You know I was just making a point... part of the or... or... or... to me includes bumping uglies with some strange just to get off. Even if you think the strange is strangely attractive, I just don't agree that it's love. Not by my definition, anyway. Opinion, but a deep one. (Yes, I live in words so I tend to argue with definitions until everyone has agreed that "clean" = no dirt under the clutter and "neat" = no clutter but not necessarily dirt-free, for example.) But.
I think a ONS can mean love. You love someone at that time, that one moment in time. That love of touch.
I would like to join in if that is ok. I do qualify. My fwh had a 2 year A with a coworker.
He is a wonderful H now but I am stuck in wondering if this R'ing work is really worth it.
Can I come aboard?
[This message edited by forever.haunted at 7:03 PM, June 6th (Monday)]
Roses....hang in there! Keep posting so we can see that you are okay.
I am almost afraid to write this for fear tomorrow I'll be back to square one, but I think my H after 2 years (dday is today) is finally "getting it." He is no longer rug sweeping. He cried Saturday morning for all the hurt he caused his family. This is a man with no emotions. Then he took a ride to talk to both my adult children about his A. He told them how he thought he was missing something, how he was always unhappy and when he was faced with how he almost lost it all, it was then that he realized just how much he loved his family, his wife and his life. How much of a fool he was and that he tries to think of ways to make it up to all of us, be he knows he never will be able to. And for that he is sad. There was lots more. Maybe IC is really helping?
I'm kind of shocked actually. Then again, today is Dday and maybe it affected him more than me? I hope it did get to him.
Hugs to the tribe
Thanks for your words. I sobbed like a baby reading them. Okay, I took "stupid" out of my sig. I still feel it, but maybe taking it out is at least a step.
Welcome. Good peeps here. Sorry you need to join the club.
Thanks all for the hugs. Rough night tonight. I think I'm going to double-up on the Xanax. My heart is just having trouble dealing with the idea that I gave my life to a man who seems to hate me.
More tears incoming. Can't see through them to type right now.
My heart is just having trouble dealing with the idea that I gave my life to a man who seems to hate me.
He may seem like he hates you, but the truth is deep inside he hates himself. ((blueroses))
Hi forever.haunted, welcome aboard, but sorry you were signed up for this particular cruise.
On the topic of A love/sex, I believe the AP selection is more about available than any love. A veneer of love may be applied later to dress up the sow's ear. Especially for a LTA I believe any real love would create a crisis to break the triangle lock of the WS-BS-OP well before the A ran years in length. The WS and OP may act in loving ways to each other, but there is no love as most would conceive it.
I sent an email earlier today trying to explain last night's meltdown - realizing I hadn't taken my ADs in two days, feeling the weight of it all come crushing back. No response from him. I waited several hours and texted that I honestly wasn't sure if this was the silent treatment, or if he was too busy to acknowledge the email. I said ok, you win (which is something he's been saying to me repeatedly since DDay).
He came back with "I can't believe you think I'm playing some sort of game..."
I sent back that I didn't know what I thought. Today's been a blur of crying and vomiting. I'm just sad, sad, sad.
Again, I waited a few hours and sent that I had hoped for some sort of supportive phone call, but I guess I shouldn't expect it.
Another two hours later, he says he's been busy getting ready for his niece's high school grad.
I've been doing fairly well on the 180 until yesterday, really. Just jumped off with both feet, and head first at that, today, I guess. It doesn;t feel very smart - turning to the man who killed me - little by little, piece by agonizing piece - for comfort.
Probably should have just gone on a posting spree here, instead of a crying jag and trying to somehow "reach" the man I married. I don't know if that man exists anywhere anymore.
Back on the train now I suppose. If dealt with grief on my own for so long, why should I expect my murderer to help me when I'm having a bad day. Seems like the definition of crazy, when you think about it.
Blue Roses: I believe we were cross posting. I'm sorry, but did you mean that your WH decided to NOT go NC with OW? If so, keep coming here and venting. We are here for you.
DOn't be too hard on yourself. We have all been there. We counted on our WS's for so many years for support and now we are realizing the charade they were playing. I still want to call WH and let out my heart to him , but pull myself back and try to self soothe or call a friend IRL or come here. Actually, I did break down a few weeks ago when we were on the phone talking about finances and started crying to him about how badly I felt. But it's ok, and just hop on the 180 train again. You are human, keep remembering that. You are doing the best you can with what you are given.
