn't perfect, but it sure was better than this living nightmare.
Thanks for the advice about DS17. I don't intend to share all the gory details with any of the kids, but I expect that when they learn that the LTA was actually 4 years long there will be additional outrage and feelings of betrayal. Or I'm projecting....I just don't know anymore.
Busy day ... nanny is off and whaddaya know, I've got 1000 kids!
Super fun though. They've all been angels all day, lucky me!
Baby Paddy has officially been downgraded to less frequent PT, so that's great news.
miracle -- I'm assuming he was double entendre-ing on the Jack Sparrow thing, but then again I'm REALLY literal.
WH agreed to go see his IC with me again. We shall see how that goes. His IC half blew me off ina return message when I first called to make the appointment, but when my message in reply was basically "Look buddy, this dude won't listen to me and he's being abusive to me and our kids and I'm at my wits end so if you can't get this guy to listen to me then I'm outta here because I'm at my wits end with this guy and have completely given up hope." You know, he called back with a much different attitude and said we could come for a double length appointment and he'd make sure WH heard me out.
Guess it helps that his IC had been seeing WH for 18 months when I discovered the A and WH hadn't bothered to mention it to his IC, EVER. So, I've got some street cred with his IC on the "oh, hey, did your patient ever mention that he acts like THIS?" thing.
Ugh. WH has been just fine for the past few weeks -- but he just can't blow up at me or one of the kids like that ever, ever, ever again. He just can't. And the verbal mind game bullshit has lost it's obvious luster ( ) as well.
Anyway, The Pasha and The Pharaoh need me. I'll check in again soon. Sorry I'm too busy to give y'all anything more than ((hugs)).
Sorry I'm too busy to give y'all anything more than ((hugs)).
As M33 says.
Reading and sympathising
Love you all
I am so sorry for the turmoil that you are going through.
I just want to let you know that eventhough I may sound positive now.. I was not that way for a very long time after d-day!
I did separate from my husband and it was good for us. It was a HUGE wake up call for my husband.
It was a time for both of us to think, process the information etc, without having to deal with all of the day to day interractions.
Remember... separation does not always mean that divorce is inevitable.
It could be more of a cooling off period...a time for both of you to take stock of the situation.
I forget now... does your husband go to IC at all?
What does he say about divorce? is he resigned to it? or does he appear to be fighting to save the marriage?
Maybe the reality of a separation will cause him to take action-go to IC regularly, go to MC, begin to be more honest and open in his discussions with you, more willing to give up some things if it means saving the marriage...etc.
The thing is though... you really have to say it and mean it...otherwise the WS gets lulled into this false sense of security... thinking that you are just threatening S or D but will not really follow through...so the WS does not have to take it seriously, does not have to make any real changes etc.
As for your kids... the reaction of your DS could just be his way of processing the information.
My children were quiet too....
it did not mean that they were not 100% supportive of me.
ats- so sorry that all of this has been so triggering for you.
It's totally understandable.
I would not be able to stomach being in the same room with the OW either.
When you post to someone else's troubles, it resonates to my own troubles most of the time...I just wish I could help someone else...I'm still struggling and so confused. Maybe one day I will be able to return the help.
As always, the support from the Tribe is calming to me. And knowing that njgal is happy now is something for me to hang on to.
FWH is crazy smart and can understand almost any concept at the drop of a hat
i completely disagree...if he is so damned smart how did he end up having an affair and furthermore put his marriage in such a big big hole...a hole i might remind you neednt had been so damned big if he just did what any really smart man would have done to save his ass and the marriage...
book smarts = a whole lot of nothin in life smarts....
as for your ds seemingly over it...not a shot, he is processing and he loves his father and will probably go back and forth...trust me, he is way not over it...and he is also relieved that its out too im betting and further relieved he doesnt have to keep the secret from your other son and knowing that your daughter will know too after her graduation takes so so much pressure off of him....
i think once my dd doesn't have to keep pfms secret anymore she too will have some relief of sorts...keeping bad secrets eats away at ya....
fun: you have offered wisdom and more importantly experience and most importantly hugs and support...sometimes that is all we need from one another...helps us from feeling alone and no one understands our pain better then us...
allgood: when you tell your kids the simpler the better...and no details...unless a direct question is asked...then always tell the truth or tell them that they are asking for private info and that its not for anyone else but you and your ws....
remember keep it simple...daddy and i are separating...we have too many issues that we cannot resolve within the marriage...we (you and ws) are totally at fault for not being able to work this out it has nothing to do with any of you (the kids)...we both love you very very much...you guys are the very best part of both of us and we are so happy we have all of you....period...or something remotely like that...
and i know for you its too close coming too fast and yet its not fast enough...its that lovely rock and hard place....and i know you are kind of wishin it was just all over and done...the hard part and you are all already adjusted and getting normal...