Nell: I'm the same way with words. I can actually enjoy arguing semantics. I told my mother that I have a "word lust" in terms that I enjoy the way a writer writes sometimes more than the story itself!
forever.haunted: You are more than welcome here. This is a wonderful place with very wise people who have gone through the horrendous thing called a LTA. We are all in different stages and places, some are in R, some are working toward that, some in limbo, and some heading for S/D. But we all understand the depth of the pain of a LTA and as is often said here: LTA= long time recovery.
Miracle: I'm glad that you survived the party with all the insanity that was going on. I'm also happy that your DD is home safe and sound and that she had a wonderful time. Now you are going to get ready for a graduation!!
Allgood: Don't worry about what you did. In a stupid way, it's almost like we need to be weaned off our WS. I know deep in your heart you wish that he was showing some kind of remorse of the marriage breaking up or some sign that he is getting it. He has not grown up. Some people never do. The unfortunate thing is that someday he will be sorry about all this, but it will be too late, and he will never tell you how he feels. Idiot.
M3: you are on such a turbulant roller coaster. I pray that you can find some peace and be able to make the right decision for yourself and your kids.
Ats: You are sounding more reflective lately, and I think that is a good sign. I get the feeling that you are detaching from the feeling that YOU have to save the marriage to figuring out if BOTH of you can do it together. I know you love Mrs. Ats, and I feel she is doing the best that she is able to at this time, but now I think you are coming to the point of acceptance of what is the reality, and are not too upset or angry an will be able to start to make some decisions for yourself and really focus on yourself.
Laura: I'm so glad that the EMDR is working for you. You are sounding stronger and better and better.
Strongish: You are in my thoughts and prayers. You have really chosen a good name for yourself and I really admire your strength.
NJgal: Thank you for everything and all the time and care you give us. I hope you are feeling more at peace lately. Perhaps the EMDR might help you now?
UKgirl: It's good to hear from you. Giving back the dogs is the best thing. I hear it in your posts how relieved you are. I pray that whatever choice your WH makes in regards to his job works out for the best.
Deep: Tell us some more about how it is going. Dreams are a funny thing. I had a similar dream with first xWH that kept reoccuring before he left. I kept dreaming that he was walking away and I was calling him, but he wouldn't answer.
Dreams, I feel, is the mind's way of working out problems or even sorting through the info we got that day. Our intuition often feels things we are not aware of, thus my dream of xWH walking away. As for your dream of your wife sleeping peacefully next to you, this could be wishful thinking or what you really want.
I hope I didn't forget anyone. I wish there was a feature when you are writing a "reply" that you can go back to previous pages to check on a post/s.
As for me, WH is after me about DS 16 visiting overseas for a few weeks. DS is bugging me too. I told WH that DS 12 and I are NOT going. <sigh>
I really need a break from all the drama. I know life is not fair. I know that life seldom goes smoothly and there is always something that comes up. But I really do need a break from all this craziness!!
[This message edited by honesttoafault at 8:40 PM, June 6th (Monday)]
NC with OW has never really been compltete - they still work togather on one project. Last night I told him he had a week to clean that up. I cannot deal with her name in his inbox anymore.
Now he's pissed at me, because I'm the bad guy for being hurt and angry. He's just the poor WS who "wasn't thinking," "never meant to hurt me," and "thought our M was over anyway" because I never loved him. (His perspective; not mine).
These things, however, jumped out at me:
Wow. You are in a very bad, bad place right now. Just take it one step at a time. The good thing about hitting bottom is that it can only get better.
There were a lot of things you mentioned that I have felt, in varying intensities, day to day, sometimes from hour to hour.
"thought our M was over anyway" because I never loved him. (His perspective; not mine).
My stbx' perspective as well.
No response from him. I waited several hours and texted that I honestly wasn't sure if this was the silent treatment, or if he was too busy to acknowledge the email.
O jeez. I cant even count how many times I've been through that cycle. My stbx would typically respond to my gut wrenching explanations of how I felt, etc. with simple 1-7 words answers, often missing the point.
Turning to the man who killed me...for comfort...
trying to somehow "reach" the man I married. I don't know if that man exists anywhere anymore.
I spent the better part of 1 1/2 years doing this. So, don't feel so stupid. I can't explain it, except that it's habit. Despite all of this, the WS is likely still the person you are closest to. That remains the case for me.
I really have nothing else to offer, just wanted to let you know I was thinking of you & that you do appear to beat yourself up a bit. I've done it and continue to do it as well. Personally, I know I do it so that I can fool myself into believing that I'm in control. If I'm at fault, then I can fix it. Anyway, just know that you are going to be ok. Look at how many people are affected by infidelity. We are all in different stages of healing. You are at the beginning, still trying to figure out what the Hell happened & who is your WS & what your options really are, etc. Take it easy on yourself. And know that you will get better.
Honest: I'm worried. You know why. I will leave it at that. I'm going to trust that you have this under control.
Ats: I did mean to comment earlier on your post - about the state of the marriage apart from the A. You did a really excellent job explaining the dynamic between yourself and your wife. A question for you: are you happy? You seem healed. You seem like you've processed this completely. But, I get mixed messages from your posts sometimes - I get the feeling like you've got a bag packed just in case... Idk.
Foreverhaunted: Welcome & why are you still wondering if R is worth it? What's going on? We here at LTA have enquiring minds.... And, how the Hell have you been on SI for over a year & not found us?!?
Ok. Got to go.
ETA: Nell - thank you for the definitions of clean & neat. I agree with your definitions.
My house, is neither neat, nor clean.
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 8:59 PM, June 6th (Monday)]
so you want to know if reconcilliation is worth it?
well only you can answer that question, for each of us it would mean something different depending on the life you lead, the life you had the new life you are hopefully making together...
one thing though is for sure, any relationship that is working is just that a work in progress...we never stop working on the relationships within our lives..some of them seem to come easy, those are the relationships where there are no expectations of the other....when you have expectations, needs, wants and desires especially from a partner...it takes work to make it work....
alot of us had shitty marriages before our d-days...mostly because you cannot have a successful marriage when only one person is "in" it......
there are a few who had a what they thought was a good marriage prior to d-day...but for some reason, most of us here at the lta didn't....
so what was your marriage prior to the "a" ever starting, what was it like during and what is it like now?
roses: hon, stop stop stop beating yourself up....we all believed because we were supposed to believe....in a healthy marriage you are supposed to trust and believe....and as much as some of knew we didn't have the best marriages there were certain things that we honestly believed in and thought were a given and fidelity is one of those things...our ws's when agreeing to marry us agreed to be faithful....they lied, and we believed...
now as far as nc...right now i think you need to do a hard 180...for yourself...and i think you need to begin to take care of yourself, all this vomitting is going to take a bad toll on you...please make sure you hydrate, eat simple proteins if you can and get some sleep.....the stress and the all the other shit is going to end up making you so so sick and that is something you dont need, dont deserve and need to prevent...so start taking care of you...
tryn: i disagree in a big BIG way on your take of love vs lust....the only love that is given in lust is for oneself....never another...that is not love, using another for sex is not now or ever was love...
when pfm used me as a hole it was not love, i was merely a substitute for the one HE DID love....when you perform an act of love the person on the recieving end knows it and feels it.....love is a verb and the actions required to accompany it need to be acts of love not lust....your take on it reminds me of clinton and monica...perspective....there are many people who dont believe that oral sex is sex...never mind that sex is part of the name of the act....they consider it to be minor...its not intercourse....whoopdie fuckin do...sex is sex...and sex is not always love....not even between people who are consenting adults..
fun: i am so happy that he is coming around...now listen, remember this well, no one changes overnight, he may have a few moments here and there where he slips into old habits...if the habits come back and after the fact he "sees" it, i would say your there...and in time the habits will be gone or replaced with new better, healthy habits...
it really is a blessing when they do "get it"...its amazing how important that is to us, all of us no matter the stage...
m3: i agree with honest your rollercoaster seems to be pitchin, hollerin and goin up and down so fast i dont think the rest of you has caught up....try, really try to slow your motor down, i get the sense that your mind is goin a mile a second....and by the time a minute has passed you could have reached another planet let alone another city....there is no rush, take some time...DAILY...take some time to breathe, just breathe and let yourself "be"....be still, take just 15 - 20 minutes and just be
honest: you sound stronger, i get the sense that you are getting closer towards acceptance, not any closer on losing that sadness, but i think it will come with some more time and with final acceptance...and i think if your ds stops pressuring you and your ws stays away long enough, i believe you will get there so so much faster and with a bit more ease....or as much ease as one can muster when dealing with the shittiest of the shit....
nell: i too like you def of clean and neat...i am a neat fan ,myself...mostly easy when i dont see it, my problem comes to be when i see it, however i do have a bit of loophole on that one too, i am quite forgetful too, so i will see a dustbunny, go to the room that hold the tool i need to get the dustbunny, but by the time i get to that room i would have passed through a coupple of other rooms that have other issues that i end up tending too, so that when i get to the original destination i cant remember why i am there, and then there are the times that i dont get sidetracked get to where i was goin immediately and still forget why the fuck i am there, and in those moments i feel like i have alzhiemers....but since i can remember what alzhiemers is i then self soothe, saying it cant be or else i wouldn't remember the name of that disease....the one where you forget...and then i move on to the next topic to forget... talk about a ramble explanation.... oh, no one was talkin bout a ramblin explanation....