FWH would have been very happy to have me “tied”
a really manipulative way to keep you in the marriage....the good news is that he really wants the marriage...and is manipulating to do so....which speaks volumes on what he wants....the bad news is that its very manipulative when he should be fighting with everything he has thats above board and most importantly honest and true....
m3: good luck with his ic...i gots a feelin that you is gonna need it....its bad enough when your ws talks out of both sides of his mouth...but when you have an ic that is somewhat dim....well it makes for lots of fustration....
as for baby paddy...its a yay, because she is doing better and its a nay because the extra help is always well, help....kind of like when someone is in an icu unit in a hospital, you are happy when they are in a regular room because they are getting better but sorry to see the level of care go to normal...you want them to always have the best of it all....
miracle house update:
family therapy today...it was interesting...i have to say i am somewhat disappointed that she does seem to take a bit of a laid back approach where manchilds perceptions are so skewed.....but i understand that he needs his self esteem worked on in a major way.....
she made a family suggestion...we all need to write down at least one thing good either about someone else in the family or a really positive experience and every nite or so at the dinner table read them....
we dont see her again for 3 weeks...i wish it was every week....she seems to be very busy right now...
and she told pfm and i to try and make all dealings with manchild have a postive spin...
and the best part...she said its time for me to give him some of the control where the kids are concerned....that he should be making more decisions for them...this ought to be quite interesting...and i have been handing him the reins lately on small potato stuff...and hes been deferring to me instead...yup gonna be interesting since i think his rationale on a lot of what he does is well like manchild...skewed....but like the therapist said...your kids are older now and its time pfm took a turn....me thinks there is gonna be some fireworks in the future in my house...
and during one of the convos about me and pfm in manchilds perception..manchild brought up how his dad was never happy with whatever grade if it werent a 100....like pfm would balk over a 95...the therapis said that because of all of that manchild is extra sensitive to ANY negativity...and will percieve anything that is not fun as an attack....bringing him back to those good ole days when his dad was this huge perfectionist....what a wake up call it will be when manchild learns just how imperfect his dad truly was and is....not gonna be pretty...but hopefully we can build him up so that he has something which he can fall back upon when the ground gives way from him....
dd leaves for france tomorrow....please pray she has a safe trip for her...kkk wish i could stow away in her luggage...
eta: posted before i was done...
honest: i never felt at fault in this whole mess...not one iota of nanosecond....
and the issues in a marriage within the relationship disregarding addictions and betrayals.....is 100/100.....marriage is not put in 50%...its supposed to be put in 100%...granted at times you don't have it to put in...thats when your partner is supposed to not only understand but put in 150% to help you through it...and vice versa....
make really good plans for the whole weekend...make new memories for those antiversary dates....it really does help some....
and hi dip
[This message edited by iwantamiracle at 10:54 PM, May 25th (Wednesday)]
book smarts = a whole lot of nothin in life smarts....
.manchild brought up how his dad was never happy with whatever grade if it werent a 100....like pfm would balk over a 95...
You keep getting that hit to a point that you are escaping the reality and then blame the reality.
Meanwhile, I am waiting for 10am. I called the RSPCA nearest to me (15m) and they said my town came under the catchment of another – over 30m away. I phoned and – they are closed Weds. This morning, I find that one of the dogs has come into season/heat. Crap. My guts are churning, I feel so bad about this.
[This message edited by UKgirl at 4:01 AM, May 26th (Thursday)]
Strong.... I would leave the kids out of it. Nothing more needs to be said other than your father betrayed me. Just tell them how you feel only. "I am hurting. I cry and depressed... etc" This is the advice from the pros. Your kids are having much more strong feelings than showing you. They are hurting too and they won't know what to say or do.
Strong, no matter which direction you decide, you can and will be happy again. I firmly believe in making the choice to R or D. My W wanted to S to allow me to go have sex, or “whatever”. As I look back, the reality probably was that she didn’t want the M. I took a strong position, If I S, I D.
IMO, nothing good comes from S unless you are serious about a D. In NJgal S situation, she S right away and with full intent to D. Her H did not want to lose her nor face the pain of end with her so he changed his behavior.
I have read on this board that many IC have told people to leave their spouses, and even our IC told my W to leave me. It’s not that they are taking sides. They are trying to get you to be forced to make a decision. Limbo = BAD FEELINGS
Maybe your upcoming D-day anniversary you can make your final decision. To move on in life with hope and encouragement you will find a new way of life with or without a new partner… OR.. Start the process of forgiving, work on how to pardon, accept this cheating as a basic human weakness, work on being a better spouse, take a chance on a happiness with your family intact and your H.
No matter the decision, you can have fun and be happy. The newness of men wanting you can be fun. But you can also enjoy the newness of allowing your H to romance you again. Allow him to buy you flowers.
one thing good either about someone else in the family
Peace be with you all today!
[This message edited by trynhard at 5:25 AM, May 26th (Thursday)]