whipering: you will get through this, we all have our days...the good ones the bad ones...any we get through them one at a time....and you've got lots of both ahead...so remember that there are good ones too ahead when the bad one come....they always seem to come, but they get less and less with time....
ah that is what i forgot...newbies:
time....that dreaded 4 letter word, we all really need time to heal, time to grieve time for anything needed to get through this process and it takes time....but the important thing to remember is that the pain doesn't last forever...as long as we are procative in our healing we will heal............
miracle front: more inlaw drama...seems to be a never ending flow..and thankfully its not directed directly at me, indirectly always, but not directly...so yay...i still gots some of that inlaw freedom...and its wonderful...
So I'll just introduce myself and say that I'm one month out from the 1 year d-day. I've had so many ups and downs this year, I'm nauseous.
The good news from this year (cause it's always nice to start with that): I'm stronger than I thought I was, I've gotten back in touch with some sexuality I had let go of, knowledge of the A propelled me to take steps in my job that now has me on what I believe is the path of my calling, I have recommitted myself to my spiritual life, my family is still intact, I believe that my WH is trying (at his ability level and love language) to make steps to R, he HATES therapy but he continues to go to IC and MC.
The bad: I STILL can be in the middle of dinner, having sex my WH, walking down the aisle of a store and have the feeling of disbelief and pain...what happened and why me, my WH is about to take a promotion that will put him back in the corporate office more with OP, the job will also require him to travel more..some of it abroad, WH has always and continues to avoid emotional conversation and intimacy....he says when we discuss the A he feels bad about himself and he's tired of always feeling bad about himself (this after I read to him a few paragraphs of Shirley Glass's book).
So one moment I feel a little hopeful. Progress is slow but he does make some statements now that he could not have discussed before. He hangs in there with therapy. But then, I also just as strongly feel that that there is no way on earth that he can be open enough to heal through this and never hurt me again. I get angry at myself for not being able to let go of this dream of having an intact family. There are times when I feel although I have been in love with him for over 20 years, it's the family dream that I cling to most of all.
Quite the into.....thanks for listening. I'll be checking back in, cause he's traveling a lot and I go SI when he travels. :)
This is not your fault. None of it is your fault. And I agree with ats – it’s self loathing being projected onto you. He sees you and sees a reflection of himself that he doesn’t like. You represent all the bad in him, all his failures and flaws and now that you know, they are magnified. You were not stupid, you were lied to. You were not stupid, you trusted and he abused that trust. You were not stupid – he was and is. So please, stop beating yourself up.
There is an article called The Process of Self Delusion:
excellent reading for anyone dealing with infidelity.
And his excuses are straight from the foggy WS book. We’ve all heard them.
Detach from him honey. Read up on the 180 and implement it. Do NOT send him messages that lay your heart open. It seems to me that he is using your hurt for his own ends and then turning it back to hurt you even more. Don’t allow it. Protect yourself, lay down your boundaries and stick to them. If he doesn’t go NC, what are you going to do? Keep moving the boundaries to let him stay?
So as soon as she is back from her post exam holiday with her friends, it will be time to sit down with her and have THE conversation I never wanted to have. No point in putting it off.
Oh my goodness!!! I’m not surprised you are shocked!! After all this time – wow. That must have taken a lot of courage for Mr nofun. I hope this is the turnaround you have been waiting for. Good news indeed. I’m so pleased for you. (((((nofun)))))
stick to your guns. Don’t let him get to you. The drama is all his. And we know he is SUCH a drama queen!
The bad: I STILL can be in the middle of dinner, having sex my WH, walking down the aisle of a store and have the feeling of disbelief and pain...what happened and why me,
For this thread, a LTA is considered to be an affair(s) that lasted for two years or more.
Although of course, anyone is welcome here to offer support, wisdom and advice.
eta - for the bold type.
[This message edited by UKgirl at 4:28 AM, June 7th (Tuesday)]
After reading your post, I think you prepare now to move on. What this means is to make sure you have all the financial records in place. If you can get control of the money somehow, make sure you hide it from you H. Can you do that? Once you have it, you need about $3500 retainer for S documents. Do you work? If not, get your resume out. One of the most rewarding things in life is working if you get the right job. When you start to take control of your life, you will feel better. Take control!
Let me tell you, in R, your spouse will say yes to R right away. They show remorse right away. They make some effort right away. If not, they are not going to R. I have read this so many times on SI.
First, I have read so much that love is not feelings. I was trained at Retrou the same. Love is action, a task, a decision, a chore, … you get what I mean. Feelings and Emotions come from our surroundings and events in our lives.
When you have a ONS, it feels good to our bodies, the feelings of lust. True, that is only feelings. It can also mean you decide to do it. You decide to love in this way.
I believe the ONS is more of a Interpersonal love. It is a more than a simple liking for another. You decide to give and receive the love of touch. I don't think you just go around F'ing anything with two legs. Some men aren't too picky I suppose....
Think about this, when I stopped to give that man in need of gasoline some help. That was not love of service? I call that an Impersonal love. That kind of love is me loving to help someone.
A marriage is a different kind of love. It is more like a “real’ love. I believe I am in what is called a “mature” love relationship right now. “Signs of mature love include acceptance, emotional support, commitment, calmness, respect, caring, kindness, friendship, and consideration. When you are together because you want to be together and not because you need to be with one another, you have a mature love.”
[This message edited by trynhard at 7:31 AM, June 7th (Tuesday)]
Join right in...
Welcome awakened by truth. It is good that your WS is in IC, and even better that he is not enjoying it. Once IC really started to work for my FWW, she started to hate the IC and the C.
allgoodnamesgone, you asked me:
A question for you: are you happy?
This is a great question, and the answer is IDK. I am not unhappy, and I am not full of cynicism and anger like I was during the A's. I am not feeling hopeless and undeserving like I was for much of the M. But is this happy?
I thought about this a lot on my ride in today. I have told FWW what behaviors and activities re-enforce our bond for me, what fills me with love. She does little bits of these things, but I do not feel as if I am a priority in her life. I think as happy as I am now, I would be no less happy alone.
I think I can be much more happy with my life. I do not know if this will be with FWW, or alone. What I see now is that FWW has put her family and work ahead of us, again. BTW, after getting home at 9:30 last night, she told me that she will not be going to her IC appointment this Friday due to work.
I am headed out of town for a few days in a few days. This will provide time for her to work out the latest crisis at work, and to visit with her sister. After that we have time with youngest DS out of the house for a couple of weeks and oldest DS working and hanging with friends.
I have been working on my LTA homework assignment to layout what an ideal M looks like to me. I do not have much of it now. I am going to lay it all out for her then, before the 4th holiday weekend. I am not angry, I just feel worn out.
Doing what is needed to make us work seems like the easiest things to me.
Put us ahead of work and other family. While I realize there will be unavoidable conflicts, cancelling our plans for work or her family should be the exception, not the norm. When we spend 10+ hours a week together I do much better.
Emotional intimacy, sharing how she feels rather than hiding truths and feelings in shame.
Physical intimacy, frequent touch. Sex 3-5 x a month rather than the <1-2 x per month it has been for a long time.
Take care of herself. Working out, and taking care of her health like she did during her As.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 7:49 AM, June 7th (Tuesday)]
So, Monday he basically went NC with me. SOP for him. He gets mad; he cuts me out, ignores me, pretends I don't exist. I should be used to it by now - hell, I was used to it pre-DDay - but I thought we were supposed to be in R.
I don't think this is what R is supposed to look like - me laying myself out for him and looking for support, him getting angry at me for needing support, then going dark in retaliation. If that is what R's supposed to look like, then I really don't want any part of it. I'd rather D and move on.
After nothing from him last night, not even a text to ask if I was okay, I'm solidly back on the fence. This isn't R; it's not even limbo - just purgatory. So, I have to decide if I can live with this until he's ready to try *real* R (which may never happen), or if I have my lawyer draw up the D paperwork. I don't think S is an option for me - it would just be more of the same, only with separate residences.
I removed the blocks on his cell (had OW's phone #s blocked) this morning. Let them talk if they want. That will send me a clear signal, anyway.
I feel numb; just dead inside. I can't muster up the energy to even cry anymore. I am drinking lots of water, but I cannot eat - (TMI alert) it won't stay with me and keeps coming right on out one end or the other.
Seeing the IC today after two weeks off (she took vacation). She asked me to give her through July to work on him before I made a firm decision. I gave my word, and unlike some people, my word does actually mean something. I'll give her the run down on what's been going on and we'll work from there.
Meanwhile, back to the 180. I wasn't doing it because I thought we were in R. Now that I recognize that as yet another lie, time to close up the shop in my heart again.
I'll try to post later this afternoon to catch up on everyone else. Sorry, my head is just too full of my own hurt right now to do much else.
Y'all are good people.